Baker flue adapter ? custom fab job

[WoodButcher80]

hmm, very clever.

do people typically ovalize 4' of the liner, then go from the top down with their liners? im assuming they ovalize to fit past the damper frame BEFORE they slide it down the chimney. that masonry chimney must be large enough to fit an ovalized 8" round pipe then. im sure mine is....


finally, should i get a ico-8 or ico-10 adapter ? go to page 9 of this PDF file (broken link removed to http://www.cannedheat.com/images/Pro) Tech/forms/Ventinox_catalog.pdf

i WILL be using an 8" liner , so the ico-8 is for the capactiy of 8" round pipes i assume. does that mean if i get 20' of 8" round pipe, ovalize it, this will slip right on it?

another forewarning: my baker has a rectangular plate the width of the firebox and half the depth(its in the back) that is just below the outlet, about 3" underneath. i guess it works as a permanent heat absorber or something to keep the heat in the box. it has the blower pipes attached to it.
in other words, the smoke has to follow gravity around this cafeteria-tray-sized plate to go up the outlet though the liner and out the chimney. if you look in this pic, its where the persons initials are. i took a pic of the inside as well.

can i still access the draw-down kit or will i be screwed and need to drill and bolt? if i could install the kit from the top, it be ok, but the bottom of the outlet hole is unaccessible from in the firebox (see pic)

 

[woodgeek]

About the adapter...the info online is pretty unclear. I'm pretty sure I got the -8 equivalent. I'd call the guy selling it to be sure. You can check the kit inventory list--if they list the -8 adapter with the 8" ovalized liner then it should be ok.

The adapter I bought was maybe 0.25" bigger than my liner all the way around, which I was not crazy about. I screwed the liner and boot together for a mech connect, and filled the gap with rutland cement. I guess this is better than having the liner be too big!

As for the other question.....urg. I came at mine from inside of the stove and it was still a bit of cursing the get the bolts and wingnuts together. So, let me get this straight...you have a stove with a rectangular vent, that needs a 8" liner and has a welded-in baffle plate blocking all access to the vent! And you've got 4" clearance on the fireplace lintel. I'm also worried about the raised welding lip you've got around the vent--the adapter will need to be a tad oversize to accept and sit flush on the stovetop.

After reading an earlier post....please tell me the shroud on this guy comes off and isn't welded on too!

Overall, I'd say there's a good chance you're gonna have to 'get creative'. I sure I could have gotten my adapter attached with the drawdown kit from the top side, but not with the insert in the fireplace. Not clear you can still clear the lintel after you get the adapter attached (by pulldown or screws). Even then, not clear how you screw/cement the flex to the adapter after the whole shebang is in the fireplace. Do you happen to know a double-jointed midget? If so, I've got some work for him too!

Anyways...I'd get some dimensions from the folks I was buying from, stare at my stove and fireplace for a while, cross my fingers and order everything if I wasn't hopeless. If your pieces don't fit together, return them or cut them down to fit.

On the bright side--with a liner, you'll only have to deal with all this nonsense once.

 

[bsruther]

My boot being in two pieces made it much easier to install. I put the stove in and prefit the boot, then pulled it out and attached the upper piece to the liner. I then put the stove back in, attached the bottom piece to the stove and bolted the two pieces together. It wasn't too bad.
I looked on Google last night to try and find the place I got mine but couldn't find it. I found the same kit but it was only for sale to dealers. I got my damper cover with the kit but I agree that it would be easy enough to fab one. You have to cut on it anyway to get it to fit.

Wear some old clothes because it's a very dirty job. I put a tarp down and my wife still had to steam clean the carpet and wash the drapes.

 

[WoodButcher80]

well , i think i need a double jointed midget. i measured the stove , and from bottom to absolute firebox top its 24.5"` . well, from the bottom brick on the fireplace floor to the lintel is 25.5 " , leaving me 1" to spare. great fit if i dont need an adapter. .

well at least its only 4.5" thick of lintel and then the smoke chamber starts... giving more room for my double jointed midget to work !

btw, the shroud IS welded. .. ugh . im lost.

 

[bsruther]

That's tight, I had three inches to work with. I think an anorexic would benefit you more than a midget.

 

[woodgeek]

yikes. that shroud is a killer.

So, of course, the critical dimension is how far forward can you have the stove before a (hypothetical) adapter (over 1" height) would smack into the lintel. Now, if the stove were pulled that far forward, would you be able to 'reach around' (from the side, since I assume your forearms are more than 1" thick) to tighten a fastener? If so, you could still attach woodford's two-piece adapter, or some 'screw down' type adapter (which would require drilling and tapping your stove). Then you could shove the insert home and let the flex accommodate.

