All-Nighter Giant Moe Stove

[coaly]

Not to single out All Nighter, here's Tri Lakes version of a Fisher baby Bear. Identical stove with their own cast door ! Sold next to Fisher, these dealers would have Fisher signs in the windows, and sell them next to their own. What would you buy if you were shown a UL listed Fisher next to the exact same constructed stove (built in the back shop right there) for $100 less when the real stove was selling for $350? So they sold more of their own, saved the royalty sent to Bob, and their own brand populated their area since they didn't have nationwide sales capability. Now if you were a licensee selling only Fisher, and one of these unscrupulous dealers was selling their cheaper product taking business from the area you paid for, this started the animosity among dealers.
Imagine paying $25,000 for the rights to your state, and this competitor selling across state lines to your perspective customers!

If I didn't show the front of the door, you would think this was a Fisher product;
Good thing I'm on blood pressure medication. :vampire:

 

[Jason Hall]

Wow, lots of Great Info on this site. I have been researching All Nighter's, as I have a few. These old wood stove's are very addicting lol, I want on of every size and brand! This thread helped me learn quite a bit about the history of wood stove's. As much as I hate It when people copy, I do have some respect for people making thing's better. IMO, the All Nighter Is a better heating stove. They changed quite a few thing's to make It look different, and distribute more heat. Have the people that are so against the stove's that resemble a Fisher ever burned an All Nighter to see If It Is possibly better. Either way, I feel bad for Bob Fisher. I have had the same thing happen to me, In a MUCH smaller scale of course. I build Triple clamp's to put modern Motorcycle forks on Classic 3 wheeler's. I have had people directly duplicate my parts It Is very annoying and heart breaking when this happens, but will happen no matter what you do. As far as I know you need to change a product to a certain extent to not Infringe on pattent's. How much did All nighter change with there Moe model's? I agree with keeping It simple, but people naturally feel the need to Improve thing's. I will admit, the all nighter has the possibility for more problems. I have a mid Moe that has a water jacket recess surrounding the 6" flue outlet. It was Cracked when I bought It, someone burnt It Way to hot I'm sure. I feel the only reason this stove broke was because of the water jacket. IMO the recess needed to be made of thicker material, and needed fire brick protecting the protruding steel Inside the fire box. Mine cracked at the lower section of the water jacket recess on the Inside, It then traveled down the rear seam that IMO should not be where It Is. As far as the tube's rotting, they are pretty thick tube's 3/16" thick at least. I would think maybe a stove that sat outside In the rain would be one of the only one's with rotted tube's?

 

[coaly]

Welcome to the forum,
It's not that James changed the stove he was supposed to be making under license, he took the same stove and added the tubes. Look close, there's a Fisher under there with a larger ash fender. It will heat just like a Fisher, (made by a Fisher builder, with the same materials) maybe better with a fan pushing air out of the tubes, but it would have to be very strong to overcome the natural convection rising off the top. It should increase the BTU output though. There's one on ebay now that a buyer asked the question if it had a blower. Sellers reply; It has a place to mount a tiny insignificant blower. Very few HIGH QUALITY STOVES built in the last 35 or more years have fans. This seller is familiar with Fisher and the capability of the blower in their Inserts, but compares this Insert as "larger than a Grandpa". It takes a 24 inch log, (same as Grandpa) and a poor blower, compared to a Fisher Insert taking a 27" log and having a strong variable speed blower moving air across every square inch of firebox area. Yet the title claims "Better built than a Fisher" ? Selling for over $1,000 when you can get a brass and glass Fisher Insert for 350. UL listing is not mentioned in the description. Obviously an All Nighter Insert is nothing like a Fisher Insert. Anyway;
It's also not only about someone else copying and selling your product. That's bad enough like you've experienced. Imagine if you patented your Triple Clamps, and couldn't make your own fast enough. You have 10,000 back ordered and it will take you 2 years to catch up. So you hire a machine shop to make your parts under contract. You specify how you want them made, with detailed prints. You pay for trademark protection, so everyone knows they are your brand. Next they make your invention, but change the hardware, or add their own fancy marking and market their own to your customers instead. But your original part is a part of their product. All you can do is sue them for patent infringement and cancel your contract with them. If you lose your suit, all you can do is strive to make a better product than your original. That's what Fisher did with so many revisions and improvements.
Fisher's problem was that he was trying to patent his idea of a outlet higher than the door to prevent smoke from coming in. The judge found you can't patent the way something naturally works. (heat rises) They could have put the air intakes on the sides, (his patent was for intakes in the door) and put door gaskets on to change the stoves configuration, but they didn't.
The other steel plate stoves I've used have all been comparable to the Fisher's I still heat with.
The reason I prefer Fisher is they were the first, they made the most, had more models than any other, and more options and accessories. They were the wood heater leader and everyone else followed.

