Another example of bad chimney construction

[bholler]

Some more pics

 

[begreen]

Will the fireplace liner get insulated or is it already an insulated liner?

 

[bholler]

Will the fireplace liner get insulated or is it already an insulated liner?

I don't have enough room to properly insulate in the bottom 3.5' and can't make enough room without risking collapse. So I will just make the required 1" clearance and the wall will be non-combustible as well. It is wrapped above but there is a section that was poured solid. I don't like doing it that way but I don't have much choice and it will be safe. I would normally just downsize the liner but this one was borderline on sizing already.

 

[bholler]

Now it's up to the carpenters to finish it off.

 

[CharlieTuna]

That chimney was absolutely built that way no modifications done. Built in 82. The scary part is that it really isn't very uncommon we just don't know untill it causes a problem or the wall is opened up for some other reason.

There was an entire development here built in the early 90 where every furnace chimney was 3 sided going up the side of the house they built the 4th side one they got to the roof. They all passed inspections just fine and no one knew untill one caught fire about 5 years ago.

Someone I know bought a fixer-upper from an estate. This person [gender withheld] watches all the house flip, fixer upper shows, but didn't know, when the wall board got removed, that the chimney liner shouldn't be showing. The house was built in 1952. The builder took the masonry ruble and packed it behind the wall board, and then just put a layer of mortar every three feet from floor to ceiling. This saved money both on good masonry, the labor of doing it right, and the cost of getting rid of the rubble. The clay liner had gaps with no mortar in places, which would have allowed exhaust gas and carbon monoxide to leak into a child's bedroom.

If the owner doesn't know the history of such a house, it is a good idea to check things like chimneys and chimney liners. Today it's a lot easier to get an inspection camera and see things like that. Builders take every short cut they can. If it's your house, you want to know these things, sooner, rather than later.

 

[bholler]

Someone I know bought a fixer-upper from an estate. This person [gender withheld] watches all the house flip, fixer upper shows, but didn't know, when the wall board got removed, that the chimney liner shouldn't be showing. The house was built in 1952. The builder took the masonry ruble and packed it behind the wall board, and then just put a layer of mortar every three feet from floor to ceiling. This saved money both on good masonry, the labor of doing it right, and the cost of getting rid of the rubble. The clay liner had gaps with no mortar in places, which would have allowed exhaust gas and carbon monoxide to leak into a child's bedroom.

If the owner doesn't know the history of such a house, it is a good idea to check things like chimneys and chimney liners. Today it's a lot easier to get an inspection camera and see things like that. Builders take every short cut they can. If it's your house, you want to know these things, sooner, rather than later.

Camera inspections are great tools and can tell you allot about the condition of the interior of the chimney. But there is no way to know things like what you were talking about or the one I just fixed which are hidden behind the walls. The only way to know that is to tear the walls down and that just isn't realist. This is one of the reasons I stress proper insulation so much.

I can also tell you atleast 90% of the clay liners I scan have gaps at the joints either from eroded mortar or simply no mortar

 

[begreen]

Our Resolute I had a bi-metallic thermostat that did a reasonable job of controlling the burn.

 

[bholler]

Our Resolute I had a bi-metallic thermostat that did a reasonable job of controlling the burn.

I think you are in the wrong thread. But yes they did a pretty good job

 

[CharlieTuna]

Camera inspections are great tools and can tell you allot about the condition of the interior of the chimney. But there is no way to know things like what you were talking about or the one I just fixed which are hidden behind the walls. The only way to know that is to tear the walls down and that just isn't realist. This is one of the reasons I stress proper insulation so much.

I can also tell you atleast 90% of the clay liners I scan have gaps at the joints either from eroded mortar or simply no mortar

I think a camera inspection that shows problems puts the owner on notice to look for other problems as well. Under standard contracts, every buyer has the right to get an inspection before settlement. Lenders require them. Few people hire a chimney sweep to run a camera down the chimney. If code compliance is as bad as you say, I would expect more to do that. Furthermore, since the insurance companies will pay for that lack of compliance, I would expect that they might be more aggressive in demanding them. Our municipality requires inspections by the code enforcement official when a house is sold. That is a little bigger government than I prefer, but the country has been going in that direction. (There has always been an issue with corruption or nepotism with building inspectors, and many home owners prefer to avoid them.) I am also surprised that no one has made a robot that can be lowered down a chimney with some mortar to patch gaps. The technology is there to do it.

