C550 airflow issues

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Hello, I've been reading this forum for years but this is my first post.
We have a c550 insert with a 6" SS liner for 9 years. Experienced burner who usually has no trouble getting hot fires and keeping our house at a balmy 82 degrees in the dead of winter here in NH.
Anyway.
Things were going great this season until we had the chimney cleaned 2 weeks ago.
Since then we've had air flow issues, trouble keeping logs lit unless the door is open, even dry kindling & old chunks of 2x4s as a test are not staying burning when the door is closed. It's a struggle. Our wood is a mix of 1-2 year seasoned (we cut & split it ourselves so we know) maple, oak, elm, birch. We use dry kindling to get things started but normally we have coals that just ignite whatever we throw on. (I do a lot of woodworking so my cast offs and bits are great kindling, with a combination of birch bark & the usual wood chunks & sticks that come from splitting your own stuff).

Since having it cleaned, things are not great....and trying to figure out what the heck is up with this, hubby and I have taken the air tubes out, made sure they didn't have clogs (there was a small amount of ash in 2 of them but nothing to write home about), vacuumed everything that we could access with a flexible tubing and checked with an endoscopy camera for anything obvious that might be out of place. Everything looks fine to us. We can only maneuver the camera up 6 ft into the chimney before it won't advance (it gets stuck on the ridges & it's too flexible to push). Weird colonoscopy.

So on thurs night we got a small fire going, shut the door, it dies out. Opened the door, threw on some dry dry dry, got that going which should take off like a rocket normally. Close the door... smolders. Open the door, it takes off (of course). So we think ok maybe this will stay lit. It stays lit for a couple minutes and then dies out so we play the door open/ close for a couple cycles enough to get a bit of coals. Then we put 2 medium logs in and think that maybe these will catch. Well they catch but not really. Then the door closed they smolder. So I tell hubby I want to take them out and put them in the firepit instead of leaving them in the stove. And he says leave them. So I kill the damper and they sit in there smoldering for 6 hours. I try a few times to open the door and see if it will catch. Nothing. The smoke only goes up the chimney of the door is open. Otherwise the smoke rolls down the glass and just stays in the box. Finally at 3am we called the fire dept so they can come remove the smoldering logs and check the chimney to make sure we don't have a fire starting in there so I can go to bed. They tell us not to use the stove again until we get a level 2 inspection. (I agree).

Prior to this we were getting a strange pattern on the glass from the nights previous to that (again mostly smoky burns). Normally the glass is clean after an overnight. I had cleaned it 100% about 3 days before this photo I'm attaching. The inside of the box is black now.

I am out of ideas. I tried to write the details I could think of though I'm sure I missed a clue that one of you will need.
The damper seems clear but it's almost like it's not working. Secondary air tubes? Chimney? We have a huge cap full screen so there's no way we have a racoon in there enjoying a nice chianti.

We have an appt tomorrow for a chimney company to come drop a camera down the chimney. Today we were going to try taking the surround off the stove and see if there is a reason that we can see anything out of place. Anyone have any other ideas? Thanks in advance!

 

[Todd]

Is the chimney cap clear? That’s the first thing to clog if it has a screen.

When you had it swept did they remove the baffle? I’m not familiar with your stove but if the baffle was removed sometimes it’s needed to block where the secondary air connects to the baffle so soot doesn’t get clogged in there.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Is the chimney cap clear? That’s the first thing to clog if it has a screen.

When you had it swept did they remove the baffle? I’m not familiar with your stove but if the baffle was removed sometimes it’s needed to block where the secondary air connects to the baffle so soot doesn’t get clogged in there.

The cap is clear. It's a big cap so there's a lot of coverage even though the liner/ opening is only 6". The cap is oversized to fit the chimney (it's roughly 18x36", used to be a wood burning fireplace). The screen is clean, we just had the whole thing done. When it was cleaned the baffles were indeed removed and cleaned. Hubby and I took it apart again since then to verify that there weren't any clogs.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Is the chimney cap clear? That’s the first thing to clog if it has a screen.

When you had it swept did they remove the baffle? I’m not familiar with your stove but if the baffle was removed sometimes it’s needed to block where the secondary air connects to the baffle so soot doesn’t get clogged in there.

The cap is clear. It's a big cap so there's a lot of coverage even though the liner/ opening is only 6". The cap is oversized to fit the chimney (it's roughly 18x36", used to be a wood burning fireplace). The screen is clean, we just had the whole thing done. When it was cleaned the baffles were indeed removed and cleaned. Hubby and I took it apart again since then to verify that there weren't any clogs.

 

[begreen]

Inspecting the liner is a good plan. Also, make sure that the sweep didn't leave a pile of soot and sote sitting on the top of the baffle, effectively blocking the exit to the flue collar.

 

[stoveliker]

If the exhaust is partially blocked, one would expect that smoke rolls out of the stove when the door opens.
Instead when you open the door, things take off and a lot of air flows up the flue, if I understand correctly.

Hence I would suggest to look at the other side: can sufficient air get into the stove.
Do you have an outside air connection?

If not, Does it work well if you open a window while the stove door is closed?

If yes, your stove is likely fine.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Inspecting the liner is a good plan. Also, make sure that the sweep didn't leave a pile of soot and sote sitting on the top of the baffle, effectively blocking the exit to the flue collar.

