Are we fooling ourselves about the whole "green " thing?

[Seasoned Oak]

midwestcoast

As far as the developing world i do not pretend to have a solution to their population problem i was being sarcastic to Dune for criticizing me just for bringing up the subject.
Your suggestion about family planning and education is probably all we or anyone can can do for developing countries to turn it around.
My source is the US census report and Wikipedia,who states without a doubt more than 100% of the US population growth comes from immigration cuz without it our population would actually be declining.
My reason for bringing up the subject is that it has such a big impact on energy consumption and the whole green thing. Not to point fingers or suggest we should tell people how many kids to have. Without at least discussing it we probably are just fooling ourselves if we think we can solve our energy and resource problems with a little conservation here and there.

 

[Dune]

The solution is clear and obvious. We must implement every possible solution, ASAP

Your making my point as far as a solution,there is no clear and obvious solution if the population keep increasing,no amount of "conserving" on your part will make up for the tsunami of new earthlings on the assembly lines.

No, I am not making your point.

I catagoricaly disagree with you. There is a clear and obvious solution. When we have finaly implemented every means needed, fossil fuel will be replaced.

Population growth will not derail nor stop the process, only make it more urgent.

 

[kenny chaos]

Im into the green thing,but not to "save the planet". mostly cuz its usually cost less than the old wasteful methods,and cuz im a fiercely independent sort,a self reliant type.
Just when we think were making a huge impact on energy and resource consumption those sobering numbers pop up on the news.
According to the news we are adding 80 million new faces to the planet each and every year. About 5 million to the US alone(depending on the source)mostly from immigration legal and otherwise.
You could repopulate the entire US in just 4 years. 80 million people require a tremendous amount of energy(depending on where they are born and live).They need housing ,food, clean water,and the land to produce all that is becoming scarce. Our efforts to conserve are like a drop of water fighting a tsunami of new consumers every year.
So whats the solution? I don't have the foggiest idea.

That's a very broad and general comment and question but on the over population thing; I don't buy into it.
I've seen the "population explosion" come up on occasion over many years and then replaced with major health concerns, immigration, war, or one of many other history repeating "serious issues of the day." For some reason, all various issues seem to be popping up together at the moment.
A short drive through most countrysides would show we are a land rich planet and a look at any globe shows we have even more land in water.
I've spent mornings picking only the best cukes off the vine for market and then in the afternoon at the packing house, where at least half and sometimes more, go in the reject line. They may be a tad large, a tad small, a tad off color or not evenly colored, and they're not good enough for the big produce buyers. Much more food is left to rot or destroyed than is ever made available.
Besides, we have our own conspiracies for controlling the population with things like McDonald's, tobacco, sugar, war, cancer, aides, etc..
The solution? Don't worry about it. Do the best you can with what you've got and find the attitude of gratitude.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The solution is clear and obvious. We must implement every possible solution, ASAP

Your making my point as far as a solution,there is no clear and obvious solution if the population keep increasing,no amount of "conserving" on your part will make up for the tsunami of new earthlings on the assembly lines.

No, I am not making your point.

I catagoricaly disagree with you. There is a clear and obvious solution. When we have finaly implemented every means needed, fossil fuel will be replaced.

Population growth will not derail nor stop the process, only make it more urgent.

Fossil fuel will be replaced? Good luck with that theory anytime soon. Fresh water will also have to be replaced.as well as farmland and fisheries, This will be a very crowded planet before any of these things are replaced if ever IMHO.

 

[Dune]

Exactly. We disagree. I get it. Do you?

 

[midwestcoast]

midwestcoast

As far as the developing world i do not pretend to have a solution to their population problem i was being sarcastic to Dune for criticizing me just for bringing up the subject.
Your suggestion about family planning and education is probably all we or anyone can can do for developing countries to turn it around.
My source is the US census report and Wikipedia,who states without a doubt more than 100% of the US population growth comes from immigration cuz without it our population would actually be declining.
My reason for bringing up the subject is that it has such a big impact on energy consumption and the whole green thing. Not to point fingers or suggest we should tell people how many kids to have. Without at least discussing it we probably are just fooling ourselves if we think we can solve our energy and resource problems with a little conservation here and there.