Otherwise, I think you're boned. Even with a custom boot that fit under the lintel, you wouldn't be able to screw/cement the liner to it.

Are you sure you can't reach around the baffle on the inside?

 

[WoodButcher80]

well , i just got back from the garage and got dirty again, i got my hand halfway until i got stuck in between my figers and my elbow. i tried to reach a wrench that i stuck in from the top, and i was about 6-8" from the rectangle outlet where the wrench is. the problem is the baffle is so darn thick. its 2" from the top outlet, and tapers. the shroud looks like it could get in the way big time... man this sucks.

 

[bsruther]

How thick is the metal on the top of the stove? Is it thick enough to drill and tap?

wine and beer sales consultant??
You actually get paid to do that?

 

[WoodButcher80]

its not too thick. im sure i can drill and tap it . but the issue still remains: how can i attach it to the insert with 1" clearance to the lintel and a welded shroud thatll be hard to get around, if not impossible.

and yes,

i get paid to drink beer and wine all day and sell it to clients. but hey, its still sales. not all fun and games.

 

[bsruther]

Ok, how about this...What if you prefit the boot to the top of the stove and tapped into the boot and then screwed the bolts up
from under the top plate. Does the baffle allow enough room to do this?
No matter what you do, sealing everything is going to be a whole nuther issue.

 

[WoodButcher80]

no, it doesnt allow enough room . as you can see in the pic on the right, your supposed to get your arm above those heat transfer pipes that the baffle connects to. that view is from the front of the stove, looking up and back. i only got halfway to my elbow! i think my only bet is to


from the back of the stove(where the outlet is) to the shroud is 13" . from the back of the stove to the front edge of the outlet is 6" . lets assume we need about 8" because the insert boot adapter is bigger than my hole, probably just barely. so that means we need 8" of the back past the lintel, thus leaving up with 5" remaining before the welded shroud WHICH will be under the lintel. crap!

 

[woodgeek]

Sorry dude. Quite a pickle.

I like to think every problem has a sol'n, but in your case I think that means getting a new stove, mod'ing the fireplace facing or cutting off that shroud/surround. In the last case, you could leave a little flange around the sides to anchor a new surround to. There are general purpose insert surrounds out there (I once went shopping for one more attractive than mine), or you could fab/paint a custom one, or (if you had a sturdy block-off) decide to live without a surround.

 

[WoodButcher80]

i drove 400 miles to get that stove. i dont plan on selling it just yet. its too much of a gem . built like a battleship , only heavier. ill call my Sweep up and see if he can come out and figure something out. he is a vendor and installs Buck stoves , so hell know. . . i hope any other suggestions? i thank you all for your help! priceless.

 

[WoodButcher80]

well guys. i got a proposal. what if i 'temporarily' slid the insert into the fireplace-which fits nice and tight as we know- and insulated the hell out of it so no air/smoke escapes, and not hooked up a boot adapter or flex connector?

now BEFORE you start yelling at me, i was just thinking seeing how i looked at my brothers old Brunco manual for his coal/wood stove and it doesnt even recommend a flex adapter, just to inline the outlet with the chimney flue to get even draft. in fact, my brother called up Brunco and they said 'why are you using that if you have adequate draft? ' . i know the dangers and the draft issues this causes... but put yourself in my situation and drove far away to get a stove, have a cord of wood, and want to use this thing for something seeing how its taking up 25 sq ft on my garage floor.

seeing how i have a short stack (est 18') , my draft might be too crappy to do anything. . . but at least its out of the garage.

oh, and im STILL going to talk to my Sweep and see what he thinks before i do anything silly.

any thoughts?

 

[woodgeek]

DON'T DO IT!

Aaah reasons....

1. You are proposing a 'slammer'. They are not legal per the current code. Installing a slammer config in 2008 is a criminal act.

2. When I moved in to my house, the stove was a slammer ( a very common story ) and I burned a few loads like that. The draft was so poor it was impossible to get a clean burn, and I've got a interior stack almost twice as tall as yours. Being a geek, I estimated heat output by timing the decrease in cycling of my oil burner vs weight of wood burned. I got ~30% in slammer mode, ~55% after direct connect/block-off plate. Bottom line--burning like that is also a waste of your wood, your time, and all the lungs in the neighborhood.

3. The config you propose sounds like a poster-child for flow reversal--an under-attended stove with a short exterior stack that you'll have to choke down to get a trickle of heat out of. The lean burn will boost CO, and at the end of the cycle it could reverse and flood you garage with CO. Now, I know its a garage, but do you know that the stack effect from you heated house doesn't continually draw air from you attached garage?

