Backup for P68... My head hurts

[Rockbase]

My Harman Accentra draws no where near that much current. The 384W is probably for when the igniter is on/heating. During normal running the power consumption on mine is about 75-100W. You should put a watt wizard on your stove to get the exact number.

I would just use the generator you have and install a true sine wave UPS (APC Smart-UPS 750 or equivalent) between the stove and your generator. That will insure you have clean power and protect the stove from a brown out and/or dirty power from the generator.

That is a short term fix, good though. It would buy me a few hours of backup. It only provides true sinewave when on battery, so running the generator through it wont allow the generator to run the stove. But it does buy time.

 

[Rockbase]

This is my opinion and comment barring any liability if your board becomes a toaster.

Run your Harman on your backup, auxillary genny so long as the rest of your house is wired to it via a vacuum breaker transfer switch and your backup genny is a quality unit like a Generac. Should be no issue. We run our stove on our genny (Generac 17 KW propain fired standby) and have for at least 15 years no issue, computers, TV's, central furnace (that happens to be an ultra high efficiency Bryant electronic unit.

Having said that, I wouldn't run any pellet stove, or my computer, or my furnace or my CPAP machine on a cheap genny like a Harbor Fright unit, with questionable modified sine wave (or dirtier) wave form, thats asking for troubles. DIRECTLY, DEDICATED HOOK UP.

If I was to run any sensitive electronic appratus DIRECTLY, it would be with a pure sine wave genny.... and I have one of those, it's a Yamaha, 7 pole 2800 watt genny for the RV and it cost almost 2 grand itself.

\IMO, your Harman will motor along just fine on your WHOLE HOUSE STANDBY GENNY.

Lets all hope you don't have standby power on your outhouse unless you are inordinately well to do.

Just to be sure everyone understand, The XG800e is not a true sinewave generator. I would have to purchase at $2,500.00 Plus tax, the XP-8000E version.

 

[Rockbase]

Case1: I'll guess that the 3.2amps is for when the igniter is on, and that the normal run wattage is in the 100watt range.
Case 2: I don't think that's a good option at all.

Case 3: I've seen a portable gas Ramsond Sinemate 1500 at Home Depot for $400. It's pure sine, and you want to size it for max efficiency so that it runs as long as possible with few fillups. So, you don't need a 2000 watt portable, you can probably get by with 1000 peak watts, but 1500 to be safe.

Case 4: Many pellet stove run just fine on a stepped sine wave, mine does, but I thought Harmans do an auto shutdown if it senses a stepped wave. You could try a pure sine UPS to run off your existing generator. I have a large 1500VA pure sine CyberPower UPS that lasts 65 minutes on a ~100 watt draw. The key question is whether or not it will charge off the stepped wave from your generator. If it does, then you're all set and a pure sine UPS like mine only cost me about $165, I think. Smaller models can cost as little as $118 at Newegg.

Yeah, chicken or the egg. If the generator charged the Pure sinewave UPS, then the UPS would never supply power to the stive as it would think power is on. Did I say that ???

 

[Rockbase]

I was in the same boat last year.i shopped around online and found a few companies sell a honda eu2000i inverter generator new for $899 shipped to my door.rated best inverstor generator by about everyone.then i went to ebay and for $69 i purchased a xtended run fuel tank setup for it.this adds aditional 2.5 gallons and now i can run my honda for 24-36hrs without having to fill up.i figure if i lose power i will want the xtra watts to run other things.if you want the less expensive way out get the generac 800 watt inverter generator for $299 and you can run your stove and a few lights

Actually that sounds like the best idea so far, Run the stove on the cheap gererac, and the house runs on the XG8000e. Just sorry I need to have 2 generators.

 

[Rockbase]

I use a portable generator and when the power goes out I put the house on the oil burner. The generator runs all our major appliances and the tenants as well. Give us light, heat, hot water. What more do you need in a power outage ? Everyone has struck the fear into me as well regarding the Harman, but I'm pretty sure the new Harmans just shut down if the power isn't clean. Besides that I never heard of anyone reporting a fried board on this site. Usually dirty power sends electronics whacko , motors drag etc. but not so sure anything actually fries. More than likely it just won't run . Still I sense this little fear of others here and so instead I Just don't run it on the gen.

