Sorry for your troubles Hunter. It's never good to see someone suffering with this kind of stuff. Saving money is important to all of us. Too bad there are people who are willing to take advantage of this. Good luck!
Bad Contractor - Western PA
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IPLUMB said:
Magnets are not necessarily attracted to all stainless steel. They don't work on my liner, the revere ware pans, the dog bowl... etc. My liner is stainless, then has insulation and then an outer layer of aluminum liner. It's pretty thick but is visibly quite different from the stainless steel. Can't think how to explain it other than the aluminum is dull, and the stainless a bit darker and shinier.
I'm not certain that all stainless will attract a magnet (perhaps all stainless used for flues is?) I think it depends on the grade of stainless.
Just to add some more advice from experience:
- The BBB is a waste of your time. They are in business to make money off of businesses who want to portray themselves as certified by some third party and therefore less risky to do business with. BBB is not in the business of protecting consumers, so don't expect filing a complaint with them to either be resolved in any short amount of time, or really bring any benefit to you at all. I went to them with what I believe to be an obvious unscrupulous contractor, the details of which I won't bore you with, and they did nothing - the guy is still "A+" rated.
- The AG's office isn't likely to be much more of a help. They have real criminals to deal with. I have no direct experience with filing a consumer complaint, but its a very educated guess.
- Craigslist is not a good place to go for services. I know this one from experience. I found my wood supplier there and have had good luck with some sales, but you have to be very cautious with who you find there to perform services. If they were any good, likely they would not need to advertise there.
My advice is to chalk it up to "live and learn", let it go, and have someone else fix this guys problems. I have always found that letting it go is the hardest part. I do think you should try to make others aware and steer business away from this guy, and do what you can to get him to fix the issues, but when its clear there is no more else you can do, try to move on and use your energy on more useful pursuits. Just my 2 cents based on similar unfortunate experience.
- The BBB is a waste of your time. They are in business to make money off of businesses who want to portray themselves as certified by some third party and therefore less risky to do business with. BBB is not in the business of protecting consumers, so don't expect filing a complaint with them to either be resolved in any short amount of time, or really bring any benefit to you at all. I went to them with what I believe to be an obvious unscrupulous contractor, the details of which I won't bore you with, and they did nothing - the guy is still "A+" rated.
- The AG's office isn't likely to be much more of a help. They have real criminals to deal with. I have no direct experience with filing a consumer complaint, but its a very educated guess.
- Craigslist is not a good place to go for services. I know this one from experience. I found my wood supplier there and have had good luck with some sales, but you have to be very cautious with who you find there to perform services. If they were any good, likely they would not need to advertise there.
My advice is to chalk it up to "live and learn", let it go, and have someone else fix this guys problems. I have always found that letting it go is the hardest part. I do think you should try to make others aware and steer business away from this guy, and do what you can to get him to fix the issues, but when its clear there is no more else you can do, try to move on and use your energy on more useful pursuits. Just my 2 cents based on similar unfortunate experience.
Franks said:
BUT.. in their minds they also saved $500 on the stove in the first place. Never mind the fact that they got less stove, or not as nicely as made stove. they beat "your" price by $500 right off the top (in their eyes). AND they got the $450 credit. See that mentality all the time in the computer world.
Was assuming you purchased the insert yourself and hired him just for install. A lot of these guys really don't know how things should be done. Years ago they used to just slam these stoves in with no liner at all. This area of expertise, like firewood dealers, is riddled with trailer trash Jerry Springers. I'm not even talking double wide trash, those double wides can be nice. They do need weeding out but will never happen.hunterpa64 said:
Why did you have to purchase it on his account? Did he get it at a discounted price or something? Mind telling me what you paid for yours? I will share what I paid for mine.
And I got it cheap. I agree with you disagreeing. Didn't know you bought through him. Sorry man.
They are always going to go by the book. They can't tell you it will be ok without one because they can be held liable. But hey, you got it now and that's better than none. Did he put a top plate on it? You said it was loose, the top plate should have held it in place some. A liner kit normally comes with the top plate and rain cap.
How long is your hearth? Did he install the insert flush on the sides. This insert does stick out further than most, which is a good thing if the power goes out.
Yeah definitely check to make sure it isn't aluminum. I VERY seriously doubt that it's liner left over from another job. No way he would have 15 feet leftover from another job. He could have got that liner on the cheap. This could mean it is not stainless steel. Why else would he be dodgy?
