Black walnut plantation....anyone got one?

[brian89gp]

In these parts the nuts bring more money the the tree's do. Can make decent money from hedge for fence posts though.

 

[BIGDADDY]

Well, I guess this would probably be classified as both a hobby and future investment, although it's true I'll probably never see any financial benefit from it. More likely it would be something for the kids to hopefully benefit from.

Fruit trees as far as I'm concerned are a PIA. they also have to be fenced for at least 5-10 years. They have to be sprayed several times a year and then the birds, deer and bear love to ravage the trees in the fall. I have about a dozen apple trees in my yard that provide me with lots of wonderful fruit, but they also take a lot of attention if you want to get good apples.

I actually think now I could get closer to $7000 for the wood on the 6 acres by cutting and skidding it myself, and that's after hauling charges too. So even a $5K initial investment without any cost-share money should still leave me a few grand to play with. I'm anxious to see what the guy from the soil conservation district will say on Tuesday.

If you want to sell some of your walnut trees it shouldn't be that hard to find buyers for them. You might try the walnut council, I think they have some links to help people find buyers for their trees and also lots of other info about walnut trees and growing.

Pat

I'd be interested in some links for walnut buyers. Post em

 

[Pat53]

I'd be interested in some links for walnut buyers. Post em

The first thing I would do is see if a registered forester can look at the trees. he should be able to tell you if they are good or not. Might be a small fee involved, but he should be able to give you a ballpark figure as far as volume and quality is concerned.

After that you can contact the walnut council and see if they have a state chapter that would probably have contacts, or just simply put an add in your local paper and take sealed bids from loggers who might be interested. Always get a contract before letting anyone start cutting. If they're good trees someone will be interested in them.

 

[BIGDADDY]

There is no walnut council in Pennsylvania.

 

[McKraut]

Is that right? 1000 different 'species" of trees?

I guess I should have said "a 1000 trees of various species".

Tubes are a pain in the ...but I didn't see wire as a much better alternative. The post holding up the tubes often break, rot, get knocked over, etc and I've replaced at least 300 of them over the last decade. The tubes make great nests for field mice, voles, and wasps. Even if you bury the tubes below grade, they have always raised above ground level in the winter because of frost heaves and the little critters still get in there. The tubes make it much easier to combat weeds with a quick shot of herbicide. I have found the green tubes to be more productive then the tan tubes. I'm not sure if wire would be easier. One thing I would do would be to use 1/4" fiberglass rods instead of 1x1 wood posts.

If your doing it as an investment I give you a big thumbs down

As Big Daddy said above, I don't think it's really worth it if you're doing it JUST as an investment. You are going to be spending a hell of a lot of time out with the trees. If you don't enjoy taking care of them, you will never get the return on your investment that you're looking for.
I think you're correct about fruit trees. If it's not a passion, it's not an option. We planted an fruit orchard the first year we moved out here. We put up fencing to keep the deer out, but it was only 5 feet tall. They jumped over it easily. After years of pruning, spraying, frost damage, freeze damage, cedar rust and everything else, I got sick of it. I bulldozed all but 4 of my favorite apple trees. I don't miss the work at all.

 

[Pat53]

I guess I should have said "a 1000 trees of various species".

Tubes are a pain in the ...but I didn't see wire as a much better alternative. The post holding up the tubes often break, rot, get knocked over, etc and I've replaced at least 300 of them over the last decade. The tubes make great nests for field mice, voles, and wasps. Even if you bury the tubes below grade, they have always raised above ground level in the winter because of frost heaves and the little critters still get in there. The tubes make it much easier to combat weeds with a quick shot of herbicide. I have found the green tubes to be more productive then the tan tubes. I'm not sure if wire would be easier. One thing I would do would be to use 1/4" fiberglass rods instead of 1x1 wood posts.




As Big Daddy said above, I don't think it's really worth it if you're doing it JUST as an investment. You are going to be spending a hell of a lot of time out with the trees. If you don't enjoy taking care of them, you will never get the return on your investment that you're looking for.
I think you're correct about fruit trees. If it's not a passion, it's not an option. We planted an fruit orchard the first year we moved out here. We put up fencing to keep the deer out, but it was only 5 feet tall. They jumped over it easily. After years of pruning, spraying, frost damage, freeze damage, cedar rust and everything else, I got sick of it. I bulldozed all but 4 of my favorite apple trees. I don't miss the work at all.