So, the code exists for a reason--slammers killed people, including people with clean chimneys.

Flame on.

 

[bsruther]

If you are determined to get that stove in there, maybe you could cut an access hole in the back side of the chimney and attach the flue from there. Then you could either brick it back in or mount a steel frame with an access plate cover.

 

[woodgeek]

Ditto on Woodford's idea.

 

[WoodButcher80]

hmm. i could do that . sounds simpler. why not make a mess on the outside than on the inside .

though im worried :

1. how deep is the brick to get to the stove.

2. will i be able to reach in there far enough into the smoke chamber to reach an insert thats only in the chamber halfway to begin with?

3. what kind of tool to use(i may have it)

4. how big a hole you think ?

it probably be a good idea to do the pilot hole with a long masonry bit from the inside and poke out so i know where to put the square. that is if i go this way.

 

[bsruther]

1.You'll find out how thick the brick is when you drill the hole from the inside.
2.You'll prolly have to take some measurements to see if you'll have enough reach.
3.You'll have to figure out which masonry cutting tool works best. I would start with a brick cutting wheel that goes on a grinder.
They work great. It may not cut deep enough though.
4.If it was me, I'd make the hole pretty big. Big enough to get your shoulders in.

Also if it were me doing it, I'd make the cover for the hole out of something thick and high quality. I'd make it to look like it belonged there.
Do you have a welder or know someone that does?
I would really think this thing out.

One last thing...Check to see if local code allows for this sort of thing.
If it were me, I'd sell the stove and get something that fits, but you seem determined.

 

[WoodButcher80]

i wonder if i can cut part of the lintel out? it has a horizontal steel support brace about 1/16" thick running the length. if i could cut a 5"wide by 4" high access hole i could slide the stove in and connect the adapter. and the shroud would cover up the gouge in the fireplace.

btw, i measured the flue, its 12" in diameter all the way down! might help in draft.

 

[WoodButcher80]

ok guys, heres an update.

im not cutting the lintel or the outside chimney. when i move, i wanna take this beast with me, and thats gonna be one ugly chunk out of the fireplace.

since i have a coal/wood stove, and my stove is notoriously efficient with coal, i posted to my fav coal forum site. if your interested to see what they think and can help more, please click below . i put some good ideas there. i owe you guys a beer !

http://nepacrossroads.com/post74354.html#p74354

 

[woodgeek]

Thanks for the update...looks like you decided to cut off the $%%$*@*# welded on surround. With a good block-off, you can just run open like that and get better heat xfer. If you prefer, you can always attach a new surround later, at your convenience. I'm curious--what's the guage on the surround, and how're you gonna cut it?

 

[WoodButcher80]

just measured it for you . its 5/8" thick on the outer decorative fram of the shroud, BUT 1/8" thick where it welds to the firebox. im just gonna cut at the welds i guess with my 4" angle grinder? i figure then i can pull the insert more out into the room so then i get better heat transfer.

UPDATE: i just measured my flue and its 17' from top of flue to bottom of brick hearth floor. so minus 3' roughly and its a 14' flue liner . im just hoping if i get 7" flex liner and ovalize it, itll fit on the ICO-8 . ill have to call them before ordering.

any suggestions?

 

[WoodButcher80]

also, forgot to ask you geek, with your draw down kit... im assuming i need to access both sides of the stove(slide it over when done with one side) to get to both sides of the draw down adapter.

1.squirt some sealant in there all the way around it.
2. screw down the ovalized pipe on each side of the adapter(how many screws hold it on?)
3. how does this draw down thing work? do you tighten it in the middle of the hole where the crossbars are?

 

[woodgeek]

Well, hold your horses now....

Thing one, I wouldn't try to combine a 7" liner with the an 8" adapter--that's gonna be a mighty big gap around the sides (1/2" average all the way around)
to try to seal up.

Thing two, If I understand your dimensions, I really don't think you'll be able to operate the drawdown kit reaching around with the works in the fireplace. I think your surround removal plan is going to require a screw down adapter. After cutting of the surround with a grinder, drilling and tapping a few holes doesn't sound so bad. That is, you'll get the whole adapter, liner, block off plate and sealant done in place with the stove out of the fireplace (w/ perhaps a box to hold the weight). This way you'll have plenty of access to get at all the details and futzing around. THEN, you'll slide the stove in with a bead of cement where it meets the adapter, and you'll just be inserting 2-4 hold down screws while 'reaching around'.

I think you still have searching/shopping to do to find a screw down or two-piece adapter, and I really don't have any experience with what's out there.....

FYI, the folks around here would rec you use SS screws and some copper based anti-seize if you ever want to get them (and your stove) out again.