Building a chase questions?

[webby3650]

I've seen many new homes where the foundation was so out of square there wasn't enough of the brick shelf left. The mason contractor would bolt a 4"x4"x3/8" angle iron the length of the wall and support two stories of real brick. 3 brackets welded in triangles, made from 4x4x3/8 angle and bolted with 5/8" rod drilled all the way through the foundation wall with a 4x4 plate on the inside of the basement will hold up a more then 2400 lbs.

What a hack job!!
I'm sure this happens occasionally and if the person that was having the house built knew about this, it would not fly. Very uncraftsman like!
The truth is, it might hold up just long enough for the Mason and the builder to be long gone, but no where near as long as it should have. A reputible builder wouldn't let it side by, that's for sure!

 

[pyroholic]

Hack job... Maybe, buy it does happen. It all comes down to the foundation guy. When framing the house you have to build to the blueprint and make it square. If you follow the foundation your trusses don't fit right (affects heel height which affects overhang height [or length] which is bad). If its not square you lose rows of tile and hardwood. Both glaring signs of inexperience or they just don't care.

All in all the steel lentil can the lesser of two evils and does pass inspection. That said, I wouldn't use steel lentil on my house to hold up more brick than necessary, such as over windows and doors.

 

[infinitymike]

What a hack job!!
I'm sure this happens occasionally and if the person that was having the house built knew about this, it would not fly. Very uncraftsman like!
The truth is, it might hold up just long enough for the Mason and the builder to be long gone, but no where near as long as it should have. A reputible builder wouldn't let it side by, that's for sure!

Well they have lasted far longer then that. Some go back as far as 12 years and still not one crack.
I've seen this about 4 times, The first time I saw this happen the builder called in a structural engineer and that was his suggestion. Rather then dig out the foundation and run 4" block up from the footing this was just as strong and less expensive.
But I guess if he wanted to be a jerk he could have forced the foundation contractor to eat it. I think the builder was pretty far to all parties, and still has a good reputation between his clients and his sub's. In fact I still frame for him and see alot of the houses I have done for him over the years, they look as good as they day the people moved in.

 

[webby3650]

Well, like I said, it won't last as long as it should. 12 years isn't any kind of a track record. 99% of home owners or customers would ever purchase a home if they knew that the bricks were perched on a bracket.

 

[infinitymike]

Well, like I said, it won't last as long as it should. 12 years isn't any kind of a track record. 99% of home owners or customers would ever purchase a home if they knew that the bricks were perched on a bracket.

I guess you might want to read this.

http://www.jlconline.com/framing/supporting-brick-veneer-on-wood-framing.aspx

If its good enough to support full size bricks on a steel angle bolted into wood framing then I'm sure its good enough to support lightweight cultured stone on a steel angle bolted into a concrete foundation.

 

[infinitymike]

Just in case you want to do a little more reading.

(broken link removed to http://www.gobrick.com/portals/25/docs/technical%20notes/tn28.pdf)

 

[infinitymike]

not very convincing..........................

convinced?

 

[infinitymike]

If he builds like I suggested he'll only be contacting me to thank me

I'll quote myself, in case you guys forgot

 

[ScotO]

I'll throw my hat into the ring here, as I just finished up my hearth and chase. And it's massive....and it's REAL stone veneer (very very heavy).....over 20' high, too.

Lots of good info in this post. But, keep in mind, you local codes. That's whats going to make a big difference. From an inspection standpoint, and even an insurance standpoint. But most of all, you want that thing to last, to look nice, to be safe for you and your family to be around......do it right the first time.

I dug a footer off of the foundation (almost 10" below frost line, just to be safe), built a rebar skeleton that is tied into the original stone/poured concrete foundation (which is sound and in excellent shape). Then I [poured it solid with concrete. Being I was using natural stone veneer, I wanted it MEGA strong.... At grade, I built up a block foundation for the chase, matching it up to the header board on the original house. I built a joist floor in the chase, then built 2x6" walls, 16" on centers, to the shape of the chase....