People talk like the pellet stove is their only source of heat on here sometimes. I don't know about other places but an average outage here is less than one day. A bigger one maybe 3 days. Very Very rarely it could be a week. Ok so take the worst, one week out of a heating season on oil is not worth fretting over, is not worth buying a second generator for, is not worth a head ache.

Ok, I should have said, My house has central ELETRIC heat, costs me about $300.00 plus a month in the winter, and that's heating upstairs with downstairs being 10f cooler. However, for $200.00 in pellets, I keep up and downstairs at 72f. So the pellet stove was a backup for the electric heat, and now used instead of the electric heat as its cheaper and warmer. However, no generator I can find will handle my electric heat for 3,650 sq foot house, within $ reason.

 

[bogieb]

Ok, I should have said, My house has central ELETRIC heat, costs me about $300.00 plus a month in the winter, and that's heating upstairs with downstairs being 10f cooler. However, for $200.00 in pellets, I keep up and downstairs at 72f. So the pellet stove was a backup for the electric heat, and now used instead of the electric heat as its cheaper and warmer. However, no generator I can find will handle my electric heat for 3,650 sq foot house, within $ reason.

$300/month? Dang, I wish I could heat for that in the dead of winter with pellets, much less propane (~1k/month), and I have a small house (950 sq/ft that can be heated w/propane - 1500 sq/ft heated with pellets)). Oh, and if I had electric, it would cost about the same as propane (have some of the highest electric rates in the country).

Another thing for you to think about, with all that space, is put in a wood burner or coal stove for heating during outages. I would have loved to do that, but have no place to put a chimney, and even less clearance space for either of those.

 

[jdinny]

We run our whole house on an 8700 w portable when the power goes down, including our P43, 3 big screens, Bose system, 2 desktops, Xbox, and on and on. No problems at all. Gonna convert it to LP this summer, and plumb it into the house.

 

[moey]

I have electric heat ( geothermal ) even a standby system would struggle to handle the instantaneous startup draw it takes ~ 100AMPS.

I bought this: ( 2000w champion inverter )

(broken link removed to http://www.supergenproducts.com/catalog/p-100024/refurbished-16002000w-inverter-73531)

I have had to use it several times in the winter during a power loss. I have a 120v transfer switch that I hook it up to which powers 5 circuits in the house. Lights, refrigerator and pellet stove. I also have a 3500w gas guzzler that I use to power my well pump. Not a perfect system but I spent only about $800 for the whole setup two generators and transfer switch.

Im not a believer in the true sine wave hog wash. Keep gas in it and dont let it run out and you should be fine.

You must have cheap electric $300 a month for electric heat unless your super insulated or keeping the house at 45F. I spend close to $300 a month with our geothermal system of course we pay .15 kw/hr and have ~1500HDD those months.

 

[Rockbase]

I got real numbers, and I dont want anyone else to have to go through this (thats why we share information right?) and also, if any of the inverter people want to correct a formula or something, they can. SO here goes.

I put a amp meter on the stove, when starting, everything except the distribution blower is running, so we have heating element(s) that are enabled to start the burn.
This is 3.6amps at 110vac (at 120vac its a little higher) or 396 watts. This is just FYI as you would only start the stove once.
Once started, the heaters go off and the distribution blower comes on 1.9 amps 209 watts.
In addition, the auger will cycle (And little trap door open) which bumps the wattage up to 2.5 amps 275 watts. Now to be fair, we need to figure out how much time is spent atthe higher amps/wattage when auger is running vs at the lower wattage when auger is still. The problem is that this is variable based upon how cold it is and how far stove is from room temp or stove temp setpoint. To be conservitive, i chose 6 seconds, so 10% of a minute is at the higher amps, 90% at the lower amps.
that is (.1*275)+(.9*209) = 215 watts.

