I have a BK ashford, heating just under 2000 SF; also don’t have temps like you, but to give an idea we’ve been getting negative single digits last few nights, house is 68-72 in morning (12-13 hr burns) with pine. I see Minnesota in the signature, so with good hardwood you’ll be fine likely with either stove. Although this is my first stove, I’m biased to BK. 12 hr reloads, long burn times depending on species, even heat the list goes on.
Blaze King or a Lopi
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Why 75%? That high seems to benefit only Blaze King and Wood Stock. (But I didn’t do a thorough search.). And only the free-standings stoves qualified, no inserts or fireplaces that I could find. (Again, I didn’t do an exhaustive search.)
Why any credit at all? Both Wood Stock and you/Blaze King say you already have high demand.
I am not trying to be difficult. I keep looking at our old smoke dragon, trying to justify replacing it. One concern I have is resale, meaning I almost have to have an insert or fireplace. This, an unnecessary credit, does me no good and does make me a little resentful that two manufacturers that apparently don’t need help are getting incentives.
Is this woodburning only? If I go on the website as BKVP suggested their list starts at 245 units- 100 remain after I filter to 75% efficiency (assuming their filter is HHV?). I may be doing that wrong though.
Either way, its not surprising to me at all that the tax credit is incentivizing the the most efficient units - yes this is likely to favor certain designs of manufacturers but that's not the government's concern. It incentivizes the industry to focus on this metric in their engineering/design. Finally, even if this credit doesn't favor whatever units you happen to be looking at as replacements, it doesn't take anything away from your choices - your preferences don't get worse, they just don't get better.
Nealm66
Minister of Fire
They told me the lopi cape cod qualified for a tax credit when I was looking at them. Think it was like $300. Never said anything about it when I bought the blaze king. This was in October/November.
I could be wrong but I believe that's the current credit, not the one proposed to take effect 1/1
You can still claim that tax credit on your 2020 return if the stove is installed in 2020. Here is an explanation of the changes:
Nealm66
Minister of Fire
BKVP
Minister of Fire
BKVP
Minister of Fire
And just to give you some real data/an idea: I loaded stove last night at 8 PM using pine juniper and mahogany, temps last night were 0F. I got up this morning between 7-8 AM, temp outside was 0F, house was 71 F didn’t touch the stove. Temps today hit 30 F for the high house stayed 71-72 F, I’ll reload at 2 PM 18 hours later. Just a couple splits until tonight’s load. Currently the STT is 250 and the cat is still active. Happy stove hunting!
Nealm66
Minister of Fire
I wish someone would buy one of the new lopi cape cods and give they’re results. I had basically purchased one but the subcontractors that came out to install it said it couldn’t be done. I suspect now ,having the princess , it would have been a bit too much for my house but it would be nice to hear from someone with actual experience. I’ve walked into that store when they got the smaller version hybrid running and it’s pumping out some serious heat. But it would be hard to steer someone that direction after being around a blaze king
AVS, thanks for pointing out the link, I will check it out. maybe I can find something that works for me and would qualify for any 2021 - 2023 credit. I’m not in any hurry yet. The frustrating part of the 75% is both the RSF Opal and PE FP line are just under 75%. I would prefer a BK but my current Smoke dragon is a zero clearance and I dpn’t think an insert would look good in it even if I could make it work.
Regarding how the 75% was determined, I am skeptical of altruistic motives because of my experience as a tax CPA. Many years ago, I worked on a client,s tax credits. To make a long story short I had a “ back seat” view of tax law changes. in their case, a last minute provision, think added just a few hours before it was voted on, saved them tens of millions of dollars. The provision didn’t name my client but the provision was so tightly worded that it benefitted only them. Over the years, I have seen several other tightly worded provisions and wondered who got those in. the 75% could be legit or it could have been precuddly picked for other reasons. I don’t know.
Anyway, I am going to check that link out. Maybe there is something on it that will work for me.
Fair enough
I certainly wont claim any intimate knowledge of how the details were IDed. I think you'll find the list is a lot more mixed than you think though, and the 75% seems like the type of obvious threshold than someone may jump to.
More importantly, I hope you find something on the list that'll work for you
BKVP
Minister of Fire
There are 17 different manufacturers with 53 units that CURRENTLY would qualify. EPA continually receives certification requests. I assure you the list will grow.Fair enough
I certainly wont claim any intimate knowledge of how the details were IDed. I think you'll find the list is a lot more mixed than you think though, and the 75% seems like the type of obvious threshold than someone may jump to.
