I was thinking it would be about the same or a little higher too, I guess there's more to putting out btu's than size.
Beta testing Woodstock's Ideal Steel Hybrid
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Paul L
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Tom at Woodstock was kind enough to offer this explanation:
"The simple answer is that BTU/hr rating has nothing to do with firebox size. BTU/hr rating is basically a speed and efficiency rating. The (1) greater the number of POUNDS OF WOOD consumed per hour, and the (2) higher the OVERALL EFFICIENCY the higher the BTU/hr output."
There may be further details eventually posted on the WS blog.
I sure wish I could have Beta tested the Ideal, it seems like an amazing accomplishment.
My hearth would have been a nightmare rebuild since it's a front loader.
My hearth would have been a nightmare rebuild since it's a front loader.
Same here Tony. That and the door opening on the wrong side. But it would still have been good to give that thing a good workout.
I'll bet WS would have lent us one of those fancy Hearth pads to help out with the test. Maybe a couple sheets of cement board would have worked for temporary testing.
Hmmm, that contradicts the well-worn hearth.com commandment, "Bigger fire box equals more heat....bigger space needs a bigger stove."
I'm gonna have to read more about this stove. Seems that I saw that the output can be dialed way down. Maybe I could run it without roasting myself out of this moderately leak, not-too-well insulated 1000 sq.ft. house....especially if we end up adding another room. It's always nice to have additional firepower when you need it....like all winter this year.
I would love to have a seamless steel box that I can rear-vent. Not many of those to pick from.
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The Progress is a side loading stove. The IS is front loading. There has to be at least 18" non-combustible clearance from the loading door, which for the IS is in the front. This is in case ebers are spilled.
Think of a fireplace that can hold 5 cuft of wood. It can crank out massive BTU's, but since the efficiency is so low (most the heat goes up the flue), the BTU/HR delivered is very low. Efficiency is a key part of the equation.
Wife and I are considering a new wood stove for the house. We heat our house 24/7 with the wood stove, primary heat, regardless of outside temp/wind conditions. Our current stove new in 1990 performs well, but this winter's seemingly endless -20 to -35F nights and -teens days raised our interest. Therefore I have been following this thread.
Since I also have a Tarm gasification boiler and have done serious efficiency testing on Tarm, Froling, Wood Gun and Garn, I have lots of experience with
Since I also have a Tarm gasification boiler and have done serious efficiency testing on Tarm, Froling, Wood Gun and Garn, I have lots of experience with
. It would have been, still might be, very informative to do weighed wood burns with the Steel. At assumed available 6040 btu/lb of seasoned wood burned, we could see quite accurately btu input to the stove, and although calculating btu output is difficult with a wood stove, a person could take the advertised ratings, and then (rated output) / (weighed wood calculated input) = (efficiency). While this wouldn't be laboratory accurate, it would give a real world picture of actual stove performance in a wood burning user's environment. Maybe the weather is now too warm to do this, as an extended continous 24/7 burn period with high to maximum output likely would give the most accurate result.
I saw a comment that a steel piece inside the stove appeared to be stressed. Is it easily replaceable? Stressed or warped interior components, likely due to high heat, are red flags pointing towards future maintenance.
Our 1990 vintage wood stove has a steel secondary burn plate at the top of the firebox, and I have to replace that every 2-5+ years because the high heat oxidizes the steel plate and it deteriorates over time. The mfr of my stove was no help in getting a replacement plate, so I now make my own and replace the plate at the beginning of the heating season if the existing plate show signs of deterioration. As to a replacement, I have found that the quality of the steel plate make a big difference in how long the plate lasts before needing replacement. "Big box" bar stock has burned out in 2 years, while bar stock bought from a local steel supply company lasts up to 5 years or longer.
Our 1990 vintage wood stove has a steel secondary burn plate at the top of the firebox, and I have to replace that every 2-5+ years because the high heat oxidizes the steel plate and it deteriorates over time. The mfr of my stove was no help in getting a replacement plate, so I now make my own and replace the plate at the beginning of the heating season if the existing plate show signs of deterioration. As to a replacement, I have found that the quality of the steel plate make a big difference in how long the plate lasts before needing replacement. "Big box" bar stock has burned out in 2 years, while bar stock bought from a local steel supply company lasts up to 5 years or longer.
Huntindog1
Minister of Fire
Hmmm, that contradicts the well-worn hearth.com commandment, "Bigger fire box equals more heat....bigger space needs a bigger stove."
I'm gonna have to read more about this stove. Seems that I saw that the output can be dialed way down. Maybe I could run it without roasting myself out of this moderately leak, not-too-well insulated 1000 sq.ft. house....especially if we end up adding another room. It's always nice to have additional firepower when you need it....like all winter this year.
