Agitated w. Stove Marketing
- Thread starter Mr. Kelly
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I think manufacturers should list the dimensions and volumes of the firebox for the more educated consumers. I compiled this information myself. I was primarily looking at Jotul, Hearthstone, & Vermont Castings. Each of the manufacturers had some of the info, but not all of it. This was just a part of my due diligence before I bought a stove. One dealer thought I was a bit ADD and wanted to tell me which stove I should buy. Another dealer was very helpful, understood my concerns, put a tape measure in my hand, and let me measure anything I wanted. Guess which dealer got my business?
I agree that the design of the firebox is very important. You need to best match this for your burn times as well as for how you cut your firewood. I was looking at fireboxes in the 1.5-2 cu. ft. range. I went with the Jotul F 400 Castine as the firebox measured 20.5" x 13.4" x 11" for a 1.75 cu. ft. volume. The Hearthstone Shelburne measured 20.5" x 14.5" x 11" for a 2.0 cu. ft. volume. The VT Castings Encore had a 2.1 cu. ft. box, but I can't remember the dimensions as I ruled out this stove fairly quick.
I wanted the 20" box length so that I could easily fit 16-18" wood. I have a mix of purchased wood as well as hard maple that I cut off of my own land. I really like Morso stoves, but they have terrible fireboxes in that they are very narrow and 16" is really the max log they can take. Good luck trying to buy wood in that length at a reasonable price. I also quickly ruled out N-S boxes as the stoves were too deep for my hearth mount application.
One final point on the Oslo (and any large stove for that matter). If you really plan to load the stove to its maximum for an overnight burn, then you are going to have to cut some of your wood to get smaller pieces so that you can pack the wood together like a puzzle. Now, is it really a good idea to pack it tight with so much wood and remove all of the airspace from the firebox, of course not. You have to actually experiment with the stove and see how it burns. This is where the design of the stove really comes into play. You either have to buy one and burn it for yourself or ask people who own the stove to give you feedback. Stoves are not all created equal.
I agree that the design of the firebox is very important. You need to best match this for your burn times as well as for how you cut your firewood. I was looking at fireboxes in the 1.5-2 cu. ft. range. I went with the Jotul F 400 Castine as the firebox measured 20.5" x 13.4" x 11" for a 1.75 cu. ft. volume. The Hearthstone Shelburne measured 20.5" x 14.5" x 11" for a 2.0 cu. ft. volume. The VT Castings Encore had a 2.1 cu. ft. box, but I can't remember the dimensions as I ruled out this stove fairly quick.
I wanted the 20" box length so that I could easily fit 16-18" wood. I have a mix of purchased wood as well as hard maple that I cut off of my own land. I really like Morso stoves, but they have terrible fireboxes in that they are very narrow and 16" is really the max log they can take. Good luck trying to buy wood in that length at a reasonable price. I also quickly ruled out N-S boxes as the stoves were too deep for my hearth mount application.
One final point on the Oslo (and any large stove for that matter). If you really plan to load the stove to its maximum for an overnight burn, then you are going to have to cut some of your wood to get smaller pieces so that you can pack the wood together like a puzzle. Now, is it really a good idea to pack it tight with so much wood and remove all of the airspace from the firebox, of course not. You have to actually experiment with the stove and see how it burns. This is where the design of the stove really comes into play. You either have to buy one and burn it for yourself or ask people who own the stove to give you feedback. Stoves are not all created equal.
One thing I have found (with my VC Defiant) is that you wood size needs to no larger than the door size to fill to max capacity. I can only load this 3 cubic foot w/e. No n/s is less than 12". I tried using 22" wood and was not able to load full because you can't "kidy corner" the wood thru the door when you get near full. So I cut 18". In writing this post a thought came to my mind... is the 18" wood loaded full or 22" wood loaded 2/3 full is the same or more.
There is another way, get a new cheap or used stove and use/abuse the hell out of it while you learn the ropes. Then, in a year or two move it to the garage and go get the stove you need based on your new-found experience.
I'm a guitar player. This kinda reminds me of guys who want to play and drop $4k on a signature model. My first guitar was $200.