Did you save a bunch of money with this guy? If the liner turns out to be SS, I would just let it all go. The stove it installed, the chitty blockoff plate will last a while and if not, you can replace easily. If you saved a bunch of money, it sounds like everything is fine now. You can get those stainless steel liners online for as cheap as 300-400 bucks. If the current liner is SS, it will last a while. By the time it goes out, you will have saved enough money in heating to replace it 100 times.
Well, we'll see what happens.
These guys get away with this because people write it off. Here in PA, I'm pretty certain the AG's office takes fraud seriously. At the very least he'll need to explain why he ordered 5 extra collar plates on my install. I have that invoice in black & white. I guess that's why he kept putting me off when I repaeatedly ask him for the invoice.
To me, credability means alot. At that point of calling the invoice and ordering fraud to attention, I think it will raise an eyebrow. Recently in PA all contractors were required to become licensed just to prevent this type of scamming. I also believe I should have the right to have documents regarding my products. If everything was on the up and up why would this be an issue?
It's a relatively rural area we live in. Word travels fast. I'm sure I must not be the only one he has scammed.
I know when I told him about the 28" clearance he said he called all of his previous installs and had them measure to make sure they we're compliant. If a guy has been installing 18 years tha could take awhile. I think he's been a contractor 18 years but I'd question whether it was all stove and chimney installs. His ads state that, to me that's false advertising if the rumors I hear are true. My 2nd contractor, also local and very good said he never heard of him installing stoves but thought he was a painter. Said he noticed some chimney supplies laying around his garage recently.
I'll jump through the hoops with the BBB & AG etc. Then if no satisfaction is received I'll be happy to take some pictures and giv the guy some free advertisement on Craigslist, here and wherever else. I won't even say anything derrogatory about him, just that here's some pic's of my install from ABC Co. What more could a business ask for than to have some free advertisement? Apparently he's proud of his work so why not show it off alittle for him?
These guys get away with this because people write it off. Here in PA, I'm pretty certain the AG's office takes fraud seriously. At the very least he'll need to explain why he ordered 5 extra collar plates on my install. I have that invoice in black & white. I guess that's why he kept putting me off when I repaeatedly ask him for the invoice.
To me, credability means alot. At that point of calling the invoice and ordering fraud to attention, I think it will raise an eyebrow. Recently in PA all contractors were required to become licensed just to prevent this type of scamming. I also believe I should have the right to have documents regarding my products. If everything was on the up and up why would this be an issue?
It's a relatively rural area we live in. Word travels fast. I'm sure I must not be the only one he has scammed.
I know when I told him about the 28" clearance he said he called all of his previous installs and had them measure to make sure they we're compliant. If a guy has been installing 18 years tha could take awhile. I think he's been a contractor 18 years but I'd question whether it was all stove and chimney installs. His ads state that, to me that's false advertising if the rumors I hear are true. My 2nd contractor, also local and very good said he never heard of him installing stoves but thought he was a painter. Said he noticed some chimney supplies laying around his garage recently.
I'll jump through the hoops with the BBB & AG etc. Then if no satisfaction is received I'll be happy to take some pictures and giv the guy some free advertisement on Craigslist, here and wherever else. I won't even say anything derrogatory about him, just that here's some pic's of my install from ABC Co. What more could a business ask for than to have some free advertisement? Apparently he's proud of his work so why not show it off alittle for him?
:lol: :snake:Franks said:
I had a friend help me. Honestly, if he had not just had his installed and watched them do it, I probably wouldn't have tried it myself with his help. We also consulted a little bit with the local store. I could have bought the liner for 400 on the internet, but I paid 700 through the local dealer. Good people.
They only charged 500 for the install, but I just didn't have the money. You are right on the money with this stuff being dangerous. I really had to trust my friend and myself. I would have probably slept better the first few nights if the dealer installed. He's a damn idiot! Wish I had you living across the street. You would be so sick of seeing my face, cause I would be picking your mind all day!
No offense, but you have to adapt with the changes if you want to survive. I'm the executor of my Grandmother's estate. She worked for 46 years for the newspaper and died 2 months after retiring. She invested every penny of her extra money in her newspapers stock. When she died the stock was worth 66 bucks a share. Now that same stock is worth about a dollar a share. She had about 10000 shares when I sold it for 46 bucks a share. The internet has killed the newspapers and their advertising revenue. If she had lived and held her shares to sell now for retirement, she would have about 10k to live off the rest of her retirement (outside SS). Technology can be evil to businesses that can't adjust for it. I don't know what the future holds for many dealers, but I hope you guys figure out a way to adjust. On a side note, do companies like Jotul etc forbid you from selling their products online?