Now, amps/hr = watts / (volts * efficiency) or 215watts / (12vdc * 87% inverter efficiency) 0r 215/(12*.87) which is apx 21amps per hour.
To run 8 hrs, would mean that beside the inverter you need a battry that is (8*21) 168 amp hours.
And the bad news is, that deep cycle batterys are made to discharge over 20 hours, so it will loose much more efficiency. Then also, figure that they tell you that you should slow charge these battery's, So expect you will need 2 to 3 of these $100.00 + batterys to get you through a 24 hour period. I contacted surefire and I may or may not had the correct person on the phone, but they gave me this formula from there website "Each 100 watts from inverter requires aproximatly 10 dc amps from battery" this equals 21.5 amps hr/ vs my 21 amps per hour rounded.
Hence, using there math, the inverter Surefire, or otherwise, wont run a P68 stove for 8 hours on a 90amp/hr battery.

Cost $540.00 + tax for inverter.
300.00 + tax batterys
25.00 Misc cables ect.
_______________
$900.00 and you constantly have to recharge down batteries on other generator.

Please let me know where I went wrong. I do not see the logic in this.
My answer, with your help, is on next post.

 

[Rockbase]

So now that we know an inverter is out of the question, Kerosine is out as it would be left downstairs unattended, otherwise it would be a good idea (thanks)
So im at a small pure sinewave inverter generaor. I had 4 models I found that would work.
1) Gernerac 800, Pro = cost (< 400.00) and light weight CONS: Bad reviews, 5 hrs runtime, no 30 amp socket
2) Powerhouse 2000 Pro = Cost, local vendor, 30amp socket run 7.5 hrs Cons: Bad reviews, weight
3) Honda 900 Pro = Honda,2 yr warr, reliable, good reviews Cons: Heavy, Cost, no 30 apm socet
4) Yamaha 1000 Pro = Yamaha, 4Yr warr, $100.00 rebate, Good reviews Cons: cost, no 30amp socket

Ok, so for 699.00 (because cabellas gives you 100.00 gift card), and 4 year warranty (Yamaha is 3 yrs plus bonus year this offer) I am getting the Yamaha generator as
a backup for my pellet stove. I already have backup house power. This is lite weight (28 lbs), It will run 12 hours at 250 watts load (We are below this) and will sit outside with a extension cord
going to a MALE 110vac outlet which in turn connects to a female 110vac (grey) outlet on inside of same wall, which pellet stove (And ups for shutdown) will be plugged into.

Thanks for all your help. I hope that this saves someone else some trouble and research time if/when looking for backup power for their pellet stove.

Cheers, -Rockbase-

 

[Rockbase]

So now that we know an inverter is out of the question, Kerosine is out as it would be left downstairs unattended, otherwise it would be a good idea (thanks)
So im at a small pure sinewave inverter generaor. I had 4 models I found that would work.
1) Gernerac 800, Pro = cost (< 400.00) and light weight CONS: Bad reviews, 5 hrs runtime, no 30 amp socket
2) Powerhouse 2000 Pro = Cost, local vendor, 30amp socket run 7.5 hrs Cons: Bad reviews, weight
3) Honda 900 Pro = Honda,2 yr warr, reliable, good reviews Cons: Heavy, Cost, no 30 apm socet
4) Yamaha 1000 Pro = Yamaha, 4Yr warr, $100.00 rebate, Good reviews Cons: cost, no 30amp socket

Ok, so for 699.00 (because cabellas gives you 100.00 gift card), and 4 year warranty (Yamaha is 3 yrs plus bonus year this offer) I am getting the Yamaha generator as
a backup for my pellet stove. I already have backup house power. This is lite weight (28 lbs), It will run 12 hours at 250 watts load (We are below this) and will sit outside with a extension cord
going to a MALE 110vac outlet which in turn connects to a female 110vac (grey) outlet on inside of same wall, which pellet stove (And ups for shutdown) will be plugged into.

Thanks for all your help. I hope that this saves someone else some trouble and research time if/when looking for backup power for their pellet stove.

Cheers, -Rockbase-

Oh Yeah, that 12 hours run, is on 6/10th's of 1 gallon of gas. Im impressed.