I'm a guitar player. This kinda reminds me of guys who want to play and drop $4k on a signature model. My first guitar was $200.
branchburner said:
They could darn well provide it after they've got the cash in their hot little wallets, though. They'd actually save themselves a fair amount of trouble,too. I can only imagine the number of new buyers who pester them with complaints about their new stoves not working right when the problem is nothing more than trying to burn wood advertised as "seasoned."
Rougement said:
There you go. I think that's probably the best way to go for a lot of folks. I tend to do that when I'm buying equipment that's new to me, get a cheapo or used one first to see what kinds of problems I have and which are really important versus not such a big deal. And then sometimes the cheapo turns out to be just fine for my needs and I save a lot of money by not having bought the best-rated "Cadillac" version to start with.
gyrfalcon said:
Using this kind of logic, do you expect Ford to give you driving lessons after you buy their car, or should that be the dealer's responsibility?
Where do you take charge? I think the dealer if he didn't want to help you after the sale would tell you so, but I think many are willing to help. We have dealers on the forum, ask them how much after purchase grief they get from the customer. Some way too much, others they never see again.
Last year I was in a hardware store buying parts with a friend to fix his stove pipe. My friend started a conversation with a fellow buying parts and I heard those fatal words, "Ask him, he knows." Started an impromptu seminar on stoves. Had about ten people involved and the salesman from the store. All questions were the kind many said they were embarrassed to ask the stove store people. Nothing over technical, mostly common sense issues.
Can dealers and manufacturers do a better job? Of course, but what may be better for you is not for someone else. Stuffing their glossy brochures with "hard data" is off-putting to many and would result in loss of sales. To have to ask a question and get the facts from the dealer seems reasonable. When I was buying lots of shop tools, I asked a million questions, got so the Delta Machine dealer would call me when they had a question they couldn't answer, 'cause it was one of those I probably asked and got the answer(nice guys). It used to be called due dilligence, today too many say it just wasting time. We expect to be handed the total package, just the way we want it, all in a nice red bow. It doesn't happen that way.
80% or more of the questions you have about a stove can be answered in the owners manual. That's not hard fact, that's my experience. Some manuals I have kept as reference books of industry standards, they are that good. Some are weak, and could use some serious help in their writing. The glossy pictures and nice scenes on the sales brochures are meant to entice you to buy. If you want the meat, you have to dig a little. I ask for the OM for lots of things. If I am to the point of purchasing, I'll even buy them if the dealer won't give them (some companies like to cover their costs) that manual tells a lot. It should give you the data you need for the product, where to get more information and how to trouble-shoot problems. It also tells you a lot about the company and what they think about the customer after the purchase. I have not bought products because of bad or non-available manuals. (When you live 350 niles from a dealer and no one else can help, you are on your own)
There is a point at which we must take responsibility for getting the necessary information. IF they won't give it to you, take your business down the road. A lot of folks here have England stoves, their "sellers" frequently are seasonal sellers only, and just clerks. To handle things of a technical nature they have an in house help desk. I don't know their hours, but I am sure it is broad enough to accommodate their customers.
Other companies won't even answer an email. I emailed Kozi on a question about a stove for a customer/friend. Included the model, seriel number and control board number. I got one sentence reply three weeks later. We do not have information for stoves made before our purchase of the company. Same board in the current model, same assembly, same part I wanted to buy. Referred me to a US company who wasn't interested in our business. We got the stove running and put it on the market the next day. He went on a search for a new stove, found one, checked out the company, bought and is now burning. I think he had about 80 or 90 hours in leg work, not counting study time before he bought what he could afford and met his needs.
So, where do you take responsibility? And what is the responsibility of the seller and manufacturer?
once again, I see my Summit as the winner in this scenario: the firebox is square (20" n/s, e/w) get your wood all 18" (and it gives you some wiggle if you cut your own if you plan on 18") and enjoy... the super27 is 18 n/s/ and 15 e/w but that should not deter you, as n/s loading is the way to go, anyway.
Mr. Kelly said:
Not really.
