Blaze King install puzzle

[Slate Dale]

About one third of the basement wall is insulated, and there is closet storage along about a quarter of the uninsulated wall. I remember your suggestion of a Regency 5200. I had looked it up then.

The Regency 5200 doesn't seem to be very different in size, output, etc. than the BK 40, and both have cats. Do you think it performs better in some way?

I'm thinking: If I would put a 6 inch hybrid insulated flexible liner inside the vermiculite-insulated 8 inch rigid liner, I would have an EXTREMELY well-insulated system, and I would need a stove that has a 6 inch exhaust. I'm reading on some of these threads that the BK Princess is less fussy about venting than the King 40, and it has a 6 inch exhaust. Of course it would require a higher temperature setting and shorter burn times and more frequent reloading to get the amount of heat that this King 40 normally produces, but I might eliminate the problem of condensation.

I know there are much less expensive large stoves at Tractor Supply, that are advertised to produce a lot of heat (rated for heating 3,200 square feet, producing over 180,000 BTU) but they don't hold very much wood (less than 50 lbs. ) and don't have good automatic thermostatic draft control, and would need to be watched and reloaded constantly. I keep coming back to Blaze King as the best overall.

 

[stoveliker]

The point with any stove is that you need to produce enough heat to be efficient in combustion(I.e. less pollution of flue and outdoors). That minimum can be lower for some cat stoves.
AND you need to keep the flue warm enough.

Given that even your inside pipe is too cold (below boiling of water), you need to dial up your stove. Another stove would also need that.

I don't know if the uninsulated T outside (if I recall correctly) will then be hot enough then.

If burning hotter is too much heat for your basement (especially when using a BK that can go rather low), then a wood stove may not be the most suitable appliance to keep your basement at temperature. I don't understand though; an uninsured basement rarely gets too hot. So just dial it up once you have dry wood.

Focus less on the burn time, focus on what the stove needs. Dry wood (I know, "later"), hot enough flue. Otherwise you may end up with hazards.

You've been hesitant about the cat gauge, but all here have said to not consider that beyond the inactive-active switchover.

I'm not sure insulating single wall stove pipe with rockwool is a good idea (the stove pipe would get a lot hotter, maybe too hot).

 

[Slate Dale]

"Given that even your inside pipe is too cold (below boiling of water) you need to dial up your stove":

The SURFACE of the pipe is around 200 to 250 on a regular burn (assuming that the new magnetic thermometer is accurate) and it has only reached 400 once on a very fast, hot burn, isn't the temperature of the exhaust gas moving through the pipe somewhat higher? I read somewhere once the exhaust could be twice as high as the surface of the pipe. I'm guessing it could be a little higher. But if the surface of the pipe is below a certain temperature there could be condensation?

"I don't know if the uninsulated T outside (if I recall correctly) will then be hot enough then":

There is no T. The inside single-wall black stove pipe system connects to the bottom of a rigid stainless steel liner that protrudes through the concrete foundation wall. The rigid stainless liner is insulated with about two inches of vermiculite cement, except for the bottom two feet that go through the house and hearth foundation and protrude into the basement, and about three feet of single-wall rigid stainless extension that I added later, above the chimney top. The vermiculite-insulated rigid stainless liner is inside a masonry chimney of course.

"If burning hotter is too much heat for your basement (...) then a wood stove may not be the most suitable appliance":

I don't think it's ever too hot for the basement. The King 40 going full blast has not been too hot. There is a head for the "hyper" (heats below zero) heat pump that heats the basement fairly well and can help the wood stove when the wood stove is on a slow burn, but I would like to not use it and save the heat pump for heating in spring and fall, and cooling in summer. But I'm very short of tested-dry wood now, so I'm only using the wood stove on very cold nights and the heat pump is stil in use.

"I'm not sure insulating single wall stove pipe with rockwool is a good idea (the stove pipe would get a lot hotter, maybe too hot)":

I'm not insulating any pipe with rockwool. I used the rockwool to stop air and heat from rising up the chimney above the block-off plate above the Princess insert (that's the other new BK stove, the one upstairs) when I re-installed it. The professional installer who originally put in the stove stuffed Fiberglass in the smokeshelf area and there was no block-off plate. Two other mistakes were made, but they're fixed now (explained in my post yesterday) but I might still need to change what was done with the extension cord for the fan. No one has answered that question yet.