Oh hell yeah! I pay a pro all the time. They just normally end up being a friend or family member that will do it on the side for cheap.
People are dumber than they used to be. If you are deciding to heat your home with fire, you should have the responsibility to read and read and research what your doing. You can't have a professional there every time you have a fire. Sometimes it is better to do things or at least help do things on your own so you can trust it was done right. You care about who is riding in the car, mechanic at the shop doesn't. He is there for a paycheck and wants to get off at 5 so he can relax with a few beers before calling it a night. Anyway, in the end your right. Corrie:
He said his credit was maxed out and needed me to order everything. The price is kinda strange. The stove listed for like $1500 plus the door almost $200, but when I got the copy of the invoice from Copperfield to his account it listed the stove at like $1161, plus door.
Yeah theres a top plate. It was all ordered separately not as a kit. When I said it was loose I meant from side to side in the 13 x 13 tile chimney. Just pushingthe brush down through it was alittle scarey. The liner had alot of play. He had told me prior that the reason he was ordering the 25 ft blanket was 1) that's the only length sold and 2) he would use the remainder to pack the chimnet tight then pour mix to fill the tile chimney.
I swear that's exactly what he told me that he had this liner just laying around his garage, 15 ft. Here's an exact quote from one of his emails, "I Gave you a liner that was left from another job as stated to you in your driveway." Now tell me how you end up with 15 ft of extra liner if your not a scammer? Just like he ended up with 10 Ft of blanket and 5 collar plates at my expense.
Dodgy, exactly. Like I said, if it's a legit liner why would you hesitate to provide a receipt or info on it?
If it SS? So how long is awhile? And how do I find out it's shot? When my house burns down? There' just wayyyyyyy too many unanswered questions with this guy to let this drop.
He said his credit was maxed out and needed me to order everything. The price is kinda strange. The stove listed for like $1500 plus the door almost $200, but when I got the copy of the invoice from Copperfield to his account it listed the stove at like $1161, plus door.
Yeah theres a top plate. It was all ordered separately not as a kit. When I said it was loose I meant from side to side in the 13 x 13 tile chimney. Just pushingthe brush down through it was alittle scarey. The liner had alot of play. He had told me prior that the reason he was ordering the 25 ft blanket was 1) that's the only length sold and 2) he would use the remainder to pack the chimnet tight then pour mix to fill the tile chimney.
I swear that's exactly what he told me that he had this liner just laying around his garage, 15 ft. Here's an exact quote from one of his emails, "I Gave you a liner that was left from another job as stated to you in your driveway." Now tell me how you end up with 15 ft of extra liner if your not a scammer? Just like he ended up with 10 Ft of blanket and 5 collar plates at my expense.
Dodgy, exactly. Like I said, if it's a legit liner why would you hesitate to provide a receipt or info on it?
If it SS? So how long is awhile? And how do I find out it's shot? When my house burns down? There' just wayyyyyyy too many unanswered questions with this guy to let this drop.
Dakotas Dad said:
That's because tax credits suck. I don't like refunds. I prefer to actually pay taxes. Go ahead and gasp at that concept. Time is money right? If I offered you 400 bucks now or 450 bucks to be accepted in middle of 2011, what would you take? People are always surprised when I tell them I opt for the least amount of money to be taken out of my checks as possible. Why would you do that Corrie? Well it's simple, why would I want to overpay the government thousands each year for them to simply return my money back to me at a later date in time without interest? I could take the money that I overpay them and invest it with higher returns on my investment. Hell .01 percent interest on my investment is greater than a investment in overpaid taxes. However, if I owe taxes, it's about the same as taking a loan from the government with no interest, and I get to spend the money now. ( not that I do that on purpose )
So in this example:
Franks Stove $2000 retail. Tax credit of $600 net cost of $1400
Joe's online china stove $1500 retail ($500 less) $450 credit net cost $1050
If someone buys from Joes, they get 500 bucks right NOW vs Franks and lose 150 bucks in 2011 or they can lose 500 bucks NOW and gain 150 bucks in 2011. Using that example, I could invest that 500 bucks to make me money OR I can buy things with that 500 bucks and enjoy those things for damn near a year by the time I would get those 500 bucks back from buying with Franks. Being that time is money and time with things is money, I would gain money from spending more time with my things I bought with that money during that year up to 2011. Another example, I could buy a chainsaw now for 500 and cut enough wood in the next year to burn for years for free, saving me 700+ next year in wood purchases etc. Now if I had to wait till 2011 to buy that chainsaw because I paid 2000 at Franks, I would lose that 700 bucks in free wood I could have had if I had been cutting my own wood in 2010 etc. That's just an example.
