Can I expect my stove to heat my 1720 square foot ranch style house?

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You won't see the same savings as say free wood, but if you can warm the house without the aid of fans like I was able to do with my gas stove then you're looking at a significant savings in electricity which I'm assuming in CA isn't cheap. In addition, there's the intangible of greater comfort you will feel from the consistent heat of the stove. Argen, if you have old utility bills you could run numbers (how many btus and kws your furnace used) and compare that to running 32K btus @ 12-18 hours a day depending on how much you're home. For us we always had the stove off and heat real low when we weren't home. Those stoves can heat up nice & quick. We saved around $60-70 a month using the stove versus the furnace (we had a newer furnace rated at 80% efficiency) and we were MUCH more comfortable. If you're heating season is 4-5 months that's $300 or so in your pocket each year. So yes, it till take a while for it to pay for itself, but it will, and again the intangible of being more comfortable and enjoying a fire and I think all the burners here regardless of fuel primarily appreciate that!
 
philaphire said:
You won't see the same savings as say free wood, but if you can warm the house without the aid of fans like I was able to do with my gas stove then you're looking at a significant savings in electricity which I'm assuming in CA isn't cheap. In addition, there's the intangible of greater comfort you will feel from the consistent heat of the stove. Argen, if you have old utility bills you could run numbers (how many btus and kws your furnace used) and compare that to running 32K btus @ 12-18 hours a day depending on how much you're home. For us we always had the stove off and heat real low when we weren't home. Those stoves can heat up nice & quick. We saved around $60-70 a month using the stove versus the furnace (we had a newer furnace rated at 80% efficiency) and we were MUCH more comfortable. If you're heating season is 4-5 months that's $300 or so in your pocket each year. So yes, it till take a while for it to pay for itself, but it will, and again the intangible of being more comfortable and enjoying a fire and I think all the burners here regardless of fuel primarily appreciate that!

From 12/22 to 1/23 my PG&E bill was $224.04 for Gas. I used 177 Therms. Not sure how to translate that, but assuming a savings of almost 2/3 (assuming my furnace is using 80K-90K BTUs and the stove uses 32K btus), that'd be truly nice! And PGE has a 2-tier pricing system, baseline gas rates are cheaper and amounts over the baseline are priced higher, so I'd be saving BTUs priced at the higher rates. And I'd enjoy more savings in my electrical side of the bill (electricity rates in California are among the highest in the nation), because I wouldn't be incurring costs for using the furnace blower. So if I don't have to use too much electricity to boost the heat in the two back bedrooms, I should come out pretty good financially.

But for me one of the most compelling possibilities beyond financial is the comfort promised by radiant heat. I grew up in the Midwest with radiant heat, and I remember it as being SO much more comfortable than the on/off forced air heat.

Now if I could find this stove at a sale price, that'd be nice!
 
Also the silence. That forced air furnace kicking on and off can be very loud and disruptive. Since moving to a home without a forced air furnace the only sound that bothers me, if you can call it that, is the refridgerator kicking on and off. The high quality gas stoves are silent without the blowers and if you use a blower it is usually much quieter than the furnace.

Your NG stove will also work like a charm when the power goes out.
 
That's way to simplified. You will not be saving based on Btu Input/Output, because of the difference in method of heating. The furnace is a periodic run, or cycled heat, the stove is a constant output. Basically you need X amount of Btu's to heat a space. The fuel use calculator can give you an idea, but I am not the expert here. What you may want to do is contact PG&E and have them do an energy audit, calculate your losses and plusses, and give you an estimated use based on the two different appliances. We are going to tell you its an apples and oranges comparison on the use calculators. The state may also be of help, after all you have the green gov.

For sure any new appliance will give you better economy tban your existing furnace, but their may be tax advantages and special savings to use certain appliances. The Feds give rebates for certain purchases that add to energy efficiency, but that doesn't extend to wood or pellets stoves. Go figure.

As far as installation I am sure you will need to have an approved contractor touch your gas lines. That really isn't an owner install item. You may be able to do the hearth and the accessories, but the flue and plumbing are pro-only.

Where's Elk when we need him, probably having a nice round of golf.


argen said:
philaphire said:
You won't see the same savings as say free wood, but if you can warm the house without the aid of fans like I was able to do with my gas stove then you're looking at a significant savings in electricity which I'm assuming in CA isn't cheap. In addition, there's the intangible of greater comfort you will feel from the consistent heat of the stove. Argen, if you have old utility bills you could run numbers (how many btus and kws your furnace used) and compare that to running 32K btus @ 12-18 hours a day depending on how much you're home. For us we always had the stove off and heat real low when we weren't home. Those stoves can heat up nice & quick. We saved around $60-70 a month using the stove versus the furnace (we had a newer furnace rated at 80% efficiency) and we were MUCH more comfortable. If you're heating season is 4-5 months that's $300 or so in your pocket each year. So yes, it till take a while for it to pay for itself, but it will, and again the intangible of being more comfortable and enjoying a fire and I think all the burners here regardless of fuel primarily appreciate that!

