can a zero clearance Xtrordinair be replaced without tearing things apart?
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jtp10181 said:
Yes, I have heard this from many others. You are in the majority, to be sure. Most manufacturers of these high-efficiency fireplaces also see no problem with the air-cooled systems. All I can say is that we have seen many cases where the home owner is dissatisfied with their fireplace and come to us for help. We have noticed a direct relationship to air-cooled chimney systems and this dissatisfaction. It is a contributing factor in man cases. There is also a common problem with builders not properly insulating the chases and providing proper ventilation. On many of the fireplaces we see rust on the outer casings to varying degrees. Some are completely rusted through. This is caused by condensation in a poorly installed system, and the air-cooled chimneys contribute to this condensation far more often than a packed insulated chimney.
If we are not experiencing a lot of problems now it is easy to think things are okay. What I see is a possibility of many future problems twenty and thirty years from now. And what if they have a chimney fire? I prefer to encourage my clients to think more long-term and to adopt a "better safe than sorry" approach to their chimney. Of course, packed insulated chimneys are not perfect either. But we have experienced better results in performance, fewer customer complaints, and we anticipate a longer life from the full stainless steel than the galvanized and galvalume outer shells used on air cooled systems. In addition the packed insulated chimneys withstand chimney fires better. With these high-efficiency fireplaces we are getting pretty close to a wood stove installed into a wall. Chimney fires are more of a concern due to the possibility of user error in operation of the "wood stove".
Under ideal circumstances the air-cooled systems will work fine. User knowledge about the system will help. Yet, how many fireplaces are installed by builders with less than ideal settings? And how many users of these fireplaces really understand how they work? I think we owe our clients to give them enough information to make an informed choice. Most don't get a choice.
BTW, we still install several open fireplaces with air-cooled chimneys. We always discuss the possible problems and we think it's a bad idea. But in the end, the client gets what they want and they make an informed choice. With high-efficiency units we only use full stainless packed insulated chimney. We say no if they want air-cooled. (Besides the performance concerns we are concerned about chimney fires). A few will purchase and install the air-cooled systems themselves. But we're prepared when they come back complaining about performance or a cold wall, etc.
Too each their own, right?
Sean
Sean, what would be the disadvantage of leaving the insulation the way it is, and just going with the Exhauto approach? That way I don't need to tear the chase apart, and I know I have draft when I need it (just flip the swith on the Exhausto). Sees like a sure bet.....
rjustice4 said:
Well, nothing's a sure bet. I would call Exhausto first and make sure they agree that they have a solution for your chimney.
If you don't insulate the chase you'll have worse condensation problems than even is common for air-cooled systems. The moisture will eventually rust out your sheetmetal casings and the chimney. Not to mention, the heat loss from the home. Not insulating is a bad idea. Why so many builders cut corners here I will never know.
Sean
Thanks Sean, sounds like I really need to get a look inside the chase and see if it is insulated...
One thing I haven't been able to figure out is where combustion air comes from in these fireplace designs, is there some kind of vent that's not illustrated in their drawings....? I see cooling inlet and outlets, blower intlet and outlet, and chimney outlet....but no combustion air inlet. Do you have any idea where the combustion air comes from?
One thing I haven't been able to figure out is where combustion air comes from in these fireplace designs, is there some kind of vent that's not illustrated in their drawings....? I see cooling inlet and outlets, blower intlet and outlet, and chimney outlet....but no combustion air inlet. Do you have any idea where the combustion air comes from?
rjustice4 said:
It's a funny thing, some companies just do things differently. Contrary to what you have heard here, a mechanical air supply is used on several types of wood burning products. They just are not common in our narrow market that we spend lots of time talking about here on this forum. Most wood stoves and fireplaces will use only natural draft for the combustion air supply. But not all things work the like we expect. I hate to contradict what others here have stated. They are only trying to help. But the air supply for your fireplace does indeed come from the blower system attached below your firebox. That is one of the reasons we prefer the BIS units in our area. We have a lot of power outages. The FPX works best when there is house power. We used to tell people not to burn in power outages but the manufacturer has since stated that you can burn in power outages but keep the fires "small". The combustion air supply is split off the pressurization blower system. This technique is extremely effective and very efficient. But it has a couple of weaknesses, power outages and extreme cold weather.
Sean
...that explains why the blower is switched to shut off when you open the door to add wood to an existing fire, otherwise combustion air (and smoke) would get blown in your face.