The walls connected to the house (both side walls of the chase) were bolted to the house with internal supports that are tied into the interior walls (actually they are laminated 2x6" beams). Yeah, I know.....Overkill......I didn't get my name fer nothing!!

I'll go up on my PC and load up some pics of my chase on this thread (don't have my laptop networked to the PC).......

 

[infinitymike]

Scotty, I'm with ya all the way. And agree the ultimate way is to pour a concrete foundation and go from there.
But there are other alternatives that may not be as astecially pleasing but will be structrual sound and cost affective.

I always say anyone can design a bridge that can stand, but it takes a smart engineer to design one that you can afford to build.

 

[ScotO]

Here's some pics of our build. First couple are of the foundation. Luckily my one buddy has a little Kubota, and that did a nice job not tearing our yard up....you can also see the skeleton of rebar I built. And just for a little more overkill, I drilled and tied it into the old foundation, and WELDED it all together.....it's friggin strong....




I poured the entire footer with concrete. It was faster and easier to do that instead of block. I then built block up to match the existing foundation....Matched the floor joists/flooring of the new chase foundation up with the existing flooring on my house. The flooring is comprised of a pressure treated header and 2x8" joists, 16" on center...



Then, we stick built the chase out of 2x6's....
We had to do some engineering to get the proper taper for the top of the chase. We wanted a colonial-look to the chase, kind of a "cabin in the woods" fireplace....



more pics on the next post...

 

[ScotO]

Here's the chase before being wrapped with tar paper and after. MAKE SURE YOU USE THE 30LB PAPER, NOT THE 15LB PAPER.....DON'T SHORTCUT THIS STEP!! I overlapped my tar paper by half a sheet, installing it from the bottom (it's overlapped like shingles) so in effect it's almost like two full layers of 30lb tar paper.



After tar paper, install your lath. Again, I overkilled it. I used #14 x 2" screws with a fender washer on them, so as to not let the lath pull around the screw.....after that, a scratchcoat of mortar, and used a scarifying tool (looks like a little rake) to texture the mortar....



Finally, when the weather, time, and money permitted, I did the natural stone veneer.....picture of the stones laid out in my driveway, where I could wash them off good and pick-n-choose from them. When doing stone, try to work from the top-down. Keeps all that sloppy mortar from hoggin up your hard work below.....

I went back in and grouted the joints after the stone set up for a day or so......



Finally, after over a year of off-and-on work, we had the chase ready...



I'm not saying you got to do yours the exact same way we did ours, just showing you how I did mine. It's holding up like it was built yesterday, too. Don't rush yourself or short change your project. If you need to take time out to save some money or whatever to do it right, then do it that way. Make a lasting project that is safe and enjoyable for many years to come.....

 

[ScotO]

Scotty, I'm with ya all the way. And agree the ultimate way is to pour a concrete foundation and go from there.
But there are other alternatives that may not be as astecially pleasing but will be structrual sound and cost affective.

I always say anyone can design a bridge that can stand, but it takes a smart engineer to design one that you can afford to build.

I'm not bustin your chops, Mike. I agree, there are many ways to build this chase. But if it's gonna be really big, and really heavy, I'd be recommending a footered foundation. Just my opinion.....again, not saying it can't be done differently...

 

[webby3650]

I guess you might want to read this.

http://www.jlconline.com/framing/supporting-brick-veneer-on-wood-framing.aspx

If its good enough to support full size bricks on a steel angle bolted into wood framing then I'm sure its good enough to support lightweight cultured stone on a steel angle bolted into a concrete foundation.

I never said the angle iron idea wouldn't hold up the chase with the stone veneer. It likely will, but footings would be better, for sure. But who in the world would want all the full brick on their house held up with iron bolted through 4x4's, or whatever you were suggesting earlier.

Great job Scotty! What a great example of a properly built chase.

 

[infinitymike]

I never said the angle iron idea wouldn't hold up the chase with the stone veneer. It likely will, but footings would be better, for sure. But who in the world would want all the full brick on their house held up with iron bolted through 4x4's, or whatever you were suggesting earlier.
.

