Advice please - Is a wood burning insert a good choice?

[zknowlto]

Hello All:

My wife and recently bought a house with a fireplace we would like to get into working order (right now it has no chimney liner and the glass doors that are falling off). Initially, we expected to install a new damper and doors to have a functioning, open fireplace. After looking online at energy efficiency and the EPA tax credits, however, we began considering a wood burning insert. We live in the city and would most likely have to buy most of our firewood. Additionally, we were thinking about burning fires, maybe, a couple times a week, and, hence, don't intend to use this as our primary heating source. Our house is around 1700 sqft, but we would both be satisfied with a model that heats our living room and part of the downstairs, maybe 800 sq/ft in all.

We've consulted two dealers so far. One recommended the Avalon Rainier (http://www.avalonfirestyles.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=254). The other said that we'd be unhappy with the effort, inconsistent temperatures, and maintenance of a wood burning insert and tried to sell us new doors, and a heat reflector. Specifically, my questions are:

1) How much maintenance is involved in a wood burning insert?

2) Are wood burning inserts OK for occasional use, or should they really be viewed as a replacement for natural gas furnaces?

3) Our house has a relatively closed floor plan and the room where the fireplace is located is just over 200 sqft. Should we be worried about an insert overheating this area?

Thanks to everyone in advance for your advice!

 

[Hogwildz]

Hello All:

My wife and recently bought a house with a fireplace we would like to get into working order (right now it has no chimney liner and the glass doors that are falling off). Initially, we expected to install a liner, damper, and doors to have a functioning, open fireplace. After looking online at energy efficiency and the EPA tax credits, however, we began considering a wood burning insert. We live in the city and would most likely have to buy most of our firewood. Additionally, e were thinking about burning fires maybe a couple times a week, and, hence, don't intend to use this as our primary heating source. Our house is around 1700 sqft, but we would both be satisfied with a model that heats our living room and part of the downstairs, maybe 800 sq/ft in all.

We've consulted two dealers so far. One recommended the Avalon Rainier (http://www.avalonfirestyles.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=254). The other said that we'd be unhappy with the effort, inconsistent temperatures, and maintenance of a wood burning insert and tried to sell us new doors, and a heat reflector. Specifically, my questions are:

1) How much maintenance is involved in a wood burning insert?
IMO, no more than an open fireplace, and the heat will not go up the chimney like with an open fireplace. It is easier to clean and less mess if you reline the chimney from isnert to the top. Sweep down with the door(s) closed, and scoop out when done.

2) Are wood burning inserts OK for occasional use, or should they really be viewed as a replacement for natural gas furnaces?
That is up to you, and your use of it. It can be for occasional use, or as with some & myself, it heats my home 24/7.

3) Our house has a relatively closed floor plan and the room where the fireplace is located is just over 200 sqft. Should we be worried about an insert overheating this area?
is a small area, but you can try and move cooler air with box fan(s) from other areas of the home to displace the heated air in the room with cooler air from other areas.
You can also burn smaller fires. Worse case scenario, you can crack a window open.

Thanks to everyone in advance for your advice!

 

[zknowlto]

Wow! Thanks for the fast reply! Does anyone have a specific recommendation for a small insert that would work for our situation?

 

[Slow1]

1) I'm a free standing stove sort, but I can't imagine the insert is much different. There really isn't a whole lot of maintenance required. True you need to take care of your chimney - but you need to do that if you are burning your fireplace too - with an efficient stove installed and burned properly you are going to have a cleaner chimney for a given amount of wood burned in most cases. Other than that I suppose an insert is likely to have a fan or two - those may require service if they fail and if you have a cat model then you will have to blow/brush the ash off the cat every cord or so of wood (depends on the model). Still not a whole lot of work really.

2) Ok for occasional use? Well.. I'm sure they are, but I expect you will find it addictive once you learn how to burn in it and enjoy the heat. You will sit there and realize that it can heat your whole house (or darn near it) and wonder why you are buying oil/gas/electric. This is particularly true if you discover you enjoy processing wood.. the addiction is what you need to watch out for.

3) Now this is a good one. What doors do you have to this room? is it on the first floor? near the stairs? The key is having a path for the hot air to move out and cold air to move in if it is to circulate. The other approach is to get an insert that can burn cooler (i.e. a smaller unit or a cat model) What you don't want to do is try to choke the fire down to the point that it starts smoking because it is too hot in the room.

Whatever you decide - keep the fireplace or put a stove in - you need to make sure you have really dry wood so I hope you have already secured your supply for this next season.

