Burning Issues is after the Webmaster!
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WOW!
I'm not even going to comment on her response... but I bet she's a lot of fun at a party :roll:
Goose... maybe you should send her a personal invitation.....
I'm not even going to comment on her response... but I bet she's a lot of fun at a party :roll:
Goose... maybe you should send her a personal invitation.....
Harley said:
Crap, Harley, don't encourage, or I will have to seriously pen a sign on the cardboard to be there.
Well guys that's it I'm not going to get a stove. As a two pack a day smoker, I just dont think my body can handle 18 times the damage I'm doing to it now.
Also, what type of car is she talking about? One stove equals a car traveling 34,000 km in a day. That stove must have a 24" flue on it to ingest the volume of air in a day that it takes a car do in a years worth of driving. But, I'm not going to take any chances with the Earth. I'm going to strap a horse horse to the front of my convertible eclipes and let him pull me around. With any luck, he'll take a dump in front of Sophia's house.
Also, what type of car is she talking about? One stove equals a car traveling 34,000 km in a day. That stove must have a 24" flue on it to ingest the volume of air in a day that it takes a car do in a years worth of driving. But, I'm not going to take any chances with the Earth. I'm going to strap a horse horse to the front of my convertible eclipes and let him pull me around. With any luck, he'll take a dump in front of Sophia's house.
karl said:
Excuse me, is that 24K per day car available, legally I mean? I'd like to do some special deliveries that can't go by air.
Man, Sophia is a tough read. I guess she missed the class where they discussed paragraphs. And good lord, what the hell is she talking about?
Many of her "points" and "hard numbers" look like they were taken from ELF protest posters or the remnants of ELF "environmental action" graffiti. That's when some expensive profit oriented property or research laboratory is vandalized or outright destroyed in the name of "I know better than you", uh, I mean the environment.
I believe psychologists refer to this as a delusion of grandeur. And by the way, don't they usually use fire as a means of burning things to the ground? There's got to be some serious dioxin release from a burning building. But it's a symbolic gesture, isn't it? It's not about reality. It's about morality, and vague moral ideals spinning around in troubled heads, and who looks best when viewing the world under the narrow vision of a microscopically defined ecological niche. What is missing is the big picture. And it's missing big!
The one good thing you can say about Sofia is that she seems seriously concerned about her misconceptions. Unfortunately, she has summarily identified and dismissed all of us, and most of the rest of the industrializing world, as her morally evil, rampantly ignorant, childishly self consumed, and woefully uneducated enemy.
Hmmm. I've heard it said that "we like least in others that which we like least in ourselves". That "we project our thoughts and emotions onto others to distance ourselves from the the painful awareness that they are actually lurking deep in the recesses of our frightfully complex psyches". That "life is as we are". So, take a look in the mirror Sofia, you just might be talking about, describing, and condemning yourself, not us. Do you live in a teepee? Do you eat dandelions and pump and carry water by hand? Or do you drive an oil gobbling car, work (or have ever worked) for an evil fossil carbon fuel gobbling company, flip a switch or turn a handle for utilities, and keep your house conveniently warm in winter and cool in summer via an evil, fossil carbon fuel gobbling HVAC unit?
Maybe Sophia lives with Al Gore? Maybe that's why his carbon foot print is 40 times that of the average Hearthnet member? But that would effectively make Sophia's foot print zero, wouldn't it? Al's good karma would create a mathematical carbon wash for those engulfed in his aura. I know, I know, it's ok for Al to do whatever he likes as long as he says what Sophia wants to hear, huh? But isn't that hypocritical? Isn't Sophia perhaps hypocritical? Sophia should look deeply at herself before condemning us, and others. She'd stand morally higher and get a lot more respect for her efforts. She might even learn something in the process. But it's a lot more work than looking down her nose and morally condemning a world that she must feel is far beyond her ability to influence, so she better roll up her sleeves and get to it. She could start by reading some Hearthnet posts, getting to know us as people instead of losers, and stop blithering a bunch of vague or controversial statistics.
Talk about over generalizations and arrogance! If only a fraction of her accusations are correct, we should all jump into our stoves and self immolate for the betterment of mankind and likely for her personal satisfaction, which is probably more important based upon her obvious need to feel morally superior to 99% of the planet.