Yes, few people want to open a wall. Of course, just about anyone can do it, and hanging dry wall isn't exactly rocket science either. Anyone buying an older house should consider checking the chimneys that way. It's a safety concern, and other things could be learned about the house that way.

 

[SpaceBus]

I think a camera inspection that shows problems puts the owner on notice to look for other problems as well. Under standard contracts, every buyer has the right to get an inspection before settlement. Lenders require them. Few people hire a chimney sweep to run a camera down the chimney. If code compliance is as bad as you say, I would expect more to do that. Furthermore, since the insurance companies will pay for that lack of compliance, I would expect that they might be more aggressive in demanding them. Our municipality requires inspections by the code enforcement official when a house is sold. That is a little bigger government than I prefer, but the country has been going in that direction. (There has always been an issue with corruption or nepotism with building inspectors, and many home owners prefer to avoid them.) I am also surprised that no one has made a robot that can be lowered down a chimney with some mortar to patch gaps. The technology is there to do it.

Yes, few people want to open a wall. Of course, just about anyone can do it, and hanging dry wall isn't exactly rocket science either. Anyone buying an older house should consider checking the chimneys that way. It's a safety concern, and other things could be learned about the house that way.

We have had to remove most of the interior wall cladding, drywall and cedar in this case, from our house due to bad workmanship/maintenance. Thankfully our interior masonry chimney is freestanding and accessible, but it does not have 1" gaps where required. The mason and framers seem like they tried to do it right, but the drywallers, flooring, and roofing guys really messed the whole thing up.

 

[begreen]

The retrofitters and remodelers that worked on our old house over the years also ignored safety. The issues I have uncovered in it are amazing and in some cases downright scary. Wood framing encased the fireplace chimney. There were two takeoffs that were covered up. One with a plaster plug and the other by wood then drywall. I won't even go into the wiring, or the door framed with unsecured 2x4s.

 

[FTG-05]

Did an inspection today to repair after a structure fire. Anyone see any problems?

View attachment 277329

 

[SpaceBus]

The retrofitters and remodelers that worked on our old house over the years also ignored safety. The issues I have uncovered in it are amazing and in some cases downright scary. Wood framing encased the fireplace chimney. There were two takeoffs that were covered up. One with a plaster plug and the other by wood then drywall. I won't even go into the wiring, or the door framed with unsecured 2x4s.

We have two thimbles in our bedroom, both capped. The caps appear to be made of some kind of asbestos, so we don't disturb them.

 

[bholler]

I think a camera inspection that shows problems puts the owner on notice to look for other problems as well. Under standard contracts, every buyer has the right to get an inspection before settlement. Lenders require them. Few people hire a chimney sweep to run a camera down the chimney. If code compliance is as bad as you say, I would expect more to do that. Furthermore, since the insurance companies will pay for that lack of compliance, I would expect that they might be more aggressive in demanding them. Our municipality requires inspections by the code enforcement official when a house is sold. That is a little bigger government than I prefer, but the country has been going in that direction. (There has always been an issue with corruption or nepotism with building inspectors, and many home owners prefer to avoid them.) I am also surprised that no one has made a robot that can be lowered down a chimney with some mortar to patch gaps. The technology is there to do it.

Yes, few people want to open a wall. Of course, just about anyone can do it, and hanging dry wall isn't exactly rocket science either. Anyone buying an older house should consider checking the chimneys that way. It's a safety concern, and other things could be learned about the house that way.

Yes a camera inspection may show you something but in most cases like the one this thread is about it would show you absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. I know for a fact that if I had done a full level 3 inspection on that chimney I would have never known the issues it had. There is just no way to have any idea.

Yes lenders typically require inspections. But usually only water sewer and pest. Sometimes a whole home inspection but most of those are a joke.

We have a hard enough time convincing people a standard level 3 inspection is worth it much less a level 4 which involves opening up walls etc. It would be great if people were willing to do it but it just won't happen.

There are techniques and systems to repair flue tile mortar joints. But why they cost almost as much for the customer as a reline with stainless. And after spending that money they are still left with a system that is vastly inferior to an insulated stainless lined chimney. Repairing clay liners just makes no sense to me at all unless it is for coal use.

 

[bholler]

We have had to remove most of the interior wall cladding, drywall and cedar in this case, from our house due to bad workmanship/maintenance. Thankfully our interior masonry chimney is freestanding and accessible, but it does not have 1" gaps where required. The mason and framers seem like they tried to do it right, but the drywallers, flooring, and roofing guys really messed the whole thing up.