From 12/22 to 1/23 my PG&E bill was $224.04 for Gas. I used 177 Therms. Not sure how to translate that, but assuming a savings of almost 2/3 (assuming my furnace is using 80K-90K BTUs and the stove uses 32K btus), that'd be truly nice! And PGE has a 2-tier pricing system, baseline gas rates are cheaper and amounts over the baseline are priced higher, so I'd be saving BTUs priced at the higher rates. And I'd enjoy more savings in my electrical side of the bill (electricity rates in California are among the highest in the nation), because I wouldn't be incurring costs for using the furnace blower. So if I don't have to use too much electricity to boost the heat in the two back bedrooms, I should come out pretty good financially.

But for me one of the most compelling possibilities beyond financial is the comfort promised by radiant heat. I grew up in the Midwest with radiant heat, and I remember it as being SO much more comfortable than the on/off forced air heat.

Now if I could find this stove at a sale price, that'd be nice!
 
1 therm = 100000 BTUs so you used 17,700,000 BTUs in Dec/Jan. In order to use the same amount of gas on a 32K BTU stove you will need to run it at high 18 hours a day (it will actually be 17,8560,000 BTUs or 179 therms [32K BTUs * 18 *31]). At least from my experience, there is a good chance you will not run it on high 18 hours a day so whatever less that number is will be your gas savings so Uncle Rich is right, assuming 2/3 savings is oversimplified. However, as I have mentioned, if you can do it without the help of fans, the real savings will be in electric as furnace fans use a lot of power.

Now this is strictly energy consumption, no one has a calculator for comfort and chances are dollar to dollar you will be more comfortable!
 
philaphire, add 30% heat loss to the ductwork and it starts looking better.
 
philaphire said:
1 therm = 100000 BTUs so you used 17,700,000 BTUs in Dec/Jan. In order to use the same amount of gas on a 32K BTU stove you will need to run it at high 18 hours a day (it will actually be 17,8560,000 BTUs or 179 therms [32K BTUs * 18 *31]). At least from my experience, there is a good chance you will not run it on high 18 hours a day so whatever less that number is will be your gas savings so Uncle Rich is right, assuming 2/3 savings is oversimplified. However, as I have mentioned, if you can do it without the help of fans, the real savings will be in electric as furnace fans use a lot of power.

Now this is strictly energy consumption, no one has a calculator for comfort and chances are dollar to dollar you will be more comfortable!

I thought my 2/3 savings supposition might be a little too simplified......!

But here is something else that might affect the savings positively. My understanding is that the Radiance has a high input of 35000 BTU and a low input of 27000 BTUs. I've assumed that once the house is pretty well heated, that I could turn the stove down to the lower rate, saving on BTU usage. OTOH, I've assumed that if I kept it set on the high input setting all the time, it would cycle on and off quite a bit, much like a regular furnace. In the first case, the BTU usage would be at least some of the time at a multiple of 27K rather than 32K, and in the second case, it wouldn't always be in a steady state. So if my assumptions are correct, (and I don't know that they are) then the savings would be greater than expected. Anyway, there's almost no way it's going to be running at full BTUs for 18 hours a day, either.

And for sure I do expect that dollar to dollar I will be significantly more comfortable.
 
BeGreen said:
$3000 sounds quite high for this stove, even with the pipes. I would expect that to be the installed price. As to self-install, check with local codes, fire marshall and your insurance company to see if this is allowed. SF can be a bit touchy about fire.

FWIW, there is one of these stoves in Hunter Green for sale on eBay for $700.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vermont-Casting...9883683QQihZ003QQcategoryZ41987QQcmdZViewItem

Got some bad news today. The Radiance in the green color that I have a preference for is priced at $2890. A portable thermostat/remote control at $160.00 and 12' of pipe at $550.00. That comes to $3600 without installation, and without adding in taxes. And I haven't counted any costs for running another gas line............. Ouch! The classic black is "only" $2387................

I think I'll call around and see if the prices vary in different parts of the country.......
 