These rationales are all under the premise of getting the same stove at Joe Online China Stove versus Franks Stove. If they are different stoves then one would have to weigh the pros and cons of both stoves. Not all stoves bought online are BS China stoves. Funny Franks gave that example as I purchased my gold plated webbed door Napoleon 1402 online for 1635. The closest in price that the local store had was a Lopi for 2k. It had a smaller firebox and no gold plated door etc. I would not call my Canadian Napoleon 1402 2.2 cubic foot firebox with 1/4 inch top plate steel, 400 cubic foot a minute dual blowers a cheap stove. I would not call an Englander a cheap stove either, which is sold online often.
With that in mind I will say that one could easily buy a nice stove that isn't right for their house because they did not go through a dealer. Dealers often know what these stoves can and can not do. People read the brochures or online descriptions and think the ratings are great, then get the stove to find it doesn't heat their whole house. If someone doesn't have the time to read read read and research for months, it is almost always better to buy from a dealer. They tend to know what the stoves REALLY can do, not what they are claimed to do.
hunterpa64 said:
Holy crap! He ordered 5 top plates on your dime? Oh dude would I be pissed! How the hell was he able to order those using your CC. I would take the ad out in Craigslist RIGHT now! That would be step number ONE and screw trying to contact him anymore. He is on Craigslist and will see it, than come calling you up. I would explain in detail what he did without getting derogatory. The reason you may want to explain is that some people won't know by looking at it, that it is poor craftsmanship.
Well here's what I started with.
(broken link removed to http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/sks/1639791373.html)
No pics, just figured maybe some unsuspecting customer that got hooked might bump into it. Be nice to have a few more references for the AG when I file.
(broken link removed to http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/sks/1639791373.html)
No pics, just figured maybe some unsuspecting customer that got hooked might bump into it. Be nice to have a few more references for the AG when I file.
hunterpa64 said:
If you paid 1361 for the stove, you saved about 500-700 dollars from buying it anywhere else. I researched and called many places before finding it for very cheap at dynamitebuys online. Every retailer I checked sold the stove for 1600 and charged for the door and panels separately. Count your blessing there I guess.
Yeah he probably pocketed more than 10 feet of insulation on that job, but that's ok, it's cheap stuff to buy. You can get more from a local dealer for cheap if you want to stuff some more down there. If it is packed tight at the top though, you should be fine. Not saying to not be pissed about that deal, but don't lose any sleep over it.
I find it very hard to believe it was left over from another job. He would have had to had done another 15 foot chimney and ordered 30 feet on it. I would say most are more than 15 feet, at least where I live. Thats a short chimney and if memory serves correct, it's just barely long enough for most wood stoves. I might be wrong with that. How is the draft on it btw? I would worry that he just found some type of pipe to use that isn't even supposed to be for a chimney at all. Magnet test it. Does a magnet stick?
I wouldn't worry about it being loose as you run the brush down it. That is normal. It's a 6 inch pipe in a 13 by 13 lined chimney. There's going to be play if it isn't pack tight with insulation all the way down. It's fine. I had to do a 5.5 inch pipe for mine and ovalize it myself to get it down. The mortar inbetween the terra cotta sections stuck out so much that it took a bit of a beating getting it down the chimney. Those SS liners can take a beating. If it is SS, it should last for a looooong time. Maybe in 20-30 years when you want to replace the Napoleon, you may think about replacing it. My everguard liner has a lifetime warranty that is transferable.
If there is ever a problem with the liner, you will know it. First symptom would probably be draft issues. If it got a crack etc, with the top insulated the way it is, you would have smoke that fills up the chimney and comes back into the house. In other words, you would find out pretty quick. Running a wood stove, you should have a licensed chimney sweep inspect and clean your pipe every few years anyway. I plan on saving money every year by cleaning my liner myself, but it is worth a hundred bucks or so every say 3 years to have a pro take a look just in case.
hunterpa64 said:
The bad thing about that is this time of year is not a busy time for these guys. I would post the ad outright with all the info and mention at the end of the ad that you will be posting the warning again in Oct next year. That will have your phone ringing off the hook. Oct through mid Feb is the bread and butter months for stove sales installs etc.