I only seriously looked at Jotuls and PEs and they were both fair up front about firebox dimensions.
Bigg_Redd said:
Interestingly, BR, it was those two companies that I went out to investigate the other day. Neither one have the firebox dimensions, in either cu/ft. or inches, published in their manuals, brochures, or even signage on the top of the unit. Of course, they had every other dimension published, including the physical dimensions of the entire unit, and the exact measurements of the clearances. Just no box sizes. Seems pretty strange.
littlesmokey said:
Great, great job at demolishing a straw man there, guy. I suggest they give new burners some info about what "seasoned wood" means and a few basic tips about burning, not to mention an accurate indication of log size that will fit in the box, and you go on a rant about technical specifications. Way to go.
Write 'em. I suspect they get all kinds of requests.
For some folks the most important thing is what the stove looks like and what color can I get it in. Like cars, stove marketing is inconsistent. Some car makers tout the cubic inches (or liters) of the engine right up front and use it as a bragging right. And other companies bury this info somewhere deep in the back pages of the manual (which is not online).
Many manufacturers do put information about burning in their manuals which are usually posted online. It varies from stove co to stove co but almost all explicitly recommend burning dry seasoned wood. The problem we find here is that many folks never read the manual. For example, here is what Hearthstone has:
"CHOOSING FIREWOOD
Your Heritage Wood Heater is designed to only burn
firewood-also known as cordwood.
The quality of your firewood affects heat output, duration
of burn and performance of your stove. Softwoods
generally burn hotter and faster, while hardwoods burn
longer and produce more coals. Density and moisture
content are two critical factors to consider when purchasing
wood for your stove.
The following is a list of wood species and their relative
BTU (British Thermal Unit) content. The higher the BTU
the longer the burn. Firewood with higher BTUs is
generally considered ideal for a wood stove.
HIGH: Apple, Black Birch, Hickory, Locust, White Oak,
Black Beech, and Mesquite
MEDIUM HIGH: White Ash, Beech, Yellow Birch, Sugar
Maple, and Red Oak
MEDIUM LOW: Black Ash, White Birch, Grey Birch, Elm,
Norway Pine, Pitch Pine, Black Cherry, Soft Maple,
Tamarack
LOW: White Pine, White Cedar, Balsam Fir, Spruce,
Aspen, Basswood, Butternut, Hemlock
Moisture content also plays a key role in the performance of
your stove. Wood freshly cut from a living tree (green
wood) contains a great deal of moisture. As you might
expect, green wood has difficulty burning and should be
seasoned before using it in your wood stove. To properly
season green wood, it should be split, stacked and allowed
to air dry for a period of one year.
Stack the firewood on skids or blocks to keep it off the
ground, cover only the top of the stack. Plastic or tarps that
cover the sides of the woodpile trap moisture and prevent
the wood from drying. As for stacking, an old Vermonter
said, "The spaces between the logs should be large enough
for a mouse to get through, but not for the cat that's chasing
it."
From PE:
"Wood Selection
This heater is designed to burn natural wood only. Higher effi ciency and lower emissions
generally result when burning air-dried seasoned hardwoods, as compared to softwoods
or too green or freshly cut hardwoods.
Wood should be properly air dried (seasoned) for six months or more. Wet or undried wood
will cause the fi re to smoulder and produce large amounts of creosote. Wet wood also
produces very little heat and tends to go out often.
DO NOT BURN :
• Salt water wood *
• Treated wood
• Wet or green wood
• Coal/charcoal
• Garbage/Plastic *
• Solvents
* These materials contain chlorides which will rapidly destroy metal surfaces and
void warranty.
Do not burn anything but wood. Other fuels (eg. charcoal) can produce large amounts of
carbon monoxide, a tasteless, odourless gas that can kill. Under no circumstances should
you attempt to barbecue in this heater.
How to Test Your Wood
Add a large piece of wood to the stove when it has a good large bed of coals. It is dry if it
is burning on more than one side within one minute. It is damp if it turns black and lights
within three minutes. If it sizzles, hisses and blackens without igniting in fi ve minutes it is
soaked and should not be burnt."