Nice response Craig.
Many of her "points" and "hard numbers" look like they were taken from ELF protest posters or the remnants of ELF "environmental action" graffiti. That's when some expensive profit oriented property or research laboratory is vandalized or outright destroyed in the name of "I know better than you", uh, I mean the environment.
I believe psychologists refer to this as a delusion of grandeur. And by the way, don't they usually use fire as a means of burning things to the ground? There's got to be some serious dioxin release from a burning building. But it's a symbolic gesture, isn't it? It's not about reality. It's about morality, and vague moral ideals spinning around in troubled heads, and who looks best when viewing the world under the narrow vision of a microscopically defined ecological niche. What is missing is the big picture. And it's missing big!
The one good thing you can say about Sofia is that she seems seriously concerned about her misconceptions. Unfortunately, she has summarily identified and dismissed all of us, and most of the rest of the industrializing world, as her morally evil, rampantly ignorant, childishly self consumed, and woefully uneducated enemy.
Hmmm. I've heard it said that "we like least in others that which we like least in ourselves". That "we project our thoughts and emotions onto others to distance ourselves from the the painful awareness that they are actually lurking deep in the recesses of our frightfully complex psyches". That "life is as we are". So, take a look in the mirror Sofia, you just might be talking about, describing, and condemning yourself, not us. Do you live in a teepee? Do you eat dandelions and pump and carry water by hand? Or do you drive an oil gobbling car, work (or have ever worked) for an evil fossil carbon fuel gobbling company, flip a switch or turn a handle for utilities, and keep your house conveniently warm in winter and cool in summer via an evil, fossil carbon fuel gobbling HVAC unit?
Maybe Sophia lives with Al Gore? Maybe that's why his carbon foot print is 40 times that of the average Hearthnet member? But that would effectively make Sophia's foot print zero, wouldn't it? Al's good karma would create a mathematical carbon wash for those engulfed in his aura. I know, I know, it's ok for Al to do whatever he likes as long as he says what Sophia wants to hear, huh? But isn't that hypocritical? Isn't Sophia perhaps hypocritical? Sophia should look deeply at herself before condemning us, and others. She'd stand morally higher and get a lot more respect for her efforts. She might even learn something in the process. But it's a lot more work than looking down her nose and morally condemning a world that she must feel is far beyond her ability to influence, so she better roll up her sleeves and get to it. She could start by reading some Hearthnet posts, getting to know us as people instead of losers, and stop blithering a bunch of vague or controversial statistics.
Talk about over generalizations and arrogance! If only a fraction of her accusations are correct, we should all jump into our stoves and self immolate for the betterment of mankind and likely for her personal satisfaction, which is probably more important based upon her obvious need to feel morally superior to 99% of the planet.
Nice response Craig.
/Open "Mo_Quote.hearthpost"
/Display byte_count: "Bytes in = 434"
/Execute translate.exe
/Print "results.out"
"Sophia, you ignorant slut!"
/Display byte_count: "Bytes in = 434"
/Execute translate.exe
/Print "results.out"
"Sophia, you ignorant slut!"
I've received another e-mail from Sophia entitled "Education for your advancement. With sincere hope that you can see the truth." I'm unable to open the attachment which is in a Word 97 notepad format. There is also this link in the e-mail http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=Remedies+For+Spring+Allergies&mkt=en-ca&FORM=SERNEP. ??? hmm.. I guess at this point I'm beginning to believe, as Brother Bart alludes to, that Sophia is a kind of troubled person, someone a little off the beaten path of humanity. As such, it's hard to make any meaningful response or draw any intelligent conclusions from her rants. Kind of sad. But her tyrade has had me thinking because at the basis of her outbursts are some facts. I for one would not want to be inhaling large quantities of wood smoke. The relevant links of Burning Issues point to the type of items we all need to be concerned with in burning wood, coal, oil, gas, I guess most anything. After all, it is hard to have conbustion without pollutants. With that said, I applaud all of you here who have helped me become much more aware of how to minimize the pollution my stove produces. I live in a rural area of New Hampshire, I'm not in a valley subject to temperature inversion based pollution. I imagine the "no burn days" in the West are needed, and the conditions caused by lots of wood burning, especially poor wood burning, in such situations could be quite unhealthy. So as I try to keep an open mind and consider the legitimet basis for Burning Issues concerns, I also have to think that in the big picture, these are small issues. There are so many other fish to fry, all of them far bigger than wood burner pollution, that it's hard to imagine that the Burning Issues concerns can really be considered by rational people as, well.. a burning issue. Also while many of the studies they site point to this or that nasty produced by wood burning, the studies generally lack real life context in relation to what wood burners or their neighbors actually experience here in the US. I don't mean to be dismissive of their concerns. The good work you all do here at Hearth.com is important and necessary in part because of concerns like this. I just don't think their concerns are the important issues we as a society need to deal with. And as I stated in my original response to Sophia, in balance with the benefits, I think most rational people could see that the drawbacks are offset by the gains. After my brief foray into "Burning Issues" its MHO that its a cause without a future.