I believe the reason the tubes burn out is due to their thickness being less than the other materials. Sides are protected by brick, so only the top gets direct flame and is thicker. (I assume All Nighter has a 5/16" thick top) Had they made them with replaceable black iron pipe, they would have been easily repaired. (or schedule 80 pipe the thickness of the stove)

 

[Jason Hall]

Great reply Coaly, make's a lot of sense. For some reason I love the All Nighter, regardless of all the mumbo jumbo LOL. I keep searching and keep finding these old stove's. I did miss a fisher by a couple of hours. It looked just like the Tri Lakes stove you posted. Anyway thanks for the Info, your a wealth of knowledge. Not sure why, but I will keep picking these thing's up as I find them cheap enough. These stoves are as addicting to me as a old Honda 3 wheeler I want them all.

 

[mac8429]

Just brought home some original All Nighter literature (from the cabin) that I have never seen anywhere else. I will scan and post for all to have a look. My parents purchased a Mid Glo Moe from All Nighter Stove Works West in Richmond, Indiana in 1984. Been going strong since then with the original blower and no leaks/burnouts in the tubes. If you recall, even Baxter Fisher had a go at his own stove; he was awarded a patent for his stove and came up with an air inlet design used by Fisher. Check the patent records. While Fisher undoubtedly had the original airtight woodstove and was exploited as all great ideas have been, he by no means made the only successful airtight stove. To say Fisher was the best soley because he was the first is not accurate. Others followed and the technology has continued to improve. That would be like saying after Henry Ford developed the Model T, all cars that followed would pale by comparison.

I am definitely a fan of Bob Fisher, but not to the exclusion of others who also made good quality stoves.

 

[coaly]

The patents are on the first page of the "Everything Fisher" thread.
When Baxter designed a cooler cap to touch, Bob suggested he patent it to take advantage of royalties.
It was invented for, but not made just for Fisher Stoves. Anyone could buy his cap. The cap hasn't been improved upon, and is still made for stove manufacturers today. Newer versions of the cap with 5 fins uses the same patent number as the first.

No one said "Fisher was the best because they were the first". It reads; "I prefer Fisher because they were the first". The All Nighter was a well built stove. Built JUST LIKE the Fishers. By a Fisher dealer who was shown how to build Fisher Stoves, then built his own version just like it, THEN made improvements. I heat with a Hitzer hopper coal stove, and before that a Gibralter coal stove. Both welded steel plate with firebrick lining. Who do you think came up with that idea?

Obviously you've never driven or worked on a Model T. They ARE the BEST vehicle ever made.
I own a 1921. It's not a show car, it's an all original driver. They were made of Vanadium steel which is very rust resistant. Henry was a racer and developed it for cam and crankshafts. When he designed the car, he built most of the car out of it. Tool steel that chisels and drill bits are made of today. It has no water pump, no fuel pump, no oil pump, no distributor, no transmission....... no clutch. (the bands and brakes are replaceable from inside the car, in the drivers seat) Parts are still available cheaper than modern car parts today. Mine has original spark plugs, because they come apart to replace the electrode. Oh, and my license plate was a pay $70 once, never renew, and is transferable to another vehicle if I get another. I'm in a state that has annual vehicle inspections. This car is exempt. My insurance is $13 every 6 months.

Improvement is a matter of perspective.

The first airtight stove made was the Papa Bear size and shape. The smaller Mama and Baby were necessary changes for people that didn't need that much heat. The double door wasn't an improvement, it was progress. Just like the glass door stoves. They use shorter wood, have breakable parts, and are less efficient. That should not be considered an improvement. They were necessary changes to appeal to people and to compete with other stove makers. Same as nickel and brass plating. So to collect All Nighters, would not be a fun thing to me, since the first one looks like the last. As far as I know, they didn't have to progress through changes, they just copied the different models already in existence. All other stove manufacturers made their stove from their single location. Fisher is the only one with variations across countries that makes them interesting and hard to find.

You should put the All Nighter literature in Hearth Wiki where people will find it as well.

 

[coaly]

Here's one of those scrapped stoves that didn't get scrapped. The guys made steel plate homemade doors and sold them after they closed.

 

[mac8429]

Thanks for the reply Coaly.

I too admire the simplicity of older vehicles and older technologies; I have old tractors, a jeep truck, a hit-and-miss engine, and have owned a myriad of old vehicles. While I am very familiar with Henry Ford and the Model T, and have visited the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village in Dearborn, Michigan, I also am a student of history and realize that the Model T was followed by the A, B, TT truck, etc. I appreciate the vision it took to develop any product: for example, the television. Invented in the USA. Go into any retail store today and look for a tv made in the USA. Even Curtis Mathes is not made here anymore. All made overseas, but nevertheless we continue to buy them...Sorry for getting off the subject....

I admire your loyalty to Fisher Stoves, and while I would have dearly loved to buy an original Fisher stove with glass doors and a blower, one didn't exist (to my knowledge). Bob Fisher had the vision and others took that vision and offered different options. Purists shouldn't look at a glass door and blower tubes as bells and whistles that don't matter to others, just realize that a market existed for those options. I have no doubt that Morande copied Fisher's intial design; it's obvious when you look at the stoves. Like it or not, other stoves are part of the air-tight stove history that exists.

I, for one, appreciate your knowledge of Fisher Stoves and hope that you continue to document their history on this forum.