Don't mean to add more to your palette of problems, but the costs seem to look like the costs of a very nice pellet stove and a few ton of pellets. Realizing that a P-stove can be direct vented, owner installed and in most cases not a problem for inspectors and insurance companies. With the prices of fuel "Unknown" for the next year, the costs may not be that far off. Besides solid fuel burners are nicer guys than gassers. See what happened to threads raising this issue lately.


argen said:
BeGreen said:
$3000 sounds quite high for this stove, even with the pipes. I would expect that to be the installed price. As to self-install, check with local codes, fire marshall and your insurance company to see if this is allowed. SF can be a bit touchy about fire.

FWIW, there is one of these stoves in Hunter Green for sale on eBay for $700.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vermont-Casting...9883683QQihZ003QQcategoryZ41987QQcmdZViewItem

Got some bad news today. The Radiance in the green color that I have a preference for is priced at $2890. A portable thermostat/remote control at $160.00 and 12' of pipe at $550.00. That comes to $3600 without installation, and without adding in taxes. And I haven't counted any costs for running another gas line............. Ouch! The classic black is "only" $2387................

I think I'll call around and see if the prices vary in different parts of the country.......
 
argen said:
BeGreen said:
$3000 sounds quite high for this stove, even with the pipes. I would expect that to be the installed price. As to self-install, check with local codes, fire marshall and your insurance company to see if this is allowed. SF can be a bit touchy about fire.

FWIW, there is one of these stoves in Hunter Green for sale on eBay for $700.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vermont-Casting...9883683QQihZ003QQcategoryZ41987QQcmdZViewItem

Got some bad news today. The Radiance in the green color that I have a preference for is priced at $2890. A portable thermostat/remote control at $160.00 and 12' of pipe at $550.00. That comes to $3600 without installation, and without adding in taxes. And I haven't counted any costs for running another gas line............. Ouch! The classic black is "only" $2387................

I think I'll call around and see if the prices vary in different parts of the country.......

Are all 9 dealers in the SF area coming up with this price for that stove? I thought the classic black retailed for about $1900, but perhaps I am in error.
 
sorry i missed so much of this but the other factor you really need to take into account is that the furnace is still probally going to run the goal of zone heating with a gas stove is to stop the furnace from running so frequently a btu is a btu and if the there is a certain load requiered to heat the house for a time period that is not going to chgange wether it is with the gas stove or the furnace and the loss in the duct work is creatainly important but it is also important to realize that the ditrubution of the heat quickly and more evenly is also important if the furnace fires a total of 3 times for 20 minute period and the gas stays on for four hours to do the same job what costs more to run the the stove 32,000x4=128000 vs 100,000 just something to consider it may work just fine but i have never sold a gas stove as a whole home heater and never will just my opion.
 
There's a whale of a difference between home heating in New England and San francisco. I think she'll be fine. We heated our house mostly with a pellet stove and we're about 1000 miles north.
 
BeGreen said:
There's a whale of a difference between home heating in New England and San francisco. I think she'll be fine. We heated our house mostly with a pellet stove and we're about 1000 miles north.

Well, I will not do chapter and verse, but south sound is a lot more temperate than the north bay area. But the difference is like Boston to Bangor. SF is the Banana Belt to the Puget Sound,
 
I am not saying that the stove is not going to be able to heat the house but from a cost saving stand point it may not make any diffrence and in some cases may cost more because the lack of even heat from the free standing gas stove i have spent some time out there the faimly is from the west cost nappa valley and the weather is much warmer but the cost per btu doesnt change much when you use the same fuel
 
Correct, but the heat loss through walls floors etc. is very different when it 10 degrees outside, than when it's 40. If the ductwork is uninsulated and running through a cold crawlspace or basement the cost of heating with the furnace can be significantly higher due to heat loss in the ductwork. Again we heated a 2 story 2000 sq ft home mostly with a pellet stove. Even upstairs, the heating was totally acceptable. Maybe the bedrooms were 4 degrees cooler (65 vs 69) but that was a good thing from a sleeping standpoint.
 
what does a pellet stove heating a house have to do with the cost of heating a house with gas? just wondering
 
Heat is heat. The pellet stove was a location heater, just like argen's gas stove will be. If we had natural gas, I might have installed a gas stove instead. The net btus needed would be the same.

The main similarity is that we had a gas (propane in our case) forced air system that was poorly designed and very expensive to run. I'm not disagreeing that it's possible that the forced air system she has could perhaps be upgraded for the same cost as a new stove. That is a good point. Doing so might lead to more even heating and lowered fuel bills. This would be a good idea to investigate.

But the central heating system will never give that nice glowing warmth that comes when one stands or sits in front of it. And it's really hard to watch the flames in a furnace.
 
I am learning so much from all you wonderfully helpful folks on this forum.