I'm not using the Princess insert now because of the shortage of really dry wood, and I want to understand the King perfectly so there is no more creosote before concentrating on the insert.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Slate Dale]

I posted some photos of the indoor (basement) part of the venting system, earlier on this thread. There is less than a foot of stove pipe (actually two adjustable angles) that is horizontal, which is where the leakage occurs.

 

[Highbeam]

The Regency 5200 doesn't seem to be very different in size, output, etc. than the BK 40, and both have cats. Do you think it performs better in some way?

The 5200 is a hybrid stove that feeds secondary air and has no thermostat. Look at the EPA list to see the difference in output compared to the BK40. Both are welded steel stoves with 8" flue and a cat. I would prefer the king for several reasons but the 5200 is quite good for what it is.

 

[stoveliker]

"Given that even your inside pipe is too cold (below boiling of water) you need to dial up your stove":

The SURFACE of the pipe is around 200 to 250 on a regular burn (assuming that the new magnetic thermometer is accurate) and it has only reached 400 once on a very fast, hot burn, isn't the temperature of the exhaust gas moving through the pipe somewhat higher? I read somewhere once the exhaust could be twice as high as the surface of the pipe. I'm guessing it could be a little higher. But if the surface of the pipe is below a certain temperature there could be condensation?

"I don't know if the uninsulated T outside (if I recall correctly) will then be hot enough then":

There is no T. The inside single-wall black stove pipe system connects to the bottom of a rigid stainless steel liner that protrudes through the concrete foundation wall. The rigid stainless liner is insulated with about two inches of vermiculite cement, except for the bottom two feet that go through the house and hearth foundation and protrude into the basement, and about three feet of single-wall rigid stainless extension that I added later, above the chimney top. The vermiculite-insulated rigid stainless liner is inside a masonry chimney of course.

"If burning hotter is too much heat for your basement (...) then a wood stove may not be the most suitable appliance":

I don't think it's ever too hot for the basement. The King 40 going full blast has not been too hot. There is a head for the "hyper" (heats below zero) heat pump that heats the basement fairly well and can help the wood stove when the wood stove is on a slow burn, but I would like to not use it and save the heat pump for heating in spring and fall, and cooling in summer. But I'm very short of tested-dry wood now, so I'm only using the wood stove on very cold nights and the heat pump is stil in use.

"I'm not sure insulating single wall stove pipe with rockwool is a good idea (the stove pipe would get a lot hotter, maybe too hot)":

I'm not insulating any pipe with rockwool. I used the rockwool to stop air and heat from rising up the chimney above the block-off plate above the Princess insert (that's the other new BK stove, the one upstairs) when I re-installed it. The professional installer who originally put in the stove stuffed Fiberglass in the smokeshelf area and there was no block-off plate. Two other mistakes were made, but they're fixed now (explained in my post yesterday) but I might still need to change what was done with the extension cord for the fan. No one has answered that question yet.

I'm not using the Princess insert now because of the shortage of really dry wood, and I want to understand the King perfectly so there is no more creosote before concentrating on the insert.

Thanks for your help.

If your pipe is that temperature, there should not (cannot) be water coming out. Note that if you fill your King with 60 lbs of wood, you'll be making 30+ lbs of water, even if the wood was at 0%.

I had a single wall pipe with a magnetic thermometer. If that thermometer was above boiling, then dropping a drop of water on the pipe it would immediately sizzle and boil away. You have liquid in your pipe. Yes, that might be running down from too cold outside (I understood earlier that you had a T or elbow outside that was not covered in your insulation - but maybe that's your thru-the-wall section), but if water reaches a place where it's 250 F, it should simply boil away. Unless someone put a hose in the top of your chimney (large quantity).

I remembered you voicing a thought about insulating the single wall pipe.

Regardless, not burning until you have dry wood is a good approach; and once you have dry wood, we could look at what issues remain.

