Are there any code restrictions that hinder instalation of NG direct vent insert into a prefab firep

[gishysue]

We are overwhelmed by info, yet continue to feel ignorant. In April 2006 we bought our home in Marietta, GA. It is a 1735 sq ft ranch built in 1982. We have a Superior B836 zero clearance fireplace and the original installation instructions for the unit. Inside the metal frame, the opening ht is 20 3/4" and width is 37 3/4" in front narrowing to 24" at the back. The depth is 16" from inside the front metal strip to the back wall. Don't know if we have the 10" Air Kool Chimney System or the 8" air Syphon Chimney System. My husband measured the opening at the top of the firebox to be at least 10". The room it is in is 16' x 16' (256 sq ft); the adjoining room is 16' x 12' ( 192 sq ft). Heat flow would have to go through doorways and around corners for the rest of the house to benefit. We want the ambiance of a fireplace, a supplemental heat source for cold evenings AND a source of heat should we lose power and not have our older model gas furnace be able to run.

We have been to 4 dealers in our area that carry and install NG direct vent inserts. To all dealers we have taken pictures, measurements and the installation instructions for our ZC unit. 3 of the 4 have said "no problem". They are more than willing to come out and look at our fireplace and install one of their units to fit the space available. Co. #1 told us we needed to locate our own chimney sweep and to watch out for heisters. Co. #2 told us they would clean our chimney first, but they are not listed on the csai list of certified sweeps. Co. #3 has their techs trained and certified on the csai list. Company #4, whose techs are all also on the csai list, told us they would not install either a direct vent insert or vent free gas logs into our ZC fireplace because of an NFPA 54 code that requires our fireplace to remain vented. Based on what we showed them they said they would have to pull out our existing box and install a proper firebox.

We know we need to have our fireplace and chimney inspected and cleaned before we do anything. We are inclined to call Co. #4 since they are the only ones that mentioned the code and their off season rate is attractive. But are they just setting us up to sell us a new firebox? Should we pay more and call Company #3?

Is there really a code restriction that would limit our ability to have a NG direct vent insert put in? What other, if any concerns should we have? Of course, the next question will be to find the insert that is of proper size for our space.

Sorry for being so long, but after reading so many items in this forum, I've learned the more info the better you are able to answer. I'll send pictures in another post, since this one is so long. Thank you for your time and reponse.

 

[jtp10181]

Around here we do that all the time. We have the customer call whatever sweep they want. We put in a direct vent insert and use a 3" liner for the exaust and put a new cap on top. The insert needs to be approved to go into a ZC firebox. Many times we cut down the inside of a ZC wood unit to make an insert fit, again only if it is allowed by the insert. Many ZC units are NOT approved for vent free inserts or logs, so that may not be an option. We also do a lot of full tearouts and install a direct vent fireplace in its place.

 

[GVA]

gishysue:
Welcome to the forum
Is there anyway that you can post those same pics here and let all the opinions and arguments fly here?
Maybe co # 4 saw something the other 3 didn't.
Just an Idea....

 

[gishysue]

Here are the pix I promised.
If the customer has their own sweep do the clean and inspect, then do you also inspect to be sure the ZC and chimney are safe before you install?
Thanks again

 

[jtp10181]

Is that an old Heatilator T4800? Maybe to small for that though. Looks like one of the old T series.

I just skimmed NFPA 54 and did not see anything that would prohibit the installing of an insert into a ZC unit.

(broken link removed to http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=54)

Scroll to the bottom and hit preview document.

You should call Co #4 back and ask them which section of NFPA 54 prohibits what you would like to do. I would be interested to read that section.

The only thing I can think of was that thier argument was only against a vent free applicance and not a direct vent. When they said they would need to install a "proper firebox", it sounds like they wanted to install a ventfree box designed to take ventfree gas logs. There are only a few ZC vented wood units I have heard of that can take vent free logs. If you installed a direct vent insert into that unit, it would still be vented. The vent would just have another vent inside of it.