Perhaps it's time to summarize what I've learned at this point:

I can't be absolutely sure how comfortably the Vermont Castings Radiance will heat *all* zones in my home until I actually try it. Expect a learning curve. Expect to tinker with fans, portable heat sources, occasional use of the old gas furnace.

I'm optimistic I can expect to save some costs on lowered BTU usage, but as one contributor pointed out: if the house needs nnnK BTU's to heat it comfortably, I will still be using nnnK BTU's. Luckily, all things will not be equal. I will be saving on electricity by not using the furnace blower. I will be saving on BTU usage by no longer losing heat to cold leaky ducts in the crawl space under the house. And at around 80% efficiency in the Radiance, versus unknown but poor efficiency in my 33-34 year old gas furnace, I'm counting on savings there too.

I'll be really surprised if the stove will comfortably heat the two bedrooms at the far end of the hallway. And the Master Bathroom which is a second right turn off the hallway will probably be pretty cold. (We didn't talk about this, but I assume that warmer air doesn't turn corners that effectively, especially when at such a distance from the heat source.) So I do expect I'll need to find a way to economically supplement the temperatures in those distant rooms on an "as needed" basis during the daytime. Perhaps I'll be lucky and find a way to use fans to good effect. Otherwise, it'll get more expensive.....

I can't expect to completely retire the central forced air gas furnace. I'd like to(!), but I will almost certainly want to use it to initially warm up a cold house in the wintertime. Then let the stove take over. Hopefully, I'll figure a way to manage the Radiance so this will be seldom. Or here's another situation where the central furnace might be preferred: It's been a really cold spring here. Lots of mornings I've had to turn on the furnace to take the chill off, and then turn it off. I expect the central furnace will do a better job of providing quick temporary heat than the VC Radiance.

Now I'm in the process of checking prices. I'm already discovering significant savings can be had by looking outside my area (San Francisco Bay Area). One store in the Reno area is $300 lower than my SF area quote of $2890. (We have relatives in Reno, so that'd work out for us.) An Oregon store quotes prices around $600.00 lower. And Oregon doesn't charge sales tax either. We'll be traveling to Vancouver, BC this July in my old full sized station wagon, so I have some homework to do here, but I'm pretty sure we can stuff the stove into its 4' x 8' cargo space and save on shipping costs.

I think the thing I am MOST hoping is that the Radiance will provide a MUCH more comfortable heat in most areas of my house compared to the old forced air furnace. So even if the costs savings prove disappointing, this alone will make it worthwhile.

As for the weather in my area: As I said earlier, I live in a particularly cold microclimate of the San Francisco Bay Area. For example, my MinMax thermometer, as well as my neighbor's, measured 17 degrees on one unusually cold December night last year, while less than a half-mile away an amateur weather station in our local area recorded 24 degrees (the difference: I live in a low spot, the weather station was on a ridgetop). In San Francisco itself, it was well above freezing on that same night. So talking about weather in the San Francisco Bay Area is complicated :-)

Jan
 
BeGreen said:
Heat is heat. The pellet stove was a location heater, just like argen's gas stove will be. If we had natural gas, I might have installed a gas stove instead. The net btus needed would be the same.

The main similarity is that we had a gas (propane in our case) forced air system that was poorly designed and very expensive to run. I'm not disagreeing that it's possible that the forced air system she has could perhaps be upgraded for the same cost as a new stove. That is a good point. Doing so might lead to more even heating and lowered fuel bills. This would be a good idea to investigate.

But the central heating system will never give that nice glowing warmth that comes when one stands or sits in front of it. And it's really hard to watch the flames in a furnace.

I haven't specifically looked into the cost of buying a new gas furnace. Have only got some very general information to go by. I think the super high efficiency gas furnaces are very costly, but probably not more costly than the cost of the VC Radiance package (stove, pipes, gas line, etc.) I think a new furnace of ordinary efficiency would be less than half the cost of the VC Radiance, and would probably be considerably more efficient than my old furnace.

Here's a weblink that I came across: http://www.hometips.com/cs-protected/guides/forcedair.html. I am sure my old furnace fits the description in the first paragraph - "30% or more of their energy dollars up the furnace flue and, in doing so, each has pumped up to four tons of carbon dioxide, the "greenhouse gas," into the atmosphere every month. "

Dunno................ I've got my heart set on experiencing that "nice glowing warmth" and the ambience created by being in proximity to those flames.................
 
It wouldn't hurt to get a heating pro's assessment of the forced air system. At least then you can make an informed decision. Often the suggestion will be for upgrading the furnace, sealing ductwork and then insulating it. I would expect that if this is what you need the cost would be in the $2500-$3000 range. By the way, do you have a crawlspace or a full basement? Are rodents an issue in this area?
 
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