Harley said:
If you'll promise to bring the straightjacket and the gag I reckon it would be possible - I will need an e-mail address...
If we get a confirmation, we can have a charcoal grill comparison to make her feel at home %-P I think I can provide at least three grills plus the turkey fry burner, not to mention the citronella powered Tiki torches, bug buckets and other mosquito smoking devices...
Or I can fire up my bee smoker - that puts out far more smoke than my woodstove!
Gooserider
I glanced through the Heath Canada report on BI (Woodsmoke Health Effects : A review).
It seems to point out that no, breathing wood smoke is not a good thing. (Then again, I don't think I want my toddler to stick his face in the exhaust from the oil furance either.)
What I would like to see is a fair comparison of different fuels as used in nominal appliances. In the Health Canada report, they only showed a comparisons of fuels as used in Indian cookstoves (note to self (and Uncle Rich) - stop using dung in the cookstove!).
I find it odd that BI seems so hung up with the fine particulate issue. The combustion of oil or gas may result in fewer large particules, but what about their other components of combustion? The micro particulates are an issue, but only one issue, when comparing different fuels (am I correct in this?). Or are micro particulates the most dangerous/only component of the exhaust?
It seems to point out that no, breathing wood smoke is not a good thing. (Then again, I don't think I want my toddler to stick his face in the exhaust from the oil furance either.)
What I would like to see is a fair comparison of different fuels as used in nominal appliances. In the Health Canada report, they only showed a comparisons of fuels as used in Indian cookstoves (note to self (and Uncle Rich) - stop using dung in the cookstove!).
I find it odd that BI seems so hung up with the fine particulate issue. The combustion of oil or gas may result in fewer large particules, but what about their other components of combustion? The micro particulates are an issue, but only one issue, when comparing different fuels (am I correct in this?). Or are micro particulates the most dangerous/only component of the exhaust?
That's the prob with statistics. No one is saying that everyone should burn wood. I personally would like to see OWB's in their present form banned, as well as stricter controls on open fireplaces....also on agricultural burning such as in FL. - but these folks take every worst case and then project it across the board.
They, of course, do not calculate all the dead people in the Iraq war as a part of their "clean" oil, nor do they set their sights on coal and the complete mountaintop removals and water/air pollution.
She did send me another email, but it is not worth repeating...personal attacks, etc. ----- I asked her what she is REALLY doing other than whining to accomplish her goals. She will not answer that...because obviously all she is doing is talking.
The funny thing is that in the normal course of action, I would be on the same side as her! But anytime someone is so unreasonable, it makes them full of chit IMHO. They don't get anything done that way.
Not to bring other matters into this, but it is similar to a lot of the debates about immigration, pollution, energy, etc......that being that you have to START with the situation as it exists NOW, and not apply the "perfect world" scenario as if you (or I) were the only one on the planet.
I watched a bit of "who killed the electric car" yesterday, and the guy who invented the most modern battery technology made a great summary at the end as he showed the camera crew around his new PV Solar factory. He said "If you want to be a true revolutionary today, don't pick up a gun...rather use science and technology to clean up the world".....or something like that! I couldn't agree more. I have always held that the guy who tweaks another 1% out of the internal combustion engine or who engineers the hybrid is the REAL person who changes the world. Not to advocate lack of personal responsibility....we need that too. But the charge must be led by science, technology, industry and proper policy.
They, of course, do not calculate all the dead people in the Iraq war as a part of their "clean" oil, nor do they set their sights on coal and the complete mountaintop removals and water/air pollution.
