Bye Bye Coal

[Nealm66]

I drove through some massive windmill farms in Idaho and Oregon helping a buddy move back here from Utah. I think they had some of the mills shut down for whatever reason. Quite a sight. Seen some big solar farms as well but not mind boggling like the windmill farms. A semi hauling one of those propellers was stopped along the freeway and really gives the best prospective of how huge those things are. Done see many on this side of the mountains. Definitely not as windy. Not much for solar panels either. Probably not enough sunshine. Lots of dams though. The one coal plant I knew of in centralia basically shut down but I think they built a new one some years back but I bet they’re feeling the pain if they’re still in business

 

[bholler]

The Lasting Damage of the Tennessee Coal Ash Spill

Six months later, scientists have a better idea the full impact of the December 2008 coal ash spill

www.scientificamerican.com

Here's a result of burning coal. I live very close to a TVA fossil fuel power plant that burned coal for decades. They finally converted it to natural gas. What people don't think about beside the air pollution is the coal ash that's left and what to do with it. Looking across the river from just down the road from me people see this beautiful hillside covered in grass. What few know is that hillside is actually a huge hill of coal ash covered in a layer of soil that they planted grass on. It's another disaster waiting to happen just like the one in the link. Of course the hill is being monitored but common sense tells you that the poisons are going to leach into the ground water and the river eventually.

They filled an old water reservoir with coal ash here

 

[armanidog]

We have 3 coal fired plants in Georgia still chugging along. There were 10 coal fired plants to start with.
Now there are 15 natural gas generating plants, 3 oil fired plants, 7 small plants that use landfill gas, 2 nuclear plants, and 8 solar panel farms.

List of power stations in Georgia (U.S. state) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Eman85]

We have 3 coal fired plants in Georgia still chugging along. There were 10 coal fired plants to start with.
Now there are 15 natural gas generating plants, 3 oil fired plants, 7 small plants that use landfill gas, 2 nuclear plants, and 8 solar panel farms.

List of power stations in Georgia (U.S. state) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The hard sell about eliminating coal is the jobs lost. The coal plant near me that they converted to natural gas employed a lot of people plus the support jobs outside of the plant. mining and burning coal is still labor intensive despite the automation. Plenty of resistance to change just because of the jobs lost issue.

 

[peakbagger]

Eversource the utility in NH had a couple of coal burners until a few years back when they had to divest all theri power plants. They sold them off to hedge fund for cheap and let the ratepayers make up the difference in the book cost. The hedge funds had to effectively guarantee they would run for three years. They do crank them up for hot and cold spells and pay the bills with capacity payments. There was at least one event this winter where ISO the regional grid operator claimed that without them running, ISO may have had to go into load shedding. At least they are clean plants, one in particularly had a $460 million dollar emissions upgrade to meet the MACT standards in 2019.

 

[begreen]

The hard sell about eliminating coal is the jobs lost. The coal plant near me that they converted to natural gas employed a lot of people plus the support jobs outside of the plant. mining and burning coal is still labor intensive despite the automation. Plenty of resistance to change just because of the jobs lost issue.

Indeed, that can be the case. Unfortunately, the lack of alternative jobs often can be traced to vested interests holding back development and training. In some states, this goes up to the highest levels.

 

[Eman85]

At least they are clean plants, one in particularly had a $460 million dollar emissions upgrade to meet the MACT standards in 2019.

The infamous clean coal. No matter what they spend or put on the plant it's still not clean, see my post about the coal ash. Kind of like the clean woodstoves we all burn.

 

[peakbagger]

I hope you are not equating coal ash with the ash from wood fires?

 

[Eman85]

I hope you are not equating coal ash with the ash from wood fires?

No, I well understand coal ash if you see my other post. I'm equating the wishful thinking of clean coal and clean wood stoves.

 

[bholler]

No, I well understand coal ash if you see my other post. I'm equating the wishful thinking of clean coal and clean wood stoves.

But clean woodstoves really are pretty clean.

 

[Eman85]

But clean woodstoves really are pretty clean.

Pretty clean! The stove pipe stays cleaner. Even with a catalytic wood stove my splitter and my chainsaws burn a lot of dirty fuel along with my tractor and lawn tractor that move the wood. Reality sucks, unfortunately I'm a realist and this ain't going to work out well in the long run if we don't change. Back in elementary school I learned that humans need air and water to live, humans have pretty much screwed up the air and the water. With no real change in sight I don't see how this ends well.

