air/water heater exchangers

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
Status
Not open for further replies.

toddm

Member
Hearth Supporter
Jan 2, 2009
28
south central pa
Hi, I've read the various advice here on using a wood stove as backup heat in a solar hydronic system, and plan to press on regardless. Apparently wood stove boilers in Europe routinely run radiators, baseboards and slabs, but I've given up on finding one in this side of Atlantic. I need your help with fabricating air and water heat exchangers that will capture up about two thirds of a conventional stove's heat.

The stove will be centrally located in a 1,000 sf room. I want to pull off enough heat in an air heat exchanger to keep a 600 SF second floor at roughly equivalent temperatures. I also want a backboiler that will move heat to the slab on the main floor via thermosiphon and indirect tank. The idea is meet a maximum 25k btu/hr heat loss on days when the sun doesn't shine and bank enough heat in concrete floors/walls to carry the house through much of the night. I would be perfectly content with a 10-degree daily swing.

I have a blank slate because the house doesn't exist yet. I have attached (I hope) a graphic that seems to me to be a reasonable approach. I'd tuck the stove in what would appear to have been a fireplace. I'd complete surround it with an insert of steel plate to capture radiant heat in four of six directions. I'd route the smoke through and around an air heat exchanger at the top of the insert a la an oven or masonry stove. An air handler directly above would pull air through this exchanger and circulate it on the second floor.

Plenty of possibilities for water as well: a radiator tucked behind the stove; a coil inside the stove, or on the back; OWB type exchangers built into the air exchanger. All of the above.

Yes, I understand that I can ruin the stove's efficiency by being overly greedy. I'd want most of the exchanging done outside the fire box. The chimney will have R10 insulation in a straight run from about 6-8 feet to a cap at about 20 feet.

The graphic shows a British made Esse Ironheart, which claims 26k btu/hr, with 15k btu output to water. It's sold here because it is exempt from EPA certification as a cooker. Alas, I figure I need 40k to 50k btu/hour to produce enough heat in a hot, efficient burn of six to eight hours. Stove recommendations also welcome. I'd need an outside air supply, and an automatic shutdown feature would be nice. Other than that I am not fussy at all.
 

Attachments

  • [Hearth.com] air/water heater exchangers
    stove.webp
    18.1 KB · Views: 588
The first problem I see is having access to all your plumbing behind the stove.
If I was building a home from scratch, it would only seem smart to design for elimination of a boiler.
That would be a huge amount of time and $ to find out it just doesn't suffice.

How about a centralized masonary job with a DHW coil incorporated.
 
Sorry. Didn't mean to present myself as entirely rational. A great southerly view calls for lots of windows, which require a concrete floor to moderate a significant risk of overheating. The slab leads to Pex coils which point to a backboiler.
Actually, water heating could be done remotely in an air/water heat exchanger. The principal question is whether a steel surround of the type I have in mind can pull off two thirds of the stove's output. I could weld plenums into its sides and back as well, and insulate the whole thing to R10.
 
I believe you'd get a better response if this was moved to the boiler room but that's up to the moderators.
 
OK, deafening silence, and I am not that brave, so it is on to Plan F (A-E being deadends ouside of Britain, France and other technologically advanced countries.) Maybe I can get hydronic heat from an indoor wood fire by adding an air-water heat exchanger to a fireplace ducted for central heating.
If I sound peevish, it is because I am. Herewith the three myths about wood stove boilers floating around the Web.
1 They're dirty because the boiler coils scour off too much heat.
Really? The Dunsley Yorkshire puts 40k btu/hour into water, and 2.5 grams of particulates/hour into the air, as measured by the Brits. It should fly through EPA certification. Converting pounds to dollars, British retailers want about $2,800 for it.
2. They can reduce your house to rubble.
Actually, a vented tank heated by thermosiphon is as a dangerous as a pot of water sitting on your stove.
3. Indoor boilers are no better than (fill in the blank.)
In fact, marrying wood stoves and thermal mass represents a happy confluence of brief, efficent burns and lingering heat, as masonry heater buffs will tell you. If you're putting radiant heat in a concrete floor anyway, you should be able to get the benefit with a small attractive stove with visible flame. Unless you are served by the benighted U.S. stove industry.
There. I've vented. No more risk of explosion.
 
toddm:

What you're proposing/suggesting is a significant task no matter how you slice it. It will either involve an engineer or a *whole lot* of time in construction, installation, trial and error.

It's hard to know what you're here for - approval of the idea? A pre-existing custom plan for your 'soon to be' dwelling? Just conversation?

Undoubtedly, it's possible to do something along the lines of what you're thinking... but those same lines are far from clear.

Peter B.

-----
 
You're right. An off the shelf answer is far superior to jerry rigging. So what I want is a Dunsley Yorkshire stove. While you can't help me there, maybe you can explain why I get misinformation instead, including an article on this site about DHW which states flatly that "A woodstove cannot produce the volumes of water needed to heat your home through a baseboard or radiator system." What the writer meant is that a U.S. stove can't do it, athough dozens of European stoves can.
 
toddm:

This thread in the Boiler Room might interest you...

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/34648/

... regarding masonry heater / wood boiler combinations.

Definitely NOT 'off the shelf' stuff.

--

PS - If you have handy links to UK or European free standing stoves with provision for heating water - either for DHW or hydronic heat - please post them. I'd be very interested.

Peter B.

-----
 
Kenny Chaos, do you have a thread with specific advice about importing? That was Plan B but I didn't find anything here that I could convert to a phone number or email address. The online Brit retailers all told me no can do U.S. sales. Wasn't clear on the law either, although I thought I could argue to ICE and local building officials that it was EPA exempt central heating.
 
Peter B., This link will take you to an impressive list of wood boilers: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/stoves_with_backboilers.html
The Dunsley is the only one with a particulate rating listed, and the site describes it as the only boiler legal in the UK's "smokeless zones." Otherwise, the Brits seem more concerned with CO ratings. But the stoves' efficiencies are right up there, and literally 30 models would meet my hydronic requirement of 25k btu/ hr.
 
Go back through the titles of the last few pages here in the boiler room.
You'll see other stuff to interest you.
Keep an eye open for Kotley.
That was just discussed for import.
 
Sweet success! I was cogitating as hard as I could on who in Britain might be as hungry for export sales as Kotly obviously is in Poland. Then I sat up and smote my forehead. Ebay! Or more specifically www.ebay.co.uk Long story short a Stratford Eco-Boiler will soon be winging its way to Pa.: 70k btu/hr max output, 41k btu/hr output to water. 73 percent efficient. Curved glass door. A steal at 1 GB pound = $1.48, although shipping claimed all of the savings. Purchase protection courtesy of Visa. (OK, 220V on the air controls and metric threads on the plumbing, but you can't have everything.)
I'll let you know how a modern indoor wood boiler and a radiant slab match up.
Thanks and regards.
Todd
 
Status
Not open for further replies.