I believe this is what you said and it sure sounds like you don't think it would hold up.

What a hack job!! I'm sure this happens occasionally and if the person that was having the house built knew about this, it would not fly. Very uncraftsman like! The truth is, it might hold up just long enough for the Mason and the builder to be long gone, but no where near as long as it should have. A reputible builder wouldn't let it side by, that's for sure!

And I'm not the one making up these suggestions, I'm just relaying the common practices in the building industry that are acceptable by the codes and building product manufactures themselves, hence the links to the professional sites.

 

[infinitymike]

I'm not trying to make this a pissing contest so lets all agree that a concrete foundation is the best way to go, but there are definitely other options that can be considered.

 

[ScotO]

I hope I didn't pizz anyone off. Wasn't my intentions. Just wanted to show the footered foundation idea, being the OP said he was building a stone-clad chase. I agree Mike, there are alternative methods.

Lets all pull in for a 'group hug'........lots of different ways to skin a cat.....

 

[infinitymike]

BTW, Beautiful work Scotty. But how in the world do you get anything done when you have almost 6 times the amount of posts I have and you joined a month after me.

 

[ScotO]

BTW, Beautiful work Scotty. But how in the world do you get anything done when you have almost 6 times the amount of posts I have and you joined a month after me.

Thanks for the compliments, brother....
Honestly, I can't answer that question!!
Um.....I can type really REALLY fast, and only get a couple hours of sleep a night?

 

[infinitymike]

Thanks for the compliments, brother....
Honestly, I can't answer that question!!
Um.....I can type really REALLY fast, and only get a couple hours of sleep a night?

You kill me or should I say overkill me!

And I totally agree with the last line of your sig.

 

[pyroholic]

Scotty, that is a massive chase. Looks great! I'd be willing to bet that thing will outlast us, our children, and their children's children.

Pretty sure you could park an Abrams Tank up there

 

[Michael Golden]

Thanks for the feedback! And Scotty that is pretty awesome!

 

[ScotO]

Scotty, that is a massive chase. Looks great! I'd be willing to bet that thing will outlast us, our children, and their children's children.

Pretty sure you could park an Abrams Tank up there

thanks, Pyro! My Great-Great-Grandfather and Great-Grandfathers built the house around 1918, I wanted to add to that hoping my kids or grandkids can someday inherit the house and continue to enjoy it. Being its veneered with natural stone, I'm betting it weighs up in the 10,000lb+ range. I wanted to be sure it lasted and lasted well.....

 

[ScotO]

One thing I wanted to mention is that with man-made stone veneer, if it is properly installed, the "brick ledge" isn't as important ask it is with brick facing. When installing a stone veneer, its more "attached" to the substrate, that's where the strength is. Properly prepared substrate (metal lath attached to the framing with proper fasteners every 6-8" on studs and wallboard), along with a proper scratchcoat, and the grout you put between the stone, provides the real strength of the stone wall. Natural stone can be a bit trickier, as it is heavier. Bit you will STILL have a great deal of weight that will need to be supported by a proper foundation (be it a footered foundation or another system). Just remember, buildings, relationships, businesses, etc.......all of the good ones are built on solid foundations!

 

[Michael Golden]

One thing I wanted to mention is that with man-made stone veneer, if it is properly installed, the "brick ledge" isn't as important ask it is with brick facing. When installing a stone veneer, its more "attached" to the substrate, that's where the strength is. Properly prepared substrate (metal lath attached to the framing with proper fasteners every 6-8" on studs and wallboard), along with a proper scratchcoat, and the grout you put between the stone, provides the real strength of the stone wall. Natural stone can be a bit trickier, as it is heavier. Bit you will STILL have a great deal of weight that will need to be supported by a proper foundation (be it a footered foundation or another system). Just remember, buildings, relationships, businesses, etc.......all of the good ones are built on solid foundations!

Boy isn't that last sentence the truth!