trump, my apologies. I miss-construed your sarcasm for dismissivness of people in developing countries & their life choices.
I looked further into U.S. birth rates & found tha the #'s I've seen and that are most reported in the news are the "crude birth rates" & not as good an indicator of future population growth/decline as the total fertility rate is. The crude birth rate fluctuate greatly when demographic "bulges" like the baby boom... move in and out of childbearing age. According to the CIA world factbook the current U.S total fertility rate is 2.06 where a rate of 2.0 indicates 0 growth. (broken link removed to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html) digging down further reveals that the 2.0 replacement rate is also more of an extrapolation rather than an absolute or direct calculation, and it's different for every country every year... based on mortality rates. So it's safe to say the U.S. rate is very close, one side or the other of replacement rate. That means the trend is toward an end of growth, but not that we've stopped growing through births yet. Births-deaths each year measures that,
I am in total agreement that it is a topic worth well more discussion than it gets. I'd just re-iterate though that this is one sustainability problem which is steadily being solved. There's plenty of good news, from below replacement fertility in the E.U, Japan & most other developed countries, to rapidly falling rates in developing nations.
That doesn't mean we can pat ourselves on the back for stabilizing population. It hasn't happened yet and I believe it makes a very big difference whether we stabilize at 8, 9 or 10 billion, and then whether we hold steady or decline.
No-matter when & where we stabilize population though, it won't matter one bit if we don't curb our ballooning Consumption Growth Rate. We really have not even bagun down the road to tackling that, so no, I don't think we're fooling ourselves about the whole green thing. That is so long as we understand that "the whole green thing" is actually an urgent attempt to figure out how to survive as a society & prosper as a species.

 

[jharkin]

Despite the rhetoric, lifestyle will not suffer....in fact, I think it will improve.

I wish I were as optimistic Craig. I used to be, used to think we would engineer our way out of the mess but the older I get the less I believe it.

It just seems that the solution to any one problem makes the others worse. Most of whats good for the economy is bad for the environment or resource depletion rates. Whats good for the environment is bad for jobs. And whats good for big business is bad for us all.

Oh and then there is that pesky 13 trillion dollars of debt

 

[btuser]

Here in America we have a great standard of living. The problem for me (and just maybe others as well) was for a long time I was confusing standard of living as being the same thing as quality of life. I was working 80-100 hrs week, neglecting my family and friends, hating was I was doing but all the time measuring my success by paychecks and toys. I didn't have an epiphany, or come to it voluntarily. I was laid off. Thank God I was laid off.

I whole-heartedly believe our standard of living will decline but our quality of life will go up. Hopefully my generation doesn't waste its time and treasure on plastic surgery, viagra, and therapists. Maybe some older, fudlling men+ women, instead of trying to act 30 and making fools out of themselves, will be sitting in a bar drinking beer instead of martinis and will look around the table at honest faces. Maybe then they will start talking about how bad they're getting screwed and go home and teach a younger generation to fight again. Kinda like what happened the first time this country had a revolution.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

midwestcoast
One thing is for sure we do use a larger share of the worlds resources than other countries,even if they have more people than we do,so to be fair,curbing our own consumption may have a greater impact than developing countries curbing their population.
Im shooting for 100% elimination of gasoline as personal transportation fuel and 100% waste wood and solar heatiing. Im at 50% now. The postesr on this website seem to be on the right path,the rest of the country may need higher energy prices to get on the bandwagon.

 

[Milton Findley]

Here in America we have a great standard of living. The problem for me (and just maybe others as well) was for a long time I was confusing standard of living as being the same thing as quality of life. I was working 80-100 hrs week, neglecting my family and friends, hating was I was doing but all the time measuring my success by paychecks and toys. I didn't have an epiphany, or come to it voluntarily. I was laid off. Thank God I was laid off.

I whole-heartedly believe our standard of living will decline but our quality of life will go up. Hopefully my generation doesn't waste its time and treasure on plastic surgery, viagra, and therapists. Maybe some older, fudlling men+ women, instead of trying to act 30 and making fools out of themselves, will be sitting in a bar drinking beer instead of martinis and will look around the table at honest faces. Maybe then they will start talking about how bad they're getting screwed and go home and teach a younger generation to fight again. Kinda like what happened the first time this country had a revolution.

Too bad you didn't spend some time with a therapist, you might have gained a little wisdom without being hit over the head.

I am certain that whatever I do will make little difference in the overall picture, but it makes me feel better about how I am treating the environment. All of us take, I just intend to take less and leave more behind me.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Here in America we have a great standard of living. The problem for me (and just maybe others as well) was for a long time I was confusing standard of living as being the same thing as quality of life. I was working 80-100 hrs week, neglecting my family and friends, hating was I was doing but all the time measuring my success by paychecks and toys. I didn't have an epiphany, or come to it voluntarily. I was laid off. Thank God I was laid off.

I whole-heartedly believe our standard of living will decline but our quality of life will go up. Hopefully my generation doesn't waste its time and treasure on plastic surgery, viagra, and therapists. Maybe some older, fudlling men+ women, instead of trying to act 30 and making fools out of themselves, will be sitting in a bar drinking beer instead of martinis and will look around the table at honest faces. Maybe then they will start talking about how bad they're getting screwed and go home and teach a younger generation to fight again. Kinda like what happened the first time this country had a revolution.

I hear ya BTU, quality of life does not necessarily coincide with quantity of toys, instead of wanting the best of everything,make the best of everything you have now,although our toys do change over time ,they get more practical.At 54 im down to 4-5 hour workdays now instead of 8-12 with no family time. My quality of life is improving as my workday is shrinking. IF you make a list of the 5 most important things in your life and the list of the 5 things that occupy the most of your time,too often they dont match up.