Personally I'd like to see manufacturers clearly define what they consider overfiring the stove. Also, more should show where to place a thermometer and what the expected normal range of operating readings will be and what is overfire.
For some folks the most important thing is what the stove looks like and what color can I get it in. Like cars, stove marketing is inconsistent. Some car makers tout the cubic inches (or liters) of the engine right up front and use it as a bragging right. And other companies bury this info somewhere deep in the back pages of the manual (which is not online).
Many manufacturers do put information about burning in their manuals which are usually posted online. It varies from stove co to stove co but almost all explicitly recommend burning dry seasoned wood. The problem we find here is that many folks never read the manual. For example, here is what Hearthstone has:
"CHOOSING FIREWOOD
Your Heritage Wood Heater is designed to only burn
firewood-also known as cordwood.
The quality of your firewood affects heat output, duration
of burn and performance of your stove. Softwoods
generally burn hotter and faster, while hardwoods burn
longer and produce more coals. Density and moisture
content are two critical factors to consider when purchasing
wood for your stove.
The following is a list of wood species and their relative
BTU (British Thermal Unit) content. The higher the BTU
the longer the burn. Firewood with higher BTUs is
generally considered ideal for a wood stove.
HIGH: Apple, Black Birch, Hickory, Locust, White Oak,
Black Beech, and Mesquite
MEDIUM HIGH: White Ash, Beech, Yellow Birch, Sugar
Maple, and Red Oak
MEDIUM LOW: Black Ash, White Birch, Grey Birch, Elm,
Norway Pine, Pitch Pine, Black Cherry, Soft Maple,
Tamarack
LOW: White Pine, White Cedar, Balsam Fir, Spruce,
Aspen, Basswood, Butternut, Hemlock
Moisture content also plays a key role in the performance of
your stove. Wood freshly cut from a living tree (green
wood) contains a great deal of moisture. As you might
expect, green wood has difficulty burning and should be
seasoned before using it in your wood stove. To properly
season green wood, it should be split, stacked and allowed
to air dry for a period of one year.
Stack the firewood on skids or blocks to keep it off the
ground, cover only the top of the stack. Plastic or tarps that
cover the sides of the woodpile trap moisture and prevent
the wood from drying. As for stacking, an old Vermonter
said, "The spaces between the logs should be large enough
for a mouse to get through, but not for the cat that's chasing
it."
From PE:
"Wood Selection
This heater is designed to burn natural wood only. Higher effi ciency and lower emissions
generally result when burning air-dried seasoned hardwoods, as compared to softwoods
or too green or freshly cut hardwoods.
Wood should be properly air dried (seasoned) for six months or more. Wet or undried wood
will cause the fi re to smoulder and produce large amounts of creosote. Wet wood also
produces very little heat and tends to go out often.
DO NOT BURN :
• Salt water wood *
• Treated wood
• Wet or green wood
• Coal/charcoal
• Garbage/Plastic *
• Solvents
* These materials contain chlorides which will rapidly destroy metal surfaces and
void warranty.
Do not burn anything but wood. Other fuels (eg. charcoal) can produce large amounts of
carbon monoxide, a tasteless, odourless gas that can kill. Under no circumstances should
you attempt to barbecue in this heater.
How to Test Your Wood
Add a large piece of wood to the stove when it has a good large bed of coals. It is dry if it
is burning on more than one side within one minute. It is damp if it turns black and lights
within three minutes. If it sizzles, hisses and blackens without igniting in fi ve minutes it is
soaked and should not be burnt."
Personally I'd like to see manufacturers clearly define what they consider overfiring the stove. Also, more should show where to place a thermometer and what the expected normal range of operating readings will be and what is overfire.
littlesmokey said:
Here are my next thoughts on this...
If I was a business owner... (god forbid)... and I was producing products that had the capacity to be aimed toward two different types of clients, both the general public, and a product enthusiast, I think I would do my darnedness to ensure that I'd provide all relevant information that might dispel any mysteries regarding the product. I just think that makes good business sense.