 

[gishysue]

Its a Superior Fireplace Co. Builders 836. Haven't been able to find anything on line about it; just have the Builder Installation Instructions.
I scanned NFPA 54 already and did not find anything either that limited the installation of a direct vent. Only 2 items seemed anywhere relevant:
"10.6.2 Installation. A decorative appliance for installation in a vented fireplace shall be installed only in a vented fireplace having a working chimney flue and constructed of noncombustible material. These appliances shall not be thermostatically controlled."
and "10.7.2(4) Direct vent gas fireplaces shall be installed with the vent air intake terminal in the outdoors and in accordance with the manufacturers instruction."

We understand why we can't do the vent free logs. Plus the Installation Instructions we have for our unit specifically says: "The firebox is insulated but relies upon air drawn in through the openings located in both firebox side shields behind the fire screen. Altering or blocking these air inlets can constitute a potential fire hazard and relieves the manufacturerof any express or implied warranties." It didn't seem to us that the direct vent insert technically blocked the firebox air inlets. From what we understand from our research, the insert and dual vents should not cause the firebox or chimney flue to become so hot that we are at risk of the wood combusting; especially when we select a model approved for a ZC fireplace.

If we have them do the clean and inspect we can ask about the code restrictions if it comes up when we have them tell us what options they have for us. (The techs all have brochures, etc with them).

 

[jtp10181]

I still think you should ask them what section they are talking about.... maybe they wont have an answer.... which would be quite funny.

 

[elkimmeg]

JTp funny I also read most of NFPA 54 I have the entire NFPA codes here on a CD in my laptop I also have the entire 2006 International codes including the gas plumbing electrical mecchanical/ first of all NFPA 54 is not the reconised gas code the international gas code is but they are so simmilar one probably is ok using the NFPA version

Tha change in use code does require a clmplete inspection and cleaning of that chimney. As for licenced chimney sweeps there is no reconized licencing agency on a federal level only a private organization the list educates and enlist members but no national agency. no national licencing I think eventually there will be but as of now sweeps do this on their own.
again there are many good sweeps that are not members of CSIA

JTP the refference to NFPA 54 might be to do with installation into a listed ZC Just like wood stoves many inserts can only be installed in ZC ul 127 listed fireplaces I have to dig into the international gas codes to confirm what he is talking about Like you I would really like to know what section of the code he was reffering to that would save going threw 14 chapters again

Honsetly I can not say if he is right or wrong. another possibility is you may be able to install a gas fireplase based on its own ZC listing and venting requirements. You may not be able to direct vent it but vent it using a liner up the existing vent pipe sealing the damper and also th top plate sealand proper termination cap the operative words is might I have to check code again still better you ask your inspector what he requires

 

[gishysue]

Thanks again for your input. Tuesday I spoke with the head guy at Co. #4 to learn that it was not necessarily NFPA 54, but their own company policy based on reputation, standing behind their product, liability and insurance. They will not install a unit that has not been inspected and UL approved for the customer's specific fireplace, nor will they install into a make and model that has not been tested and approved by the maker to take either the vent free or direct vent insert. Our Superior B836 is 20+ years old. What they will do is remove your existing firebox and install either a new vent free firebox and logs (about $2800 estimated cost) or a new direct vent firebox system (estimated at $3200 or more depending on what you pick). This way what they put in is designed and approved for its use. We had their sweep out yesterday to clean and inspect and give us the estimates. Our current system is a-okay for wood burning or vented gas log use as is. All it takes is money, my husband so aptly says; and we are not in a hurry, since winter is just about over around here.

 

[elkimmeg]

Company 4 is going about it the right way the safest way

 

[jtp10181]

I don't know of any ZC unit that is tested to take a Direct Vent gas insert... but many Direct Vent inserts are tested to work in any ZC wood unit, as long as the wood unit is installed to code and mfg guidelines. A direct vent insert is the easier cheaper way to go. If you really want a good investment though it is best to tear the entire thing out and get a direct vent fireplace. Every company has their policies and apparently that one works for them or they would not be in business anymore. Personally I think that is a silly policy though. A majority of our retail business is installing inserts and if we turned away every customer that wanted one in a ZC wood unit we would loose a lot of customers, or they would end up buying gas logs instead (ewww). Anyway... I would really consider going the direct vent fireplace route and stay away from vent free boxes / logs. If you do go with a "room vented" appliance make sure you discuss the maintenance and possible risks / side effects of "room vented" appliances. For the most part it is not vent free fireplaces that are unsafe themselves, it is uneducated homeowners that make them unsafe from lack of proper maintenance.