 

[railfanron]

Bear in mind that deep cycle batteries should never be drawn down below 40% as they loose some of there life when this is done. Boy my less than $3000.00 Generac completely automatic powerplant looks like a better deal more and more.
Ron
Ron

 

[Rockbase]

Bear in mind that deep cycle batteries should never be drawn down below 40% as they loose some of there life when this is done. Boy my less than $3000.00 Generac completely automatic powerplant looks like a better deal more and more.
Ron
Ron

You are absolutely correct, although some say 20%, but in either case I don't want someone to have to learn what I did the hard way.
If I knew what I knew now, and could turn the clock back, I would have purchased the XP8000E generac for the $2,800.00 and had non of these issues.
-Rockbase-

 

[moey]

You are absolutely correct, although some say 20%, but in either case I don't want someone to have to learn what I did the hard way.
If I knew what I knew now, and could turn the clock back, I would have purchased the XP8000E generac for the $2,800.00 and had non of these issues.
-Rockbase-

But you would be $2800 poorer.. BTW you usually can find them for between $2000-$2500. If you want to true sine wave the only way to get one is with batteries or an inverter. Everything else is just a best attempt and advertising hocus pocus.

Folks on the RV forums swear by the Champion inverters and their customer support blows away everyone else.

 

[Rockbase]

But you would be $2800 poorer.. BTW you usually can find them for between $2000-$2500. If you want to true sine wave the only way to get one is with batteries or an inverter. Everything else is just a best attempt and advertising hocus pocus.

Folks on the RV forums swear by the Champion inverters and their customer support blows away everyone else.

I started by saying i owned a xg8000e generator that runs the house but not the pellet stove, the xp-8000E which is $1000.00 more then the XG, is made to run even the pellet stove, or so they say.

 

[railfanron]

My Generac Whole house runs everything which includes the P43. It doesn't have any fancy surge protector (other than the whole house one in the breaker panel). We had a 5 hour failure in February when the temp was in the single digits and it ran fine and it was running when the power went down. So for the 45 seconds until the genny came online it had no power. When the genny came online the stove continued along as if nothing had happened. When the power is restored the switch is so fast the TV doesn't even flicker. I resisted to the point that my wife demanded it and after having it for 6 years I'm very glad we have it. The cost was 2250 6 years ago complete including all materials and the battery.
Ron

 

[TJS]

Made it through the season without a power outage; I read this post/thread with interest because I still have to come up with a plan, but, for a mathematically challenged person like myself--all these numbers are giving me a headache!

 

[maple1]

Ok, I should have said, My house has central ELETRIC heat, costs me about $300.00 plus a month in the winter, and that's heating upstairs with downstairs being 10f cooler. However, for $200.00 in pellets, I keep up and downstairs at 72f. So the pellet stove was a backup for the electric heat, and now used instead of the electric heat as its cheaper and warmer. However, no generator I can find will handle my electric heat for 3,650 sq foot house, within $ reason.

How often does your power go out & for how long?

How much does your electricity cost, all-in, per kwh?

$300/mo is 3000 watts per hour, roughly, at $0.15/kwh (ours is 0.18). You have an 8000 watt generator in place now. When it is running, it should be putting out more than enough juice to keep your house warm enough using the existing electric heat. I would bet that when it is running, you are only using less than 1/4 of it's output 90% of the time (Have you ever measured your whole house power consumption? What are your monthly bills? Our house uses less than 1000 watts, 90% of the time). I wouldn't spend any more money on anything else - except maybe a UPS as suggested above to plug the pellet stove into to give you a bit more time for it to run when the power goes out.

 

[Rockbase]

Final Update, The Yamaha 1000 watt generator runs the pellet stove for 24 hours, on a gallon of gas. We got the generator from Cabelas on sale, with a extra year (4 years) warranty, with a $100.00 cabelas card (So another $100.00 off). The ef1000is is extremely light and small. If it were to run out of gas, the battery backup shuts down the stove. All of this is much less cost and headache then the battery backup options (for long time run). Hope this helps reduce headaches for the next guy



The central heater wattage is 20,000 watts. My 8,000 watt generator wont run that.