 

[peakbagger]

Depending on your age, in the US the environment has probably improved substantially since you were a kid. I grew up in the sixties and seventies when rivers were still used as open sewers. There were only minimal air pollution limits for boilers and power plants. Acid rain from sulfur and nitrogen were making rainwater acidic especially in the northeast. High altitude softwood forests were dying off and ponds were too acid for fish. Atmospheric mercury from power plants mostly coal (some from #6 fuel oil) was significant, in northern new england in areas with barely any roads let alone population there were (and still are) fish consumption advisories from Mercury raining down into the environment. The deposition has dropped substantially but once in the ecosystem it will take a long time to ramp down but it is ramping down. The clean water act cleaned up rivers big time, the local rivers which were hit hard from Pulp and Paper mills are now swimable, Acid rain is no longer a major issue. Boiler MACTrules forced many coal burner to either shut down or clean up their Mercury. The EPA has wanted regulate coal ash for years but there was and still is major coal lobby supported by politicians who own or recieve a lot of money from what is left of the coal industry.

It all comes down to what folks want to hear and that the only way things get better is make it crisis.

 

[old greybeard]

Coal sucks, and glad it’s being phased out. But lets stop pretending wind and solar are pure. Huge environmental impacts and issues with recycling, and heavy social costs.
Drop all subsidies for all of them. Nukes and NG are the cleanest, NG is cheapest, and if we continue to build out our demand NG is the only source that can be quickly built out with immediate payoffs. But that doesn’t meet the agenda, and we’re only allowed to promote things that meet the allowed political discussions.

Btw our electric generation costs just dropped 20% here in PA. Thanks to NG prices dropping, expect further drops if they don’t start ww3

 

[bholler]

Pretty clean! The stove pipe stays cleaner. Even with a catalytic wood stove my splitter and my chainsaws burn a lot of dirty fuel along with my tractor and lawn tractor that move the wood. Reality sucks, unfortunately I'm a realist and this ain't going to work out well in the long run if we don't change. Back in elementary school I learned that humans need air and water to live, humans have pretty much screwed up the air and the water. With no real change in sight I don't see how this ends well.

I don't know about you but I honestly only use about 20 gallons of fuel in equipment to move and process my wood. To me that's pretty good. I honestly can't think of many other heating options that are closer to carbon neutral.

 

[bholler]

Coal sucks, and glad it’s being phased out. But lets stop pretending wind and solar are pure. Huge environmental impacts and issues with recycling, and heavy social costs.
Drop all subsidies for all of them. Nukes and NG are the cleanest, NG is cheapest, and if we continue to build out our demand NG is the only source that can be quickly built out with immediate payoffs. But that doesn’t meet the agenda, and we’re only allowed to promote things that meet the allowed political discussions.

Btw our electric generation costs just dropped 20% here in PA. Thanks to NG prices dropping, expect further drops if they don’t start ww3

Are we also going to drop all subsidies for fossil fuels as well? All of the other energy options have huge environmental and social impacts as well

 

[Eman85]

Depending on your age, in the US the environment has probably improved substantially since you were a kid. I grew up in the sixties and seventies when rivers were still used as open sewers. There were only minimal air pollution limits for boilers and power plants. Acid rain from sulfur and nitrogen were making rainwater acidic especially in the northeast. High altitude softwood forests were dying off and ponds were too acid for fish. Atmospheric mercury from power plants mostly coal (some from #6 fuel oil) was significant, in northern new england in areas with barely any roads let alone population there were (and still are) fish consumption advisories from Mercury raining down into the environment. The deposition has dropped substantially but once in the ecosystem it will take a long time to ramp down but it is ramping down. The clean water act cleaned up rivers big time, the local rivers which were hit hard from Pulp and Paper mills are now swimable, Acid rain is no longer a major issue. Boiler MACTrules forced many coal burner to either shut down or clean up their Mercury. The EPA has wanted regulate coal ash for years but there was and still is major coal lobby supported by politicians who own or recieve a lot of money from what is left of the coal industry.

It all comes down to what folks want to hear and that the only way things get better is make it crisis.

I'm old and fully aware. I live in one of the last places they still get away with crapping everywhere as long as they spread some money to sweeten the deal. People don't want to know about how bad it is until it does become a crisis so the Federal Gov't has to pay. I lived near the Pigeon River when it looked like root beer flowing, they hung barrels from the bridges to knock the foam down. Same county had a superfund site right in town from an old tannery. I live near Eastman Chemical now where we get trainloads of hazardous chemicals through every day and they always have the accidental spill in the Holston River once or twice a year. I also live where in a rural area I cannot have a well due to toxic chemicals that were dumped that no one is cleaning up. I was in LA when you couldn't breathe and you could see the air.
We will break our arms patting ourselves on our backs. reality, my woodstove my chainsaws, tractor lawnmowers and vehicles won't pollute as much as we did shooting down 1 balloon.