It should actually be 2" for an internal chimney

 

[begreen]

Sometimes a whole home inspection but most of those are a joke.

Ours certainly was. Within one month I had discovered 4 major flaws. When we did the remodel 10 yrs later we discovered 3 more major issues. The inspection was a total waste of money.

 

[bholler]

Ours certainly was. Within one month I had discovered 4 major flaws. When we did the remodel 10 yrs later we discovered 3 more major issues. The inspection was a total waste of money.

They usually are. And the inspectors cannot be held liable for anything they miss

 

[EbS-P]

Ours certainly was. Within one month I had discovered 4 major flaws. When we did the remodel 10 yrs later we discovered 3 more major issues. The inspection was a total waste of money.

Took my 5 years to get around to taking all the dot stickers the inpector out everywhere. Like ever window that would not open because every single one was painted shut. We know the kitchen had been done recently complete redo. And knew they didn’t pull any permits for it or the deck that is sagging badly with no supports for a 20’ span which supports deck and 1/2 roof. And we still bought it. Issues so far have been annoying ( if/when it comes time to fix the deck that will be expensive).

 

[SpaceBus]

It should actually be 2" for an internal chimney

I think the builders assumed drywall was noncombustible. The chimney itself is just barely 2" from the framing.

 

[CharlieTuna]

Yes a camera inspection may show you something but in most cases like the one this thread is about it would show you absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. I know for a fact that if I had done a full level 3 inspection on that chimney I would have never known the issues it had. There is just no way to have any idea.

Yes lenders typically require inspections. But usually only water sewer and pest. Sometimes a whole home inspection but most of those are a joke.

We have a hard enough time convincing people a standard level 3 inspection is worth it much less a level 4 which involves opening up walls etc. It would be great if people were willing to do it but it just won't happen.

There are techniques and systems to repair flue tile mortar joints. But why they cost almost as much for the customer as a reline with stainless. And after spending that money they are still left with a system that is vastly inferior to an insulated stainless lined chimney. Repairing clay liners just makes no sense to me at all unless it is for coal use.

The lenders require an inspection. After the inspection the inspector typically calls the buyer gives an overview of what was found. If the buyer still wants to buy the house, the inspector will write a fair report. If not, the report gets worse to help the buyer escape the sale, or negotiate the price down. The latter works well if its a buyers market.

Any masonry can settle over 50+ years. When it was not built right from the start, things will likely be worse. The chimney I saw had at least one flue liner block badly out of plumb. I think if I had seen that and the missing mortar, which may never have been there, from the inside, it might have been enough to prompt me to open the wall to further examine the chimney.

I'm all for engineering things above and beyond. If the extra mass is good for a coal stove, it's good for a hot burning wood stove too.

 

[bholler]

The lenders require an inspection. After the inspection the inspector typically calls the buyer gives an overview of what was found. If the buyer still wants to buy the house, the inspector will write a fair report. If not, the report gets worse to help the buyer escape the sale, or negotiate the price down. The latter works well if its a buyers market.

Any masonry can settle over 50+ years. When it was not built right from the start, things will likely be worse. The chimney I saw had at least one flue liner block badly out of plumb. I think if I had seen that and the missing mortar, which may never have been there, from the inside, it might have been enough to prompt me to open the wall to further examine the chimney.

I'm all for engineering things above and beyond. If the extra mass is good for a coal stove, it's good for a hot burning wood stove too.

I deal with lots of realestate transactions and I have never seen an inspector operate that way. There simply is no need for them to do that the buyer doesn't need an excuse. They can back out at any time.

You do realize a large percentage of clay liners have those things you mention and it is not an indication of further problems.

My comment about coal and clay liners has nothing to do with extra mass in the chimney. It is about the corrosive nature of coal and the fact that clay holds up the best for that fuel. Other than coal insulated stainless out performs clay drastically for every other fuel

 

[Caw]

Now it's up to the carpenters to finish it off.

Looks great! Sounds like a PITA job. May I ask what this ended up costing the homeowners? Just out if curiosity. They should get an insert if they have any money left

 

[bholler]

Looks great! Sounds like a PITA job. May I ask what this ended up costing the homeowners? Just out if curiosity. They should get an insert if they have any money left

I don't know what their deductible was. The bill was $12000 but covered by insurance