 

[Rockbase]

My Generac Whole house runs everything which includes the P43. It doesn't have any fancy surge protector (other than the whole house one in the breaker panel). We had a 5 hour failure in February when the temp was in the single digits and it ran fine and it was running when the power went down. So for the 45 seconds until the genny came online it had no power. When the genny came online the stove continued along as if nothing had happened. When the power is restored the switch is so fast the TV doesn't even flicker. I resisted to the point that my wife demanded it and after having it for 6 years I'm very glad we have it. The cost was 2250 6 years ago complete including all materials and the battery.
Ron

Yes, if I could turn the clock back, my original purchase would have been a 8,000 watt generator, pure sine wave type, or the Honda 6500 watt invertor generator.
Cheers.

 

[bogieb]

Thanks for coming back and sharing your findings to help out others.

 

[maple1]

The central heater wattage is 20,000 watts. My 8,000 watt generator wont run that.

What kind of electric heater do you have? It's one single unit? I was thinking it was electric baseboards - and you could run a select few on the genny when the power is out.

A 20,000 watt heater wouldn't have to run long though to burn through $300 of electricity in a month. Don't think we've heard your rates yet, but here with our rates it would be less than 3 hours a day. So if you spread those 3 heating hours over a whole day, it would be the same as running 2500 watts of heater all day. Which a 8000 watt genny could handle just fine, even up to double that. Which is what I was getting at.

But glad you found a solution that works & you're happy with - those small Yamaha & Honda gennies are nice units.

 

[Rockbase]

The central heater wattage is 20,000 watts. My 8,000 watt generator wont run that.

What kind of electric heater do you have? It's one single unit? I was thinking it was electric baseboards - and you could run a select few on the genny when the power is out.

A 20,000 watt heater wouldn't have to run long though to burn through $300 of electricity in a month. Don't think we've heard your rates yet, but here with our rates it would be less than 3 hours a day. So if you spread those 3 heating hours over a whole day, it would be the same as running 2500 watts of heater all day. Which a 8000 watt genny could handle just fine, even up to double that. Which is what I was getting at.

But glad you found a solution that works & you're happy with - those small Yamaha & Honda gennies are nice units.

It Is a large single unit, not baseboard, that heats the air (ask about the most expensive heat you can get) and distributes the heated air through each rom, with returns, like a central air conditioner does. Im not sure what our rates are here, but my wife tells me, if we don't run the pellet stove, we can go over $400.00 on the cold months, set at 69f. With the pellet stove we will run a ton and some small amount (Ton of the good stuff = $220.00) however, both the upstairs and downstairs will be at 73f and floors are nice and warm, vs the electric heat at higher cost and you never "Feel" warm.
Cheers.

 

[Rockbase]

Just an Update..... (The weather will turn cold soon, and somebody might need this information)
I tested the system, when main power goes down, the APV backup 750 UPS shuts the stove down. If no ones home, or we are sleeping, this is what we want to happen. Because the unit is near a outside wall, I had a outlet mounted outside (Male connector) which runs through the wall to a inside
outlet (Std 110 vac). I pickup my lightweight Yamaha ev1000s inverter, place outside and connect to this outlet. This quiet unit powers my pellet stove, house PC, cell phone extender and internet (DSL) wireless for 24 hours on 1 gallon of gas.
because I leave the pellet stove plugged into the UPS, and just move the UPS plug to the inverter outlet, Im still protected if power goes out. No fumes, auto shutdown for safety.
The house will run separately on my large generator. This takes care of keeping the house warm, food cold, and wife happy when any extended power outage occurs. Note that now both the wife and I work from home and need constant internet access (during work hours) as our employer's can see when we are, or are not working. Anyway, Hoping this helps the next guy with a cheap reliable way to keep the pellet stove running, safely during a power outage.
Cheers !

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Back in 08 we had 4 feet of snow here at the ranch and the power was out for 4 days.

We ran our Quad 1000 on a little Coleman 1700 plus for the 4 days.

The room air fan whined a bit but the stove did fine, and the electronics seem no worse for the wear.