 

[Slate Dale]

Re: "You have liquid in your pipe. Yes, that might be running down from too cold outside (I understood earlier that you had a T or elbow outside that was not covered in your insulation - but maybe that's your thru-the-wall section)":

Yes, it's the approximately two foot through-the-wall section that is cut through solid concrete, the basement wall (house foundation) and part of the chimney foundation. The surface of the basement wall near the pipe gets quite hot after a few days burning, but further inside it might be different. I don't know how to measure the temperature of the rigid stainless pipe metal in there. Let's say it's 100 degrees most of the time, but not in the beginning of a burn. Of course the vertical chimney from there on up isn't warm in the beginning either. The condensation dripping usually stops in an hour.

I don't think the un-insulated three foot extension of rigid stainless that stands above the chimney top is the problem. When I climbed up to look in there a few days ago I didn't find any stage three (condensing) creosote up there, just soot.

Re: "once you have dry wood, we could look at what issues remain":

I have been using tested dry wood, not like I was in the beginning. But there is still some condensation, revealed by dripping from the seams of those sections of adjustable angle. I collect (in a metal bowl) about a quarter to third cup per load of dry wood now, as opposed to a half cup or more when using wood in the 20 to 35% moisture range. I think there should not be any liquid in any part of the venting. I could create an OVER-KILL DOUBLE-insulated system by running insulated hybrid flexible liner through this vermiculite insulated 8 inch system and attach to a Princess stove with 6 inch exhaust. I've read that the Princess is "less fussy" than the King. Then I could start over with the King in another building that needs heat, where it can be vented straight up with TRIPLE wall double-insulated pipe.

Maybe vermiculite cement cures and gets drier and more insulating over time and the full R value hasn't been reached yet. That's another idea that occurs to me. But it was done months ago, and I used the best recipe and directions.

 

[bholler]

Re: "You have liquid in your pipe. Yes, that might be running down from too cold outside (I understood earlier that you had a T or elbow outside that was not covered in your insulation - but maybe that's your thru-the-wall section)":

Yes, it's the approximately two foot through-the-wall section that is cut through solid concrete, the basement wall (house foundation) and part of the chimney foundation. The surface of the basement wall near the pipe gets quite hot after a few days burning, but further inside it might be different. I don't know how to measure the temperature of the rigid stainless pipe metal in there. Let's say it's 100 degrees most of the time, but not in the beginning of a burn. Of course the vertical chimney from there on up isn't warm in the beginning either. The condensation dripping usually stops in an hour.

I don't think the un-insulated three foot extension of rigid stainless that stands above the chimney top is the problem. When I climbed up to look in there a few days ago I didn't find any stage three (condensing) creosote up there, just soot.

Re: "once you have dry wood, we could look at what issues remain":

I have been using tested dry wood, not like I was in the beginning. But there is still some condensation, revealed by dripping from the seams of those sections of adjustable angle. I collect (in a metal bowl) about a quarter to third cup per load of dry wood now, as opposed to a half cup or more when using wood in the 20 to 35% moisture range. I think there should not be any liquid in any part of the venting. I could create an OVER-KILL DOUBLE-insulated system by running insulated hybrid flexible liner through this vermiculite insulated 8 inch system and attach to a Princess stove with 6 inch exhaust. I've read that the Princess is "less fussy" than the King. Then I could start over with the King in another building that needs heat, where it can be vented straight up with TRIPLE wall double-insulated pipe.

Maybe vermiculite cement cures and gets drier and more insulating over time and the full R value hasn't been reached yet. That's another idea that occurs to me. But it was done months ago, and I used the best recipe and directions.

We have no idea what the insulation value of your mix is. I could tell you what it is if you had used a listed product. But yours is anyone's guess

 

[Slate Dale]

We have no idea what the insulation value of your mix is. I could tell you what it is if you had used a listed product. But yours is anyone's guess

The recipe charts show this mixture with a bare minimum amount of Portland cement, maximum of vermiculite and no sand is the most insulating, next to just plain dry vermiculite. A local masonry contractor I talked to said it is the correct mixture/ratio that they use. The pre-mixed product that you're referring to is probably just as good, but it is extremely expensive compared to buying giant 6 cu. foot bales of pure vermiculite (medium grade) and 90 lbs. Portland which I already had on hand. The directions were to mix by hand instead of a mixer to preserve the air-filled flakey structure of the vermiculite, and to use a minimal amount of moisture to get a consistency that is no wetter than thick oatmeal. Mine was actually a lot drier than thick oatmeal. I would have just poured in dry vermiculite that we know the R value of but a little Portland makes it "solid" or at least keeps it from moving around. I read that adding ANY sand to the mixture eliminates the insulation value.