So, when you are starting a fire (and the blower is not on, since it only switches on when things are hot) you are relying on draft to provide combustion air. In situations where draft has been compromised (such as mine), this could be a problem. Sounds like insulation (to avoid condensation), and an Exhausto to provide draft may be the solution......
So, when you are starting a fire (and the blower is not on, since it only switches on when things are hot) you are relying on draft to provide combustion air. In situations where draft has been compromised (such as mine), this could be a problem. Sounds like insulation (to avoid condensation), and an Exhausto to provide draft may be the solution......
Seaken its ok. I'm getting educated here too.
Yet no has confirmed the condition of the termination cap, or for that matter the actual chimney condition
Could it have blockage bees nest, bird's nest, creosote build up? I know for sure the whole house fan louver is a huge positive pressure leak.
Not confirmed is proper chase and bump out construction insulation and fire code sheet rock installation. Till these issues are disclosed, we can only speculate the problems.
Yet no has confirmed the condition of the termination cap, or for that matter the actual chimney condition
Could it have blockage bees nest, bird's nest, creosote build up? I know for sure the whole house fan louver is a huge positive pressure leak.
Not confirmed is proper chase and bump out construction insulation and fire code sheet rock installation. Till these issues are disclosed, we can only speculate the problems.
I have been looking at ZC woodburners including the Travis Fireplace Xtrordinaire.
I notice you are at 4000 ft elevation in Sierra Nevada mountains in northern Cal.
I seem to recall the Travis FPX manual says to "not" use outside air blower supply, and the positive pressurization feature, in "cold" climates. At your location and elevation, I would think you are in a cold climate. Travis says to install blower intake inside the house in such cases.
I also think I recall Travis manual saying to fully insulate the chase too---and I think they may even have showed insulating walls of the chimney cavity that may be inside the house as well as the cavity's outside walls. Then seal the opening around the front of the FPX unit that faces into the room.
If you do a search of the forum for "Fireplace Xtrodinaire", you will find an earlier thread or threads discussing it.
I think I read in one of the threads about common complaints of "cold air infiltration" with the FPX, and it being cause largely by the use of air-cooled chimney. or maybe it was in the "review" section of this site where users leave comments on their stoves and fireplace units.
At any rate, a few years ago it seems Travis started recommending the full insulation of all walls of chimney cavity and also sealing around front of unit----these would lessen cold air infiltration into room.
BTB
I notice you are at 4000 ft elevation in Sierra Nevada mountains in northern Cal.
I seem to recall the Travis FPX manual says to "not" use outside air blower supply, and the positive pressurization feature, in "cold" climates. At your location and elevation, I would think you are in a cold climate. Travis says to install blower intake inside the house in such cases.
I also think I recall Travis manual saying to fully insulate the chase too---and I think they may even have showed insulating walls of the chimney cavity that may be inside the house as well as the cavity's outside walls. Then seal the opening around the front of the FPX unit that faces into the room.
If you do a search of the forum for "Fireplace Xtrodinaire", you will find an earlier thread or threads discussing it.
I think I read in one of the threads about common complaints of "cold air infiltration" with the FPX, and it being cause largely by the use of air-cooled chimney. or maybe it was in the "review" section of this site where users leave comments on their stoves and fireplace units.
At any rate, a few years ago it seems Travis started recommending the full insulation of all walls of chimney cavity and also sealing around front of unit----these would lessen cold air infiltration into room.
BTB
I willl have the chimney sweeped, and everything inspected in the near future....however...
- The chimney had been swept just before I purchased the house four years ago. I've only used the fireplace aprox. 15-20 times since, and noticed the smoke problem all along. Local dealer indicates that the previous owner had the same problem since install....
- I'm in the process of confirming the presence of insulation, but after reviewing the during construction photos I don't see insulation
- Other than potential condensation issues, it seems like the Exhausto approach would solve the negative-pressure-at-fireplace-door issue. (Let air come in the louvers, it will just get sucked out the chimney by the Exhausto??)
- Elkimmeg, are you suggesting that it was code 13 years ago to insulate and rock the inside of the chase? If so, I'm pretty sure it was done - the house was built by a very reputable builder - and it was his own home. Not sure how it would have got by inspection otherwise.
- The chimney had been swept just before I purchased the house four years ago. I've only used the fireplace aprox. 15-20 times since, and noticed the smoke problem all along. Local dealer indicates that the previous owner had the same problem since install....