She did send me another email, but it is not worth repeating...personal attacks, etc. ----- I asked her what she is REALLY doing other than whining to accomplish her goals. She will not answer that...because obviously all she is doing is talking.
The funny thing is that in the normal course of action, I would be on the same side as her! But anytime someone is so unreasonable, it makes them full of chit IMHO. They don't get anything done that way.
Not to bring other matters into this, but it is similar to a lot of the debates about immigration, pollution, energy, etc......that being that you have to START with the situation as it exists NOW, and not apply the "perfect world" scenario as if you (or I) were the only one on the planet.
I watched a bit of "who killed the electric car" yesterday, and the guy who invented the most modern battery technology made a great summary at the end as he showed the camera crew around his new PV Solar factory. He said "If you want to be a true revolutionary today, don't pick up a gun...rather use science and technology to clean up the world".....or something like that! I couldn't agree more. I have always held that the guy who tweaks another 1% out of the internal combustion engine or who engineers the hybrid is the REAL person who changes the world. Not to advocate lack of personal responsibility....we need that too. But the charge must be led by science, technology, industry and proper policy.
My wife, a liver transplant, loves our wood stove. The heat it produces warms her far better than forced air heat for starters. She likes that I like going out and harvesting wood, splitting it, etc. It puts me in very good moods.
The local forestry people like me because I talk to them extensively about where to harvest because there is a terrible beetle infestation in the forests and they like people like me to clean what now has become havens for infestations, and also fire hazards. I am under no illusion that I have more than a fly speck of an impact on the overall, but what little influence I do have is well appreciated because I go the extra to have communication with people about all this.
Our neighbors love it too because I burn among other things, pinon, which creates a wonderful scent in the neighborhood. Neighbors also reflect on why there is no smoke coming from my chimney. Could be low emissions? My guess.
The downside is I use perhaps 1/2 a tank of petrol each time I harvest 2-3 cords of wood that last 1 1/2 to 2 months, and inject that into the atmosphere. Shame on me.
Does Burning Issues have a newsletter or some such? Maybe I can order it, to use to start my fires that so far everyone around here loves.
The local forestry people like me because I talk to them extensively about where to harvest because there is a terrible beetle infestation in the forests and they like people like me to clean what now has become havens for infestations, and also fire hazards. I am under no illusion that I have more than a fly speck of an impact on the overall, but what little influence I do have is well appreciated because I go the extra to have communication with people about all this.
Our neighbors love it too because I burn among other things, pinon, which creates a wonderful scent in the neighborhood. Neighbors also reflect on why there is no smoke coming from my chimney. Could be low emissions? My guess.
The downside is I use perhaps 1/2 a tank of petrol each time I harvest 2-3 cords of wood that last 1 1/2 to 2 months, and inject that into the atmosphere. Shame on me.
Does Burning Issues have a newsletter or some such? Maybe I can order it, to use to start my fires that so far everyone around here loves.
Craig, I couldn't agree with you more. Statistics can be very dangerous. A recent study indicated that nearly every person who died in the last year had consumed H2O sometime within the last 24 hours...all of them had taken in oxygen within ten minutes of passing away. Hmm, does that mean that water and oxygen might be fatal? Most autombile accidents occur within two miles of home, etc, etc. Burning Issues discuss real health issues but not real world situations applicable to the lives we all lead here in the US IMHO. I have never heard of worries about dioxin pollution due to wood burning. Yet wood combustion may indeed produce small quantities of dioxin, certainly a nasty chemical if there ever was one. But dioxin pollution has been a deadly issue of the chemical industry, not wood burning. The day we are born, we are doomed to die. Hell, everything around us can eventually git us if you want to look at it that way. The question always is, what is really important and why? What do we really need to be concerned with improving? The wood industry works at doing better all the time. Each of those people who make it better are some of the real heroes you refer to, each in their small way. But in the big picture wood burning, even the rampant wildfires!, ( if you read burning issues, people are gonna be dieing left and right from what they must have breathed in from those) isn't what's the most important. What Sophia doesn't realize is that you really are on her side. Hearth.com has done more to clean up the wood burning population than any other commercial operation I know of. Time to move on to more worthwhile things.
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