More importantly, I hope you find something on the list that'll work for you
As to HHV versus LHV. In a previous tax credit for Biomass heaters, units could be "self certified" using 3 different formulas to get the efficiency of a unit. So long as they tested above 75% LHV (low heat value) they qualified.
Amazingly 90% plus of all heaters qualified. Regulators and other representatives in government had serious concerns, to say the least.
LHV (lower heating value) is the efficiency of the appliance after the moisture has been dealt with. Basically, 0 moisture content.
HHV (higher heating value) is the efficiency without offset to first get to a dry basis.
Since all our fuels have varying levels of moisture content, HHV was used by EPA and favored by other officials. So it is the efficiency from your emissions test that must reported and marketed...HHV.
Back when the original tax credit was introduced, there was about a 6%-8% difference for the same stove between HHV and LHV, LHV always being the larger number.
One last thought, one of the 3 formulas originally permitted, yielded an efficiency of 101% on one of our units....and a 3rd party lab did our calculation
EDIT...This is wood stoves and inserts only! Pellet stoves and other units may qualify.
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BKVP
Minister of Fire
They all qualify. Our website has certificates. Incidentally, you claim the tax credit on your Federal income taxes and keep a copy of certificate with your paperwork. Keep in mind if you took the credit for another purpose (listed in 25C), you have a lifetime limit.
The proposed new credit has no lifetime limitations.
Chris,
Thank you for the insight. I find such personal knowledge of the process fascinating from being closely involved once with a narrow segment of legislation.
To the OP, I have no experience on your specific question of BK versus Lopi but, if I may, I will share a little related experience. First, if I recall correctly you are looking at a basement installation in your newly purchased ranch style house. (Congrats on the purchase, House purchases are fun and exciting. I hope this one gives you many years of enjoyment.)
I have been surprised by how much heat concrete walls and floors soak up. Insulating walls with fiberglass under sheetrock muted the effect somewhat. Noticeably more effective, was when I added a half inch of foam board next to the concrete and then put the fiberglass over that. Just something to consider if you do put a wood stove in the basement. HTH. Good luck with your decision and enjoy your new house:
Nice work! Lots of labor to get there in a renovation with the DH window pockets, etc.
No real surprise here. It's a huge area, and the concrete is in direct connection with the ground.
So for the walls I'd recommend 4x6 rafters on-edge with drywall on top, giving you 6" of space to fill with insulation. That should do the trick, if you can afford to lose the space.
For the floor, it gets a bit more complicated, but a 1" thick insulation board with hardwood flooring on top is probably the way to go.
I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a blueprint or upload a simple sketch. The house is rectangular in shape. Just looking at brands and what the dealer had. I've done some more reading and like the Kuma's now.
The other issue I've thought about is having my main floor get nice and toasty, the thermostat won't kick the furnace on and im wondering how cold my basement will get when the propane isn't running. I'm doing some research and it sounds like the fan mode on the central air wouldn't do enough to circulate the heat.
Another note, I visited my parents and they have last years model Pacific Energy wood stove. Very nice, really cranks out the heat. It was about 90 in their main living area. They have high peaked ceilings and two of their rooms are really closed off at the other end of the house. House is one level with a crawl space.. Wood heat is all they use. Propane rarely kicks on. Temps that day were below zero for the high.
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That'd be a bit toasty for my taste. I have no trouble keeping the living room stable at somewhere between 73 and 75 with the BK. Don't even have to fiddle with the thermostat. Set and forget.
Of course, as the outside temperature changes, so does heat demand and that does require a bit of adjustment once and again.
Thank you for the input! Install would actually be on the main floor. Basement is unfinished and most of our time would be spent upstairs. I also want it on our main floor for the aesthetics. I'm thinking I'll need to run a fan from the basement stairs up into the living room to get some heat distribution. We also have a ceiling fan in the living room. Almost just above the stairs leading down to the basement. My concern now is how cold the basement might get without the furnace kicking on.
Getting warm air downstairs without a forced air system is almost impossible. Your ceiling fan will help distribute the heat throughout the same floor, but not into the basement. Depending on its insulation, it could get rather chilly down there. Almost certainly too low for comfort.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
"I know a guy" that used the 16" wall spacing in interior walls as duct work. Since the interior walls are seldom insulated, he placed a bower motor near the floor and placed a register near the ceiling. The hot air was pulled down the space between two 16" on center studs and then he had a 3" diameter piece of pipe running down into the basement. It is a very clean install.