For sure, the dealers could be left on their own to fend for themselves to provide information that folks might need that the manufacturer hasn't made easily available, but that places too much of the control of the direction of the sale of that product in the hands and whims of dealers, and not as much about the merit of the product, or the manufacturer and its marketing & PR. Would I want that, as a manufacturer? Not at all. A reckless dealer that's ill equipped can wreak havoc on a product.
The place I visited a couple of days ago advertised being a Jotul, PE, and Avalon dealer. Since I wanted to see all 3 of these products, I hiked over there. They have reasonable product demos of Jotuls and PEs, but NOT ONE AVALON ANYWHERE IN THE STORE!! (more on that in a bit) So, given that there were no dimensions given for any product, nor did the sales guy offer any, I pulled out my measuring tape and went to town. To me, as a manufacturer, this would make me very nervous, as the power of the sale is now solely in the hands of the consumer, and less with a well-trained dealer, and none with me, the manufacturer (since I didn't provide all the info in my marketing brochures). The dealer should be equipped by the manufacturer and ready to provide all information that is likely to aid in making a sale, which would be beneficial to all parties. In this way, if my sales as a manufacturer were suffering, it would likely be due to something else other than ill-equipped dealers.
Not sure I agree with the thought that too much detail-oriented information would "overwhelm" the general non-enthusiast public. I'm betting companies like PE and Jotul thrive on the sales that have been generated by enthusiasts, and this is the sector that wants to see all relevant info. Why not provide it to them, in some form... somewhere?
Regarding the Avalons - Given that other dealers locally have Avalons on the floor, I suspected that this particular dealer not having any Avalons had nothing to do with them not being able to acquire the product. My guess is that they simply choose to push the other lines. Additionally, the guy wasn't at all interested in even TALKING about Avalon products (clearly because he couldn't sell me one), or provide any of the comparative information, such as firebox size. In my opinion, with some sales background, this is poor sales, and detrimental to a company like Travis, who deserves to be properly represented.
If I was the manufacturer of Travis (hope you're reading), I'd be pulling my contract with a dealer like this, and find one locally that will support the product. Similarly, if I were a company like Jotul, or PE, I'd be offering my dealers AND public every opportunity to get their hands on all relevant information - particularly useful "data" like firebox size.
Hey guys what do you say we take it back over to the hearth for Turkey sandwiches and pumpkin pie. This guy's a shill for a stove store or maker and I've had my fun, I'd like a little more T-Day.
BeGreen said:
This is in your Heritage manual? Sure ain't in my Tribute's. What you've quoted here is, just what I had in mind, and if it had been in my manual, I likely never would have ended up here on Hearth.com desperately looking for help. Truly.
As a Hearthstone owner, I couldn't possibly agree with you more about the overfiring issue, which we've had some baffling roundabouts on here in the last year or so.
Laying all the should, would, and could aside, as none of us on here likely can change the whole marketplace, why not cut a good size plit you'd be likely to load (or better yet, take a pile like you would stuff assuming a load of ash and coals on the bottom), and try loading your top picks? Isn't that what it really comes down to, how the stove will work for you and your wood preference? I'd love it if every product manufacturer listed the info that I was interested in - but everyone's interests vary and I've come to the conclusion it's easier to check myself for stuff that matters to me. That way there's no one to blame but myself it I get it wrong...! Happy turkey all, another beverage awaits!
BeGreen said:
Having looked at quite a few online owner manuals I was interested to note that Osburn has the following:
CAUTION: DO NOT OVER FIRE THIS HEATER. Do not burn fuel in the stove at a rate higher
than that which will cause the ember bed level to exceed half the door opening height. If
burning hot fires regularly, purchase a stovetop thermometer, and do not exceed 840o F
(450o C) as measured on the Cook top. If the door handle of the stove becomes excessively
hot to the touch, consider this to be an indication of over firing.