I really don't think I'll go with grow tubes. I just don't like the fact that the trees grow up with wimpy stems. The tubes only last about 3-4 years before they start degrading and falling apart anyway. The hardware cloth will last 10+ years easily. It will be a lot of work cutting the wire and fencing them, but it will have to be done. I'll have to put some protection around the bottom foot or so of trunk for winter to prevent mice from girdling them and to keep herbicide spray off them also.

I really don't think they will require a lot of regular maintenance. Keeping the competing vegetation killed for the first 3 years or so will be the biggest thing. The trees don't require much pruning at all from what I've read, and just an annual shot of fertilizer, maybe twice a season for the first few years. They don't generally require any pesticide spraying either. There will be some trees that will require some corrective pruning and training each year, but shouldn't be a big problem for the most part. I actually think it will be quite enjoyable to spend time maintaining them and watching their progress from year to year, its kind of something I've always been interested in. I'm hoping the soil conservation district guy doesn't give me a big "thumbs down" on this project. He seemed excited to see my site when I talked with him last week on the phone.

Pat

 

[Pat53]

There is no walnut council in Pennsylvania.

IMO, the first thing you need to do if your serious about selling them is to have them estimated for volume and quality.

 

[McKraut]

I actually think it will be quite enjoyable to spend time maintaining them and watching their progress from year to year, its kind of something I've always been interested in.

That is what is most important. Good luck with your project!

Bob

 

[Hilljack with chainsaw]

Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?

Pat

I considered it 13 years ago and opted not to pursue it as 1) I was already late to the party-SW of Purdue Campus (and I'm sure lots of other places) already had many thousands if not millions planted and 2) I read the hybrids were not that superior to the native species to warrant their cost. I planted a small number of red oak and black cherry instead (35% mortality after 13 years due to deer/poor soil), gambling that the walnut market would be saturated by the time my trees got there. Like you, I really don't care if there is a return. I did it for future generations and the land was idle. I can tell you that a few hundred 15 year old trees generate alot of prunings. Do it if you like trees but don't promise your descendents an early retirement. To see a tree you planted 20 years ago reach 50' is rewarding in itself. Concerning current walnut prices :for a few walnut logs last spring I was only offered 250@ and these were nice straight limb free 20' logs 18 to 24 " in diameter.

 

[Pat53]

I considered it 13 years ago and opted not to pursue it as 1) I was already late to the party-SW of Purdue Campus (and I'm sure lots of other places) already had many thousands if not millions planted and 2) I read the hybrids were not that superior to the native species to warrant their cost. I planted a small number of red oak and black cherry instead (35% mortality after 13 years due to deer/poor soil), gambling that the walnut market would be saturated by the time my trees got there. Like you, I really don't care if there is a return. I did it for future generations and the land was idle. I can tell you that a few hundred 15 year old trees generate alot of prunings. Do it if you like trees but don't promise your descendents an early retirement. To see a tree you planted 20 years ago reach 50' is rewarding in itself. Concerning current walnut prices :for a few walnut logs last spring I was only offered 250@ and these were nice straight limb free 20' logs 18 to 24 " in diameter.

I am definitely not doing it for a return for myself, more of a hobby I guess. Although if I were to sell the property if my kids didn't want it, I would hope that the walnut/black cherry/red oak trees would be worth more than what the native timber would produce. From what I've read, most of the pruning is done in the first 10-15 years. The goal is to get one good straight leader that is free of branches for the first 18-20' . The trees really only need pruning once a year, many will not need any pruning for several years. I think the pruning will be enjoyable anyway.

These trees are NOT hybrids, they are seedlings of genetically superior native trees that have been grown for several generations. Only the best trees of each generation are selected for seed source based on their growth rates and straightness. Same thing with the black cherry and red oak, just genetically superior trees that provide the seed stock for the seedlings. Obviously not all these trees will produce what your looking for, you thin out the weak and undesirable trees over the years and eventually you "hope" to get 40-50 trees/acre that will produce veneer or high quality lumber. A crap shoot? You bet, but I'll probably give it a shot anyway.