Two inches of this vermi-cement is supposed to be equal to the thin layer of white ceramic fiber insulation in the flexible hybrid liner.

I saved some of the vermi-cement to look at later to see how it develops. It became almost as lightweight as styrofoam, and very crummy, or crumbly, very easy to break with my hands. It dried quickly in the open air, but inside the chimney I don't know how long it takes for any excess moisture (that is not used up in the cement-curing chemical reaction) to dissipate. I'm thinking the insulation value might increase over time as any excess moisture dissipates.

 

[Slate Dale]

I actually posted the update two days ago because I had an "urgent" question. Maybe the question was overlooked with all the other content I posted, so here is the question again:

Background: The original installer had connected the BK Princess insert's fan motor cord to a metal outlet box with armored, romex cable running down through the hole to the ash pit under the hearth (and out of the ash pit space through a hole drilled in the concrete foundation wall (you can see it in some of the photos I posted earlier in this thread) to join the basement wiring system, where I connected it later. The insert's unshielded plastic extension cord is wound up behind the insert, and the metal outlet box which also has some plastic parts is also there, in the back corner of the hearth just inches from the back of the hot stove. It gets hot there, even at floor level, bound to reach boiling point or higher sometimes.

I'd like to know: IS IT COMPLETELY SAFE? Is this a common practice? Has anyone ever had a problem with it?

 

[bholler]

I actually posted the update two days ago because I had an "urgent" question. Maybe the question was overlooked with all the other content I posted, so here is the question again:

Background: The original installer had connected the BK Princess insert's fan motor cord to a metal outlet box with armored, romex cable running down through the hole to the ash pit under the hearth (and out of the ash pit space through a hole drilled in the concrete foundation wall (you can see it in some of the photos I posted earlier in this thread) to join the basement wiring system, where I connected it later. The insert's unshielded plastic extension cord is wound up behind the insert, and the metal outlet box which also has some plastic parts is also there, in the back corner of the hearth just inches from the back of the hot stove. It gets hot there, even at floor level, bound to reach boiling point or higher sometimes.

I'd like to know: IS IT COMPLETELY SAFE? Is this a common practice? Has anyone ever had a problem with it?

It isn't allowed by code. The insert blower needs to be plugged into an outlet accessable in the room that the stove is in. Unless the manufacturer allows for something different

 

[Slate Dale]

It isn't allowed by code. The insert blower needs to be plugged into an outlet accessable in the room that the stove is in. Unless the manufacturer allows for something different

"needs to be plugged into an outlet accessable in the room that the stove is in":

Since I re-installed the stove using an appliance connector, now the stove can be pulled out (when the stove is cold) to get at the connection, and the connection really is "in the same room," just like the plug connections for the electric range, refrigerator and dishwasher are all in the kitchen, although they are only accessible by pulling out the appliances.

"Unless the manufacturer allows for something different":

The BK manual says only that there is a cord supplied with the stove, and that the cord must not be placed in front of the stove. The manual doesn't say where it is to be connected or whether or not it can placed in back of the stove and connected behind the stove.

When I called the company, the person answering the phone said they hear a lot about it, and that it seems to be done a lot, and that it may be safe, and then, of course, referred me to the dealer. But it is impossible to reach the dealer, so here I am with the question on Hearth.com.

I would at least like to know if it is a common practice, and whether anyone has had trouble with it. Thanks for your help.

 

[Slate Dale]

"needs to be plugged into an outlet accessable in the room that the stove is in":

Since I re-installed the stove using an appliance connector, now the stove can be pulled out (when the stove is cold) to get at the connection, and the connection really is "in the same room," just like the plug connections for the electric range, refrigerator and dishwasher are all in the kitchen, although they are only accessible by pulling out the appliances.