The baffle was removed during the cleaning and hubby and I removed the baffles & air tubes again since then to make sure they were seated correctly and put them back in, and put an endoscopy camera 6 ft up as well as a flexible vacuum tubing so we know it's not ash or a clog. My only thought is did the liner get bumped out of whack higher up where we can't see? Inside of the stove, air tubes and as far into the secondary air channel as my flexible tube could reach were all cleaned by me with the super sucking vacuum the other day so all debris that's reachable was removed.

Looking forward to seeing what the camera drop from above will show.

 

[begreen]

This is an insert, no outside air connection. It sounds like reduced draft. Maybe not enough to cause smoke rollout, but enough that secondary combustion is not happening. That's my hypothesis, but there could be other issues like a tear in the liner or the connection to the insert is leaky.

Edit: Sawdust and I posted at the same time. Looks like the liner inspection is next.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Hubby wondered that too, could cleaning have jostled the connection between "stove pipe" (not sure what else to call it) and liner. Not sure how much overlap these 2 things are supposed to have. Also not sure if i have a block off plate or not (i see this mentioned a lot in the forum)

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

This is an insert, no outside air connection. It sounds like reduced draft. Maybe not enough to cause smoke rollout, but enough that secondary combustion is not happening. That's my hypothesis, but there could be other issues like a tear in the liner or the connection to the insert is leaky.

Edit: Sawdust and I posted at the same time. Looks like the liner inspection is next.

Another thing to mention. Smoke stays in box until door is open then it goes up chimney. If door is left open then smoke comes in house instead of up chimney.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

If the exhaust is partially blocked, one would expect that smoke rolls out of the stove when the door opens.
Instead when you open the door, things take off and a lot of air flows up the flue, if I understand correctly.

Hence I would suggest to look at the other side: can sufficient air get into the stove.
Do you have an outside air connection?

If not, Does it work well if you open a window while the stove door is closed?

If yes, your stove is likely fine.

Smoke goes up chimney initially when door opens then comes into house if door remains open but fire gets going again. Open window doesn't make a difference (we've been opening them to let the smoke out).

 

[begreen]

Something is affecting draft. A top down inspection is warranted.

 

[stoveliker]

Smoke goes up chimney initially when door opens then comes into house if door remains open but fire gets going again. Open window doesn't make a difference (we've been opening them to let the smoke out).

Okay. Then I agree it's a draft.issue.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Okay. Then I agree it's a draft.issue.

Something is affecting draft. A top down inspection is warranted.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

We are waiting for the guy to come do the inspection. In the meantime we were able to get our camera up into the junction of the stove & liner to check that out. Found the seams between the 2 are "leaky" to say the least. Actually the photo shows gaps that go almost all the way around. 😬

 

[begreen]

Pull the surround for a better view of how they were connected.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, air leaking in will kill the suction that the chimney is able to impart in the insert.
But those slits might or might not be leaks (the other end of the overlapping parts might seal sufficiently.

Good to have a more direct look indeed as suggested.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I have the 550 and have swept/maintained it for yrs. The surround is easy to take off (a little heavy) but not too bad. Putting it back is mildly annoying and you may need your foot to help guide bottom of surround back in bottom part. It’s a bit of a brief workout.

Post some pics of the liner-to-stove connection after you take the surround off. Also, did you happen to notice if the Cotter pin was installed and that liner/appliance adapter was appearing secured when you took the baffles out? I’m just trying to think of things that could potentially pop loose after a sweeping.

If you’re confident you personally put the baffle and tubes back in correctly and you have the same issue, you can probably rule that out ( baffle misalignment was my first guess to your issue.).

I’ll be curious to see what is causing your issue and it getting resolved.

 

[begreen]

Thanks Ctw, I was hoping you would check in on this Rockland post.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

We took the face off. Interesting stuff not sure how it got this way all of a sudden, it doesn't seem like this would be a result of cleaning. We put a flashlight inside the pipe and looked for the light coming through. There's some gaps and a pinhole in the pipe. Photo shows pinhole from both angles (light coming through and actual pipe outside) Could this be our culprit?

Guy never showed to do the chimney inspection. Wtf? So hard to find good help these days. We found someone else who can come 12/2. I want to make sure these are the only problems. And I don't know if we can fix this ourselves, or how complicated it is.

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Also we realized there's a huge gap between the liner and sheet metal that they used to block the rest of the chimney which had a huge draft blowing down yesterday while we were in the room with the face off. Can we put some Roxul in that gap? We realized that the only thing "insulating"the draft from coming into the room is the surround (the fireplace opening extends about 3-4" on both sides of the stove box)

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, roxul is fine

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

This picture should have been attached with the others above. And also I am attaching a Pic of what I think(???)is the part we need that had the hole in it

 

[Sawdustinmydrawers]

Ok so I don't think we need that part, i think it's the next part in line which would be the flex flue adapter? I think that's what has the hole in it? Is this a jotul specific part of just a generic word stove part?

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I could be wrong, but I wonder if there’s something wrong with that appliance adapter. I see that because it appears that there is light shining through it in places that I would not expect.

I would expect a little bit of light to get through between where that ribbed end connects into the stove collar, but it appears that there may be some sort of gap or slit just above that ribbed section. I could also be looking at a reflection so it could be an optical illusion that I’m looking at, but it does look off. At the very least, it does look like it was sort of muscled in there, as seen by that bend in the middle front of it in your picture.

Another thing I noticed about that appliance adapter is that it doesn’t appear to be very well seated into the stove. I’m not sure if that’s something that happened during the original installation or if something was loosened up during the recent sweeping. By chance, were you able to confirm if that Cotter pin was installed when you look inside the stove towards the flue opening?

Are you thinking that the pinhole is in the liner itself or that adapter piece?