Another New Guy Looking to Go Gasification

[Bill the Dog]

Hello everyone!
I've been on Hearth.com for several years as I've heated my old house with a catalytic wood stove for 7 years. I've since moved to a much larger house and I don't have good access to my basement, so I want/need to put in an outdoor boiler. We've seen a fair number of Heatmores and Central Boilers in operation (6 within 0.5 miles of our house) and we are convinced that they smoke too much and while I like cutting wood, I don't want to double my work by using an OWB. That leads us to a gasifier and then a ton of questions.

First off, here's my setup. We're in central Wisconsin, so it gets cold, but not anything like Northern Minnesota where I grew up. I've got a 5 year old house with 2X6 walls, well insulated but lots and lots of windows, including a sun room. The house is 2400 sq ft on the main level and 2400 sq. ft in the basement which I am finishing off with 6" insulated walls also. We've had a heat loss calculation done for our house and we were told that we would burn approximately 2300 therms of natural gas in our current furnace in one year. We have kept the thermostat set at about 60 degrees now and we have only burned an actual 1110 therms in the past 12 months. I/We would desperately love to move the thermostat up to the 70ish range next winter as well as heat my 3 stall, insulated garage.
How can I use these numbers to figure out boiler size? I've got the heat loss calulator downloaded, but I get confused in trying to make the right selections of all the options it gives me. I've called Cozy heat and was told that we were on the line between an EKO 60 and the 80. What about other brands?

Secondly, I have no problems building a small shack for the boiler, but can I get by with a "yard barn" type of steel structure that the local building places have for sale for about $300? Is there any advantages to a stick built shed? How big of a shed am I looking at building for just a boiler and a little bit of extra room?

Thirdly, I'd like to start pulling PEX into my basement now while I'm finishing it. What diameter PEX do I need to run to my furnace and hot water heater? Should I put in a manifold system or can I run just one loop from the furnace to the water heater to the garage and back to the boiler?

I've got a ton more questions and I'd love to hear some opinions.

Bill the Dog

 

[Eric Johnson]

Welcome to the Boiler Room, Bill. I'm from Coloma (Waushara County) originally.

You have a number of different options. We have people with both EKO 60s and 80s here on the board. We also have some Garn owners (another good solution). You might also look into the Blue Forge, which can be set up outside and it should have the capacity you're looking for. There are others as well that don't pop immediately to mind.

I have a cinderblock boiler room in my barn. I've got about 2 inches of clearance on the sides, and a couple of feet in the back. No problems with that. You can put a gasifier in just about any structure except an attached garage. Whatever works best in your situation.

I'd need to know more about how your house is piped now, if it's a hot water system, before commenting on your piping plans. There are about a million different ways to do it, but it's best to start with what you've already got and take it from there. With a boiler the size of an EKO 60 or 80, you'll need at least 1 1/4-inch or 1 1/2-inch pex or multiple lines to get all the heat away from the boiler when it's going full-bore.

 

[Bill the Dog]

Eric,
My house currently has a high efficiency forced air natural gas furnace. My hot water heater is a 40 gallon 80% efficiency gas unit. I have no piping in my house at all except for drinking, toilet, washer, etc.

Bill the Dog

 

[antos_ketcham]

Welcome Bill.

I have a Greenwood 100 located in a shed attached to my woodshed. This set-up has worked out very well and is very convenient for wood storage and loading the boiler (twice a day). Once I figure out how to up-load photos I will do that so folks can see it.

Pete

 

[Eric Miller]

Bill,

I am at the same place you are in respect to designing a system. In using the heat loss calculator I found it easier to draw out my floor plan to include door and window sizes and then just start entering the info into the calculator room by room. I wasn't sure about some of the values either but played with them a bit to see what overall impact it made. I'm still not positive I got it all correct but my figure of 65,000 btu seems to match pretty close to my current 5 1/2 tons of Heat Pump capacity.

I'm considering a small outbuilding too, I will probably stick build mine if for no other reason then to make it match the house. NewHorizon has pictures of an outdoor BioMax boiler (http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/outdoor.php) but I think I read somewhere in the forum that it is not available. Anyway, the pictures would seem to indicate you don't have to have very much in terms of an outbuilding to house one but I would think that if your shed is not well insulated then you would need to use antifreeze in your system. What I've read here in different posts seems to indicate that it would be better to avoid using antifreeze if possible just to keep the system as simple as possible.

 

[Todd Drost]

Another new guy here looking to go gasification. Love this site. Why can't I put a wood boiler in a garage? I plan on converting the space as if it were any other type of boiler room such as proper fire code regs and so forth.

 

[jebatty]

It's exciting to think about a clean-burning, high efficiency wood boiler. I have a Tarm Solo Plus 40, self-installed last Sept, and very pleased. I installed mine in my shop, no outdoor building. I believe the Tarm is rated for inside installation, but you need to check local building codes, your insurer, and Tarm to make sure. Mfr. stated combustible clearances are rear 18", sides 6", front 36", top 18". http://www.woodboilers.com/

There are advantages/disadvantages to installing in or out. Be sure to consider water storage benefits. Wishing you success.

 

[antos_ketcham]

[quote author="Todd Drost" date="1205416945"]Another new guy here looking to go gasification. Love this site. Why can't I put a wood boiler in a garage? I plan on converting the space as if it were any other type of boiler room such as proper fire code regs and so forth.[/quote

I am not sure about what legal codes may apply exactly, but my sense is that there may be concerns about combustible dusts, liquids, and other materials as well as vehicles, mowers etc. being a fire hazard near a boiler. If the garage is attached then it could set your house ablaze as well.

From my experience you wouldn't want the boiler inside your garage for very basic reasons. Dust and ashes on vehicles and tools being one. The other is smoke.