 

[bholler]

I'm old and fully aware. I live in one of the last places they still get away with crapping everywhere as long as they spread some money to sweeten the deal. People don't want to know about how bad it is until it does become a crisis so the Federal Gov't has to pay. I lived near the Pigeon River when it looked like root beer flowing, they hung barrels from the bridges to knock the foam down. Same county had a superfund site right in town from an old tannery. I live near Eastman Chemical now where we get trainloads of hazardous chemicals through every day and they always have the accidental spill in the Holston River once or twice a year. I also live where in a rural area I cannot have a well due to toxic chemicals that were dumped that no one is cleaning up. I was in LA when you couldn't breathe and you could see the air.
We will break our arms patting ourselves on our backs. reality, my woodstove my chainsaws, tractor lawnmowers and vehicles won't pollute as much as we did shooting down 1 balloon.

I am confused what your argument here is

 

[semipro]

Depending on your age, in the US the environment has probably improved substantially since you were a kid. I grew up in the sixties and seventies when rivers were still used as open sewers. There were only minimal air pollution limits for boilers and power plants. Acid rain from sulfur and nitrogen were making rainwater acidic especially in the northeast. High altitude softwood forests were dying off and ponds were too acid for fish. Atmospheric mercury from power plants mostly coal (some from #6 fuel oil) was significant, in northern new england in areas with barely any roads let alone population there were (and still are) fish consumption advisories from Mercury raining down into the environment. The deposition has dropped substantially but once in the ecosystem it will take a long time to ramp down but it is ramping down. The clean water act cleaned up rivers big time, the local rivers which were hit hard from Pulp and Paper mills are now swimable, Acid rain is no longer a major issue. Boiler MACTrules forced many coal burner to either shut down or clean up their Mercury. The EPA has wanted regulate coal ash for years but there was and still is major coal lobby supported by politicians who own or recieve a lot of money from what is left of the coal industry.

Agreed that things do seem better at first glance.
I'd argue though that the environmental quality problems we face now are much more insidious and challenging.
CO2 and heat in the air and oceans and waterborne contaminants like PFAS and endocrine disrupters, plus microplastics can't be easily seen, felt, or smelled and they are much harder to deal with. Things are not what they seem using outdated criteria like "will the river ignite".
I don't think we should fool ourselves into thinking we're on the right trajectory when it comes to preserving the earth for future human habitation, especially with a growing global population entitled to an improved "quality of life" based on resource consumption.

 

[old greybeard]

Are we also going to drop all subsidies for fossil fuels as well? All of the other energy options have huge environmental and social impacts as well

Did I mumble when I said “all”

 

[old greybeard]

Agreed that things do seem better at first glance.
I'd argue though that the environmental quality problems we face now are much more insidious and challenging.
CO2 and heat in the air and oceans and waterborne contaminants like PFAS and endocrine disrupters, plus microplastics can't be easily seen, felt, or smelled and they are much harder to deal with. Things are not what they seem using outdated criteria like "will the river ignite".
I don't think we should fool ourselves into thinking we're on the right trajectory when it comes to preserving the earth for future human habitation, especially with a growing global population entitled to an improved "quality of life" based on resource consumption.

Pollution, plastic, chemicals, drugs put into the water from our non stop taking medications. All are more detrimental to the planet than possible climate change.

 

[bholler]

Did I mumble when I said “all”

I took it as all of the ones you were talking about instead of all energy options. But I can see it the other way as well.

 

[bholler]

Pollution, plastic, chemicals, drugs put into the water from our non stop taking medications. All are more detrimental to the planet than possible climate change.

The planet yes probably. Those of us inhabiting the planet probably not

 

[begreen]

The planet yes probably. Those of us inhabiting the planet probably not

If the inhabitants include all flora and fauna, of which we are a tiny minority, then they definitely are affected. The species extinction rate in the past century is off the charts. That too is finite.

 

[bholler]

If the inhabitants include all flora and fauna, of which we are a tiny minority, then they definitely are affected. The species extinction rate in the past century is off the charts. That too is finite.

Absolutely but to be fair some of those extinctions are from direct pollution habitat loss due to humans and many other factors (almost all caused by us). But yes as climate change gets worse it will effect all life on our planet drastically

 

[begreen]

Yes, most of the extinction is due to human activities.

It's arrogant to think that this can go on much longer.

Exclusive: Huge chunk of plants, animals in U.S. at risk of extinction

A leading conservation research group found that 40% of animals and 34% of plants in the United States are at risk of extinction, while 41% of ecosystems are facing collapse.

www.reuters.com