- I'm in the process of confirming the presence of insulation, but after reviewing the during construction photos I don't see insulation
- Other than potential condensation issues, it seems like the Exhausto approach would solve the negative-pressure-at-fireplace-door issue. (Let air come in the louvers, it will just get sucked out the chimney by the Exhausto??)
- Elkimmeg, are you suggesting that it was code 13 years ago to insulate and rock the inside of the chase? If so, I'm pretty sure it was done - the house was built by a very reputable builder - and it was his own home. Not sure how it would have got by inspection otherwise.
Thanks for the input, BTB.
Your right in pointing out "best practice" installation as of 2007. My stove was installed in 1993 when the Xtrordinair was in its infancy (had just been aquired by Travis, as I understand it), and I bet the current installation guidlines have evolved over the years. Now I'm stuck with trying to upgrade the installation (by spending a lot of money to tear things apart), and/or using an external fan (such as the Exhausto) to remedy the flawed installation.
Your right in pointing out "best practice" installation as of 2007. My stove was installed in 1993 when the Xtrordinair was in its infancy (had just been aquired by Travis, as I understand it), and I bet the current installation guidlines have evolved over the years. Now I'm stuck with trying to upgrade the installation (by spending a lot of money to tear things apart), and/or using an external fan (such as the Exhausto) to remedy the flawed installation.
rjustice4 said:
Yes, I am sure the Travis manual has evolved as operating quirks came to light over time.
For more discussion on FPX, here is one thread I found. There are several others mentioning FPX. Go to 3rd page of this thread and there is quite a bit of detail on insulating outside chase.
If you are going to have to open things up, you may as well get some good ideas on how to do things right.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/1709/
A tip on checking for existing insulation I saw just the other day in the forum----drill a small hole throught the outside siding of the chase and see if any bat material from insulation shows up twisted around the drill bit. If you find it, that could save you from tearing siding off the chase to get inside needlessly.
A few other thoughts just came to mind too. If you will be opening things up, consider if you will be able to change and reroute the blower outside air supply so it draws from inside the house instead. That would put your unit in line with current Travis recommend for "cold" climate.
Also, no one has mentioned the catalytic unit in the FPX. Since yours was an early model from 1993, it would be probably well along its lifespan if not exceeded. It may or may not contribute to the smoking problem, but now would be the time to get it cleaned or most likely replaced with new.
Hope all this info helps in decision making and problem solving.
BTB
Thanks for the input, BTB.
Good idea on the drill, I was thinking the same thing...whenever I pull a drill out of an insulated wall, along comes some insulation.
I'd also like to get an exploded assembly diagram of my model, and inspect all the parts, including the catalytic unit. In what I have left from the manual, it says you need to contact Corning for replacements...I guess it's some kind of glass....
I'll take a look at the thread. I hadn't searched FPX, only Extrordinair....
Good idea on the drill, I was thinking the same thing...whenever I pull a drill out of an insulated wall, along comes some insulation.
I'd also like to get an exploded assembly diagram of my model, and inspect all the parts, including the catalytic unit. In what I have left from the manual, it says you need to contact Corning for replacements...I guess it's some kind of glass....
I'll take a look at the thread. I hadn't searched FPX, only Extrordinair....
rjustice4 said:
Corning no longer sells these catalytic combustors. Try your local FPX dealer, or an online supplier.
Search on FPX, Xtrordinair, and Extrordinair. Maybe even Extra-ordinair and Extrordinaire. Lots of misspellings with this brand.
Don't forget to check the air inlet flap at the end of the inlet blower. Make sure it is not pinched and is swinging freely.
Sean
Go carefully with the drill near the wiring. For safety sake you might want to just pierce the surface with the drill, then use a narrow screwdriver and rotate it a few times then pull it out to see if there is insulation.
You know a clogged combustor will back up smoke and cause excessive smoke in the chamber so that everytime the door is open it will puff out
elkimmeg said:
Also, I believe Xtrordinaire has some specific manual operating instructions on when to use the bypass lever for the catalytic unit. I think it has something to do with "startup" time when building a new fire.
That is, I think there is something about setting the catalytic unit lever to "bypass" until the fire gets going good, and is nice and hot. If the cat unit is not bypassed but left "in-line" when first starting the fire, I am *guessing* the result might be some smoke spillage---even if it is a new and clean catalyitic unit.
Check the operating instructions at Travis site.
BTB
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