My boiler is designed to be indoors or out and I can't imagine it being indoors. When you load it, smoke comes out the door and would fill a basement/house or garage pretty quickly.

Also - even though gasifiers burn more cleanly, I still like the fact that if something were to go wrong and I had a fire that it was not in my house or attached to it.

Good luck -

Pete

 

[Chris B]

Hi I am new to the site as well, great information and tons to read My two cents would be, do you need such a large stove? It sounds to me after reading your house size and construction information. That you might just have more heat than you will know what to do with it.
I was looking at a EKO 40 with storage to heat a 3200sqft house and a 1200 sqft garage, and the DHW for both. I live in central Ontario winters here are long and sometimes cold. I am by far a expert, just wondering if I might be looking at something to small for my situation!

 

[Tony H]

I am currently installing an EKO 40 in a steel shed to heat my 2800sf house, I got the unit from Dave at Cozy Heat. Right now I am sidelined from finishing my plumbing due to rotator cuff surgery last month.
Size of unit is probably due to your heating the garage plus the fact that they size to try and get you a system you can load twice a day with no storage and keep the house warm. If you intend to add storage and /or have ability to load 3 times a days on the coldest days you can go smaller in size.
Garage installation is against code in most areas and probably not supported by an insurance company due to that. There is no reason to stop you from using the garage if you convert it to regular living space meaning no more garage doors or auto access but some people have just carved out a new room in part of the garage with proper fire rated walls and doors . It's probably a good idea to work with your local building department and insurance company in that caes to make sure you are covered.
I like the outdoor metal shed idea because I can keep the fire risk, smoke, and mess away from the house plus the shed is fire resistant so no clearance issues and the wood storage can be close by. My shed is 10 x 12 and thats large enough for the boiler and some wood and I am going to put a carport type shed next to it for more wood. If doing it over I might go with a bigger shed and no carport for a cleaner appearance.
Pipe size I have is 2 runs of 1 1/4 pex al in the basement run from the buried cable to the furnace / water heater room from that point can put in a manifold or do whatever works best with you heating systems. The other thing to run would be some wire for controls like cat5 phone wire or a conduit so you can run wire later as/if needed and also some AC to power the boiler.

 

[Geno]

Hello everyone! I've been heating with wood for over 30 years and with a number of different stoves from an ugly black box Kalamazoo to a Vermont Castings Defiant. Whenever you have questions about what you're doing, ask a professional. The biggest hazard I see all the time is unsafe chimneys. Whether it is the wrong size, the wrong materials, has not been inspected and not kept clean, the connecting pipe is too close to combustables. A couple of things you will find with gasification boilers is that the stack temps are very low when compared to other woodstoves. When mine is cranking at 185 degree's, I can lay my hand on the single wall pipe a foot above the flue exit and still have my skin left. Overheating has been non-existent as when it heats to 195, the blower shuts down and starves it for air. I did install a strap-on aquastat set at 200 on the supply above to turn the circ pumps back on because they shut off along with the blower, but it's never gotten that hot. I've got mine installed in my workshop where I never have to go outside in the sleet and rain and blizzard to fill it up. I just built a rough-cut woodshed on the back and covered it with steel roofing to keep out the weather and I put in a door to access it and the wood. By the way, the EKO comes shipped with on a tubular steel pallet that you can leave attached and eliminates the need to place it up on blocks.
I'll tell you that if you're gonna heat 3200 and a 1200 garage in Ontario, you better go with a little bigger than a 40. I'd say at least a 60 or possibly an 80. While on one hand it is true that for peak operating efficiency a "right sized" boiler is called for but on the other hand, having a little larger unit will allow for other possibilities that you may not have considered. I fully intend on having a hot tub on my deck and using a side-arm heater to heat it with. I shuddered to think of what it would cost me to keep the water hot in the winter on electricity, now a whole other world has opened up. It also works great as a pool heater and extends for a couple of months a year the useable time. I also intend on installing a sauna with a circ pump and sauna heater to heat it, great for when I come back from X-country skiing in minus 5 temps. Yeah, it does idle more when the temps are not below zero, but it still produces nearly zero creasote which all burns off when the gasification chamber reaches peak at 2,000 degrees. I just believe that there is more hype than substance when considering that a gasification boiler may be sized a little larger than your immediate needs are. One needs to consider again how the thing operates and realize that many of the rules governing conventional woodstoves are not applicable. For one thing, the fuel chamber full of wood only burns at the bottom and not all the way through the wood. It is just a charcoal making machine, making all that wood ready to give off woodgas when it reaches the bottom of the fuel chamber.
Of course a couple of the biggest considerations is piping sizes, making sure that it is is capable of an adequate flow rate for the BTU requirement, which in almost all cases when not located next to the central heating system, is a minimum of 1 1/4" and usually 1 1/2" will suffice. The larger diamater requires a smaller circ pump which in turns means less velocity, better heat transfer, and less noise wattage being used. Another consideration sometimes overlooked and caught in hindsight is making sure that all supple and return lines are insulated adequatley lessening heat loss to the central heating appliance and lessening the load on the gasification boiler.
Oh, I did notice that someone asked awhile ago, probably on another thread, what the "resistor looking thing" was for shipped with the EKO boilers..... It can be hooked via doorbell wire to the thermostat leads on the back of the regulator and creates a remote thermostat. It's a remote sensor.
Yeah, I confess, I've been sandbagging for awhile. :coolsmile:

 

[Eric Johnson]

Welcome to the Boiler Room, Geno, and thanks for your input.

 

[leaddog]

You can buy 8x20 shipping containers for around $1500 or less and they make great boiler sheds. You can then side them and make them look nice, they are fire proof, wind tight, water tight, and are moveable. Room for storage, wood and boiler.
leaddog