No worries there. I'll be posting pretty regular. Just might ride around with a nice sign on my vehicle too. I just double checked the invoice, the stove alone was 1161.22 and his had written receipt says $1925? No wonder he didn't want me to see it?
As far as the liner goes Dura Flex 316ti is pretty much bottom of the barrel. That said it is what I use in both of my chimneys and don't plan on burning to death lately. It is just a light 316ti liner like a lot of them on the market and just isn't as flexible as a some others. I have never heard of Copperfield selling anything other than HomeSaver liners but maybe they do.
Yes all .005 liners look like dryer duct pipe. And you can cut'em with a pocket knife. And at last call a pro on this site has been selling and installing them for twelve years and not one of them has crapped out yet.
And a magnet will not stick to it. Rest. The installer sounds like an idiot but the pipe should be fine.
And Franks is just going to have to get over the fact that some people install their own stuff and actually live. :lol: The local stove shop that has been in business for 47 years won't recommend an installer because they say that every one in this area is an idiot. I love that family and buy a lot of stuff from them.
Yes all .005 liners look like dryer duct pipe. And you can cut'em with a pocket knife. And at last call a pro on this site has been selling and installing them for twelve years and not one of them has crapped out yet.
And a magnet will not stick to it. Rest. The installer sounds like an idiot but the pipe should be fine.
And Franks is just going to have to get over the fact that some people install their own stuff and actually live. :lol: The local stove shop that has been in business for 47 years won't recommend an installer because they say that every one in this area is an idiot. I love that family and buy a lot of stuff from them.
J-Man said:
I agree with the first two statements wholeheartedly--but not with the last.
I myself have a good amount of experience as a Contractor/Carpenter, and while I don't do it full time anymore, I still do 10 or so jobs a year. While 80% of my work comes from word of mouth, I still do advertise on CL from time to time. Having been in the biz, I can tell you that the KEY to getting someone good is to actually take the time and check references. And don't just take the 3 references they give you (anyone can find 3 people to say good things about them......) ask them for references from their last 3 jobs--and then actually call them! Due diligence will go a long way---if they're hacks they've got other mad customers out there.........
NP
hunterpa64 said:
I can think of a couple reasons off the top of my head:
1. He is not paying business taxes or reporting his work etc.
2. If you were to have any problems,( hopefully not ), there is no proof that he actually installed the improper products. And if you paid him cash (which I would bet he requested), no proof that he was actually at your home.
I have plenty of proof he was here. A signed hand written receipt, neighbors witnessed him butchering my setup and a ton of emails back and forth which clearly verify he did the work.
Credit card for the material from Copperfield, through his account. Cash for the install and liner.
So the liner is bottom end huh? He said he was gonna hook me up with a top of the line setup. Nice. I still think I deserve to know whats in my chimney and am entitled to the documents to support any potential warranty or claims. I'm pretty confident any local magistrate would agree. It appears his lack of communication means it'll be a hassle getting satisfaction, but not impossible. Like I said, if it had been a single issue maybe it would seem petty, but wit the combination of all issues I think it's a warranted concern.
Credit card for the material from Copperfield, through his account. Cash for the install and liner.
So the liner is bottom end huh? He said he was gonna hook me up with a top of the line setup. Nice. I still think I deserve to know whats in my chimney and am entitled to the documents to support any potential warranty or claims. I'm pretty confident any local magistrate would agree. It appears his lack of communication means it'll be a hassle getting satisfaction, but not impossible. Like I said, if it had been a single issue maybe it would seem petty, but wit the combination of all issues I think it's a warranted concern.
Nonprophet said:
I'll give you that, which is why I said it's LIKELY a good contractor doesn't need to advertise on CL. No doubt there's some good people who hawk their services there, but I think if you look at the 10 most recent posts for contractor services in your area, it will be clear that at least 8 of them are not real pros. Most of them have ads that say something like "need a roof? 10 years experience. Guaranteed" No mention of who they are, where they are, business name, phone number, insurance, no website, etc. If you call one of these clowns, its your fault if you get burned. Maybe you won't, but I'd say the likelihood is high. The other 20% might have a more thoughtful ad, that portrays some skill level, or at least some basic ability to write in complete sentences, or understanding of marketing. I have pursued a couple of these with poor results, even one with a very robust reference list. I guess my point is if you can't afford to play games, its not worth your time trying to find the needle in the CL haystack.
tiber said:
post his name and his business name.
if he gets mad, maybe he should have done a better job
J-Man said:
I've found the AG is a GREAT way to shake up these animals and get them to make the wrongs right, in more than a few cases.
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