I have no idea what walnut log prices currently are now, and I fully expect them to go lower in the immediate years ahead. That's not anything to even consider right now. Hopefully, for all of us, and especially the younger people, the economy 20-30 years from now will be in good shape and hardwood lumber will be in demand. And I still think there is a real possibility that the "thousand canker disease" that is spreading across the country killing walnut trees "could" end up devastating walnut plantations in the east / central US.

Pat

 

[Pat53]

Well, I just finished decking up the last of my softwood, pretty much all red and white pine, mostly red pine. One stack is all red pine logs that will be going to Potlatch for lumber and the other one is just mixed red and white pine that will be going to Newpage for pulp. Total of about 42 full cords by my measuring.

Cutting in the woods was a b#tch this winter. Cutting the old fashion way with a chainsaw, measuring stick and a pickeroon is tough work when there is no snow, but this year was nasty, cold too ! The last month has been especially tough with snow almost up to my @ss. It was even tough for the forwarder I borrowed to go through it,

Once the snow has gone I'm starting on the aspen. Should only be about 20-25 cords of that, the rest will be hardwood, probably 35-40 cords mixed oak and soft maple and a little black cherry. which I'll be keeping most of for firewood. Hope to have the whole thing cut by late next fall. I've changed plans a bit and now I'm thinking of putting in about 2-3 acres of apple trees, some hybrid chestnut trees and some Persian walnuts, and will probably interplant some X-mas trees between the rows. I'll probably end up fencing the whole 6 acres rather than fencing trees individually. I can borrow a skid-steer with a post hole digger attatchment and shouldn't be too bad after that. Quite a project I guess ... LOL

Pat

 

[mike van]

Just my .02 Pat, if you want to plant something that gives a return in 25 years, I'd do sugar maples. Demand for real syrup is on the rise, as more and more discover just how bad MSG and high fructose really is. Better living through chemistry is just not that believable any more. My 25 years of sawmilling have given me a little insight on walnuts, the first being that they're firewood unless someone wants the lumber. Smaller trees, like 50 years and younger have so much sapwood, such light heartwood, I don't believe you'll ever find someone to pay good money for them. The larger 100+ year old ones, they have heartwood so dark it's almost purple. 25 years ago I planted just 5, bareroot. One died, the biggest now is about 14" dbh. the smallest about 9". All have nuts now, but unless you want to sit out there and shoot all the squirrels, you'll never get any. Grass brush and weeds do grow under them, not like they're self trimming.

 

[JASFARMER]

Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?

It's winter, so that generally means I'm bored out of my mind ! I'm just itchin' to fire up the Husky and start dropping timber....LOL. I've got about 6 acres across the road from my house that is mainly second growth aspen, soft maple and white birch, with some red oak, black cherry and red/white pine mixed in. I've been reading a lot about people who plant timber species, especially black walnut, as future investment trees. Now I'll never see a stick of wood from these trees, but my kids/grandkids should some day.

Purdue University has been working with black walnut and other timber species like oak and black cherry for years and have now produced genetically superior stock that grows straighter and faster than regular native trees. My local soil conservation guy is coming out to look at the site next week. If he likes it I can get a 50/50 cost-share for buying the seedlings and some other expenses. I figure it would cost me about $4,500 for the seedlings, tree fencing/shelters and fertilizer without any cost share money. I can probably get at least that much for the aspen, birch and pine logs alone. The maple, cherry and oak I would probably just keep for firewood, maybe sell a few oak logs if they are any good.

I figure I could clear cut the whole thing by March and have everything decked up a few weeks later.

Am I NUTS !?

Pat

I did not plant black walnut trees, but I do have thousands of them on my farm. Just had some cut last spring/summer. The logger was nice enough to tell me to wait about ten years to harvest the rest because the would be bigger, veneer quality. Said I would get about 4 times the money of what he would have paid me then. ( couldn't get that much if I put the money on the bank for ten years). There is a lot of money in walnut trees, but they take A LONG time to grow . He told me that with the size of the trees I had ( the smaller ones were roughly 20 inch dbh) that they would grow on average 1/4 inch per year.
In my opinion if you had the land and time it would make a great investment for your future generations just as long as you know it will probably be over 50 years