Kudos to Osburn for being this specific. I use it as a guide for my new stove
Mr. Kelly said:
Actually, the PE firebox size info is on the product overview pg (should be pg's 4 & 18) in the brochure (the pg just before it describes ea one individually). Look where it says "Small", Medium", "Large" on the left of the pg (it's at the bottom section of each of the three segmented rows and says 1.5, 2.1, and 3.0 Cubic feet respectfully). The weight was listed in the old brochure (when they had the "Pacific" insert) but isn't listed in the new brochure (although I believe it went from 320lbs to 410lbs). I don't know about the Jotul.
Dude, Mr. Kelly, at some point you have to sh!t or get off the pot - ie, grab some and pick a stove. At the end of the day, it is a glorified wood burning radiator, jeez. You just pick the best one that fits your needs and you move on. I can promise you that you are better off burning a pretty good stove than none at all. Analysis Paralysis. You will never find the holy grail perfect stove. They all have their pros and cons.
I'll throw another wrench in your decision making - think about resale value. This played a big part in my decision making process. I bought a brand that is widely known and respected. If you look at the classifieds, Jotul stoves hold their value better than most.
FYI, they have Avalon's on the floor in Littleton, but I don't think you will like them ;^)
I'll throw another wrench in your decision making - think about resale value. This played a big part in my decision making process. I bought a brand that is widely known and respected. If you look at the classifieds, Jotul stoves hold their value better than most.
FYI, they have Avalon's on the floor in Littleton, but I don't think you will like them ;^)
cycloxer said:
Clearly, you've been paying attention to my meandering journey of craziness. We'll, I did have one picked out, until my lower than clearance ceiling height dilemma (an earlier post) for the Lopi I had picked. That limitation precipitated others on here to suggest looking at other brands, and that's what I've been doing for the past 10 days. Plus, I've been awaiting a meeting w. the building inspector, so I've been in little hurry. By the time I get a stove in here, my 3 cords of partially seasoned wood will be calling out to me to get burning!
The good news... though... I ordered a stove today! I ordered a PE Summit. Hurray! It may be a bit large for my sq.ft., but better larger that colder. It's scheduled to be installed a week from Monday. Then I need the inspection.
So, yes, the pot is full, so-to-speak. Feels good, eh?
Awesome. Pacific Energy makes an excellent stove. Their efficiency ratings are some of the highest in the industry. A friend at work drools over their stoves and he could not undestand why I bought a Jotul.
If you plumb the PE properly and operate it properly, it will treat you well. Well done.
If you plumb the PE properly and operate it properly, it will treat you well. Well done.
53flyer said:
I'm still not able to find that brochure online. Is it a dealer brochure? Online, I can only find brochures pertaining to each stove, but not a full product line brochure.
cycloxer said:
Thanks! I'm hoping we'll be nice and toasty... and HAPPY!!
I also looked at and considered a Jotul. It was the first stove that intrigued me. Knowing how my wood will likely be commercially split and delivered, at least for the next season or two, I couldn't fathom how I'd fully utilize the nice long box the Oslo has. Plus, the ornateness of the Jotuls outclass our old farmhouse! Our house has nothing fancy in it at all, from an architectural perspective. It's an old farm house, how fancy can it be? They did everything they could to be economical in this house over the years. No fancy trim, no fancy woodwork anywhere. Everything's PLAIN. The Jotuls have this nice European style thing going which I've always really liked.... It would just stick out like a sore thumb in our house. So, The steel stoves seem to fit the decor of our plain house fairly well! Square and boring! So much for style!
Anyway, I'll keep you posted when the rest of the action goes down.
cycloxer said:
The Summit. Big beast, plain, square, black. Like an old steam locomotive. Nothin' fancy, but will get the cargo where it needs to go.
I actually got the idea for a box like this from reading on here. A dealer on here was describing how he initially couldn't get people to take a look at PEs, even though they are well regarded on here, and by enthusiasts. He said he eventually would sell people on the stoves by the fact that you could get a larger-sized box PE for not much more than you could get the medium-sized Lopi, which is the stove I was originally was sold on. So, that made me think... "hmmm. Maybe a bigger box for not much more money??? Seems like a good possibility".
Whoever you were who wrote this post from weeks ago... Thank you! We'll be bowing to you when the PE is firing up!
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