 

[btuser]

Too bad you didn't spend some time with a therapist, you might have gained a little wisdom without being hit over the head.

I am certain that whatever I do will make little difference in the overall picture, but it makes me feel better about how I am treating the environment. All of us take, I just intend to take less and leave more behind me.

Choppng wood is my therapy. Have you got a hybrid too?

 

[kenny chaos]

I bet my dad can take your dad.

 

[btuser]

This conversation is stupid. Superman is a real guy. Mighty Mouse is just a cartoon.

It would be a good fight though!

 

[Dune]

The thing about therapy is, if almost anybody thinks you need it, and you think you don't, you probably do.

 

[btuser]

Therapy is great. Everybody needs a hobby, but asking a therapist if you need therapy is kinda like asking an insurance salesman if you have enough insurance. A friend of mine used to believe his fingers would get itchy whenever he was about to get lucky. His girlfriend used to hunt ghosts. When he went to prison for stealing (gambling debts) she had a seance so his soul could come back. Pretty neat!

The green thing is great, really great. Every day let's all make a point to over-pay for vegetables and buy a rainforest CD. Buy something green, just keep buying and everything will be all right.

 

[allhandsworking]

Just watch Jerry Springer show! baby's having baby's. Savages having savages! You Wonder why the 6 pm news is murder,mayhem and marijuana! I feel bad for people. Life is a constant struggle and I had two caring nurturing parents!

"The meek will inherit the earth"

 

[btuser]

Meek=Weak.

"They will understand, at long last, that freedom and bread enough for all are inconceivable together, for never, never will they be able to share between them." Fyodor Dostoyevsky

 

[Milton Findley]

Too bad you didn't spend some time with a therapist, you might have gained a little wisdom without being hit over the head.

I am certain that whatever I do will make little difference in the overall picture, but it makes me feel better about how I am treating the environment. All of us take, I just intend to take less and leave more behind me.

Choppng wood is my therapy. Have you got a hybrid too?

Leaping to conclusions is good exercise too. Six liter Superduty.

 

[btuser]

Leaping to conclusions is good exercise too. Six liter Superduty.

I bet its to tow a big boat or a camper. Just think of the horrible damage you're doing to the enviroment! I use a tent, and a bicyle, and have made it to 19 states. The cost of cycling is even with the cost of traveling by car when you consider food, because 60 miles on a bike is a good day but 60 miles in a car is only an hour and maybe $10 fuel. With this in mind I feel my very existence is as damaging as everyone else. You seem to feel good about yourself because you can reason you're not quite as bad as someone else, but I have guilt. Can you help me?

To get back to the original idea of the post. I'd say the simple act of selfishly saving money is the best way to help the enviroment. The hard part is conservation is the loss of jobs. There's about 25 years labor in every barrel of oil.

 

[Dune]

How much horsepower does that Banks system add to your 6.6 anyhow?

 

[Dune]

Leaping to conclusions is good exercise too. Six liter Superduty.

I bet its to tow a big boat or a camper. Just think of the horrible damage you're doing to the enviroment! I use a tent, and a bicyle, and have made it to 19 states. The cost of cycling is even with the cost of traveling by car when you consider food, because 60 miles on a bike is a good day but 60 miles in a car is only an hour and maybe $10 fuel. With this in mind I feel my very existence is as damaging as everyone else. You seem to feel good about yourself because you can reason you're not quite as bad as someone else, but I have guilt. Can you help me?

To get back to the original idea of the post. I'd say the simple act of selfishly saving money is the best way to help the enviroment. The hard part is conservation is the loss of jobs. There's about 25 years labor in every barrel of oil.

Getting hard to seperate the serious from the sarcastic at this point.

Are you trying to say that conserving oil by utilizing green technology will cause us to lose jobs?

 

[btuser]

Depending on how you dial it I can get 150+hp. Its kinda scary. I've heard 600hp is possible, plus with the Allison transmission that's basically a rock crusher there's enough torque to light 'em up when you pass someone on the highway. Its a 2002 and came out 1 yr before the emissions changed and they added the cat converter, so with the 4" exhaust there's no constriction. I don't even mess with it anymore, and just leave it on factory. The idea was to save fuel but not much luck with that when you can't lay off the pedal.

 

[Dune]

Yeah, it's scary alright, but your not compensating or anthing so stick with the wood chopping, you"ll be O.K.

 

[btuser]

Getting hard to separate the serious from the sarcastic at this point.

Are you trying to say that conserving oil by utilizing green technology will cause us to lose jobs?

I'm saying the simple act of conservation in an economy that is 70% dependant on consumer activity will cause people to lose jobs. Even if we use less to the point that energy and commodity use becomes flat people will still lose their jobs, as we figure out how to do the same work with less people. That's not a bad thing per se, but when most of the gains in productivity go to 10% of the population, its not like the rest of society has more money to spend on more stuff to put more people to work.

If I had a magical box that hooked up to my house and could give me all the light, heat, and food I would need for free, I would be out of a job too.