"Unless the manufacturer allows for something different":

The BK manual says only that there is a cord supplied with the stove, and that the cord must not be placed in front of the stove. The manual doesn't say where it is to be connected or whether or not it can placed in back of the stove and connected behind the stove.

When I called the company, the person answering the phone said they hear a lot about it, and that it seems to be done a lot, and that it may be safe, and then, of course, referred me to the dealer. But it is impossible to reach the dealer, so here I am with the question on Hearth.com.

I would at least like to know if it is a common practice, and whether anyone has had trouble with it. Thanks for your help.

Maybe the inside of the old fireplace is considered to be a different room, not part of the living room?

 

[Slate Dale]

Maybe the inside the old fireplace is considered to be a different room, not part of the living room?

Also, I was asking earlier what stoves some of you thought would be better than the BK King. So far the only one mentioned by name is the Regency 5200. I looked it up and it is very similar to the King and I couldn't see any advantage.

The criteria would be: (1) non-fussy about venting, or much less fussy than the King, therefore making very little or no creosote with dry wood, and (2) able to produce a lot of heat when needed like the BK King. So I'm willing to give up the slow burning feature that attracted me to BK.

This is an 8 inch vermiculite-insulated rigid system, but I could easily run a 6 inch insulated flexible liner down inside it creating a super-insulated 6 inch venting system.

 

[bholler]

"needs to be plugged into an outlet accessable in the room that the stove is in":

Since I re-installed the stove using an appliance connector, now the stove can be pulled out (when the stove is cold) to get at the connection, and the connection really is "in the same room," just like the plug connections for the electric range, refrigerator and dishwasher are all in the kitchen, although they are only accessible by pulling out the appliances.

"Unless the manufacturer allows for something different":

The BK manual says only that there is a cord supplied with the stove, and that the cord must not be placed in front of the stove. The manual doesn't say where it is to be connected or whether or not it can placed in back of the stove and connected behind the stove.

When I called the company, the person answering the phone said they hear a lot about it, and that it seems to be done a lot, and that it may be safe, and then, of course, referred me to the dealer. But it is impossible to reach the dealer, so here I am with the question on Hearth.com.

I would at least like to know if it is a common practice, and whether anyone has had trouble with it. Thanks for your help.

Code says it needs to be accessible in the same room. Needing to pull the surround and insert is not accessible

 

[Slate Dale]

Also, I was asking earlier what stoves some of you thought would be better than the BK King. So far the only one mentioned by name is the Regency 5200. I looked it up and it is very similar to the King and I couldn't see any advantage.

The criteria would be: (1) non-fussy about venting, or much less fussy than the King, therefore making very little or no creosote with dry wood, and (2) able to produce a lot of heat when needed like the BK King. So I'm willing to give up the slow burning feature that attracted me to BK.

This is an 8 inch vermiculite-insulated rigid system, but I could easily run a 6 inch insulated flexible liner down inside it creating a super-insulated 6 inch venting system.

I think, if I was a stove dealer, or any kind of salesman, I would educate my customers and potential customers on every detail and answer all their questions about the product, to make sure it is the best for them and it is what they really want, but I guess I don't understand the nature of business.

 

[Slate Dale]

Code says it needs to be accessible in the same room. Needing to pull the surround and insert is not accessible

So the way it was "professionally" installed is against code. In that case, it does need to be changed.

But the contact at the company (BK) said it seems to be a common practice.

Is it really a common practice? Where are inserts normally plugged in?

 

[bholler]

So the way it was "professionally" installed is against code. In that case, it does need to be changed.

But the contact at the company (BK) said it seems to be a common practice.

Is it really a common practice? Where are inserts normally plugged in?

Things are "professionally installed" in a way that doesn't comply with code all the time. That is sad but true.

Personally I don't really see much danger with it but I simply informed you of what the code says.

Common practice is to plug the insert into an outlet in the room

 

[bholler]

I think, if I was a stove dealer, or any kind of salesman, I would educate my customers and potential customers on every detail and answer all their questions about the product, to make sure it is the best for them and it is what they really want, but I guess I don't understand the nature of business.

Many dealers simply want to sell you a stove. Whether it's the right one for you isn't a big concern for many

 

[Slate Dale]

Things are "professionally installed" in a way that doesn't comply with code all the time. That is sad but true.