I would love to have a seamless steel box that I can rear-vent. Not many of those to pick from.
Yep the bigger the fire box the more BTU's. A Cat Wood Stove with a Catalytic Combustor allows the stove to keep burning efficiently even when the stove is turned down to really low output Heat settings. Your BTU's are still there but are going to output over a longer period of time. The thing to remember when a stove is at its lowest input air setting. That means its at its lowest thru put air flow setting meaning the air flow thru the stove is so low and slow that more heat has more time to get radiated out into the room before flushing up and out the flue. Cat stoves can be turned down to lower heat output than non-cat stoves thus gettng longer burn times and more controllable heat. The steel with its Hybrid design with the best of both worlds has a really wide range of control while getting the max efficiency. For those of you new to this concept, Hybrid stoves have a cat (Like a cat only Stove) and secondary air baffles ( like non-cat stoves have).
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I'm going to read through all the threads on this stove again but until I do that, can someone tell me what the ash system is? If it has a grate, this stove will be close to having everything I want, even though it's truthfully a bit large unless we add a room. Even then, the room will be well-insulated and sealed so the stove would still probably be more than I would really need. But if it can burn low enough....
Hey, I think I have another flue in the chimney I could use....I could be a two-stove guy. A shoulder stove and a polar vortex stove.
Hey, I think I have another flue in the chimney I could use....I could be a two-stove guy. A shoulder stove and a polar vortex stove.
Is the question
I also agree that a stove with a big firebox combined with well seasoned wood, excellent combustion design, very good secondary burn, little to no smoke, and no smoldering delivers more btu's than a stove that does all the same but has a smaller firebox. Satisfying one parameter does not a good stove make.
or is the question the btu's actually delivered through heat transfer to heat the living space? I think we all could agree that a big firebox filled with less than well seasoned wood has lots of btu's but a whole lot of those are being consumed to dry out the wood and are not delivered as heat. And agree that a big firebox but inefficient combustion design, resulting in any or all of poor secondary burn, smoke, smoldering, excessively high flue temperature, also is not delivering the btu's as heat. As an outrageous example, my old OWB (granted, not a wood stove) burned 2-3 times the wood that my Tarm gasification boiler burns and delivered less heat to my heated space, but the OWB had a massive firebox compared to my Tarm.
I also agree that a stove with a big firebox combined with well seasoned wood, excellent combustion design, very good secondary burn, little to no smoke, and no smoldering delivers more btu's than a stove that does all the same but has a smaller firebox. Satisfying one parameter does not a good stove make.
I think the original question was " why does the Ideal Steal deliver lower BTU/HR than the Progress when the IS has a bigger firebox".
The answer has to do with a balance between efficiency, burn time and emissions.
The answer has to do with a balance between efficiency, burn time and emissions.
On our stove a simple piece that held the soapstone firebox lining in place at the top showed some heat stress. Woodstock said the design was already modified in more recent stoves (I think our stove is one of the earlier ones), so they will be gathering wear-and-tear data from the more recent beta testers on that aspect. Otherwise this stove has been what you'd expect from a big steel box - very rugged and care-free.
On a side note, based on their experience servicing the early PH stoves, the Ideal Steel was designed for easier access to individual components.
osagebow
Minister of Fire
Thanks for the detailed info flamestead- got the wife on board and emailed WS to get in on the rollout.
I have not operated a non-hybrid EPA stove, but I think the practical advantage is the controllable range of heat while exceeding the EPA requirements. Cat for the low end, secondaries for the upper end.
I wanted to clarify something with the Beta testers. I am having a mason start some work on my existing masonry fireplace to accommodate the IS. I will likely be lowering and extending the hearth.
In previous threads from Beta testers the stove depth was said to be 23 inches. However, the new information on Woodstock's website is saying the depth is 27 inches. Is the additional 4 inches from the ash lip? Also, I am a bit confused on the front clearance requirement. Lets assume the front clearance is 16". The stove sits ~4" off the hearth, the hearth is raised 6", so the stove would have to sit 6" from the front of the hearth to achieve the 16"?
In previous threads from Beta testers the stove depth was said to be 23 inches. However, the new information on Woodstock's website is saying the depth is 27 inches. Is the additional 4 inches from the ash lip? Also, I am a bit confused on the front clearance requirement. Lets assume the front clearance is 16". The stove sits ~4" off the hearth, the hearth is raised 6", so the stove would have to sit 6" from the front of the hearth to achieve the 16"?
Just call them directly. I think there might be a new rear heat shield, but they will be able to answer all your questions.
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