Personally I don't really see much danger with it but I simply informed you of what the code says.

Common practice is to plug the insert into an outlet in the room

There was a hefty extra fee for "doing the electric," but nothing was actually done but hanging a length of armored cable (with a metal outlet box at the stove end) down into the basement through the ash pit hole. Later on, I had to connect the loose end of the cable to our household electric system with the help and further expense of a licensed electrician.

To "do the electric" properly, then, to do it according to the Code, since there was no existing wall outlet to the left of the stove, the installer would have needed to take a little more time, to install an outlet box in the wall and run wire from there down into the basement.

I remember when the dealer came to visit in the beginning, he was excited to see the ash pit door in the bottom of the hearth because they "don't see these very often" and it will make it a cinch, an easy, quick install.

 

[bholler]

There was a hefty extra fee for "doing the electric," but nothing was actually done but hanging a length of armored cable (with a metal outlet box at the stove end) down into the basement through the ash pit hole. Later on, I had to connect the loose end of the cable to our household electric system with the help and further expense of a licensed electrician.

To "do the electric" properly, then, to do it according to the Code, since there was no existing wall outlet to the left of the stove, the installer would have needed to take a little more time, to install an outlet box in the wall and run wire from there down into the basement.

I remember when the dealer came to visit in the beginning, he was excited to see the ash pit door in the bottom of the hearth because they "don't see these very often" and it will make it a cinch, an easy, quick install.

That explains it they took the easy way to make extra money

 

[Slate Dale]

Many dealers simply want to sell you a stove. Whether it's the right one for you isn't a big concern for many

That's true for selling automobiles, houses, everything. I've never been a salesman so it is very hard to understand. Maybe it is a myth that years ago most salesmen really believed in their product, really cared about their customers, and they could be successful nonetheless.

A local chimney sweep I talked to before buying these stoves warned me that "slow burning never works, everybody tries it and it always makes an expensive mess." He sells stoves with re-burn tubes and short burn cycles, but could sell Blaze King. BK has a program to sell through chimney sweeps, and I was considering going that route. I think he would have done a good installation. But I found out recently it is not required to have these professionally installed for the warranty to be in effect, and at this point I can do the entire installation myself, having had to re-install almost everything, "learning on the job at my own expense."

 

[Slate Dale]

Dry wood is scarce until next year, so I continue burning and testing the Blaze King stoves only in very cold spells.

The wood I use is about 12 to 15%, tested with a good new tester pushed into the fiber grooves of fresh splits. The ash and poplar pieces are dry. Large pieces of oak, especially those with some bark are the opposite - testing in the mid twenties - so I avoid using those.

But even with very dry wood there is still some liquid dripping from the seams in that one foot horizontal section of the King 40 venting, whenever I begin burning again after several days without burning, and whenever I re-load and don't set the thermostat at the top or very high for most of a burn. The key to preventing condensation dripping and keeping the window glass clear seems to be: Keeping the thermostat set at the top or very close to the top until only red coals are left. However that solution requires too-frequent reloading, and the basement temperature reaches the 80s and even hotter near the stove.

The Princess insert seems to be less fussy and I can run it at an upper-mid thermostat setting without getting dirty window glass. The insert heats the upstairs very well in very cold weather.

I thought the big King 40 stove could be used for very long, slow burns and once-a-day re-loading, but that seems impossible without a perfect wood supply (kiln-dried wood below 10 percent) and a perfect venting system that is all straight up vertical, and triple-wall double-insulated all the way, so the cool exhaust of a slow burn never loses a single degree on the way out.

 

[Slate Dale]

Today I found one piece of oak at 26% moisture, the highest I've found recently. Most of the wood is testing below 20% now, measured with all four probes pushed into the inside surfaces of fresh splits. The low-humidity heated indoor air and continuous electric fan air movement certainly helps. Looking forward to a large, multi-year stockpile of very dry wood if I can build a solar kiln or other drying structure.

Does anyone have experience with solar firewood drying?

 

[stoveliker]

woodsplitter67 has one (or more) very informative thread on solar kilns, how to build, what to to expect for moisture content. Search and you'll find it.