 

[Hogwildz]

Wow! Thanks for the fast reply! Does anyone have a specific recommendation for a small insert that would work for our situation?

Research the review section here, research the manufacturers websites, and stop at several local dealers to get an idea of what you like.
Narrow it down to 2 or 3, sit down with your significant other, and choose. Make sure of the fireplace opening , depth, width & height dimensions, as this too might dictate what you have to choose from as to what fits in the box.

 

[Dix]

A floor plan of the house would be really, really good here.

And pics of the hearth area, and the hearth & fireplace measurements.

Welcome to the forums

 

[gibson]

I agree with one of the above posters. No matter what you do, you are going to have to pay premium price for genuinely "seasoned" wood. At the same time buy your wood now for next year. So yes, you will have to shell out some dough for wood. Probably 3 cords of good seasoned wood and 3 cords of the other stuff. The seasoned wood is going to be tough, because what many pass off as seasoned is not at all seasoned. It could cost as much as $300 a cord for really good stuff. I buy unseasoned at $150 a cord, one year ahead, usually in March. The first year you have to make sure what you buy is seasoned, enlist help if you have to. If you are getting an insert you will burn less wood and be warmer and get an obama credit. Buy the insert now, thank me later. Remember, if you are serious. Wood now, stove later. Enjoy.

 

[madrone]

welcome! The avalon seems about right for your space. You may never run it with a full load, but when you get hooked, it will heat you whole house. Just as easy to use maintain as a fireplace, as long as the wood is truly seasoned. Burn smaller loads if you get too hot. You don't need 6 cords for this winter if you're occasional users. Buy 2, but be prepared to fall in love and need more next year.

The other said that we'd be unhappy with the effort, inconsistent temperatures, and maintenance of a wood burning insert and tried to sell us new doors, and a heat reflector.

This is silly. Fireplaces are consistent only in that they consistently remove all the warm air your furnace just produced.

 

[karl]

With that small of a room, you might look into a catylitic insert. They can burn at a lower temperature than an non cat and still give you a long burn.

When you see how much heat EPA inserts, both cats and non cats put out, you will be burning more than a few times a week.

 

[They Call Me Pete]

I have the Avalon 90 insert and it has heated my 1400 sq ft house for two winters with the exception of our bed room at other end of the house. I put a blower on it to compensate for it being inserted 3/4 into fireplace.

It's the perfect stove style(steel) for occasional use. It will heat up fast and especially if your only looking to heat up around 200 sq ft. You could come home from work and have it nice and toasty in no time.

Any overheating issues would be resolved with a fan to move heat around/to other rooms or just don't make a big fire but will have to maintain temps to prevent cresole build up.

 

[zknowlto]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone. My fireplace opening is 34" wide by 26" high. The depth is 19" and the width at the back of the fireplace is 25".


This is our approximate floor plan. The only major difference is that there is an addition on the back of the house, a large den of around 350 sqft with entrances from the downstairs bedroom and kitchen.

This a picture of the living room, shot from our dining room

And this is a shot of the fireplace

Also, does anyone think going with a smaller stove (like the Avalon Pendleton for example) would maybe be a good option?

Thanks again!

 

[Pagey]

That looks like a beautiful room for an insert! I think that once you got accustomed to the heat you'd get with a good EPA certified insert, you'd do more than just the occasional burning. There really is nothing like the radiant heat you get from a wood stove.

 

[kalevi]

I've got a similar arrangement except my fireplace with insert is at the end of the living room. I have a PE Vista insert. It makes the whole space toasty warm. If you are not going to be using the insert as your primary heat source, the Vista or something similar would work fine. Make sure you buy either kiln dried or truly dried firewood now if you want to burn this winter. Get a moisture meter from Harbor Freight to check the wood you are buying to make sure it is below 20% moisture content.

 

[begreen]

Your on the right track looking at inserts. The other dealer appears to be less than helpful.

It seems like one of the most frequent complaints here outside of damp wood, is burning in a too small stove. In Michigan, I would recommend getting no smaller than an insert with a 2 cu ft firebox. It will give you more flexibility and will really be appreciated when the temps get close to zero.

The Rainier is a decent, almost bulletproof insert. It works reasonably well in power outages. If you like this insert, I think it would be fine.

 

[Dix]

I totally agree on the bigger box.

I think with the bigger box, you are going to be able to heat more of that house than you think you can right now. The den, and that back bedroom on the 1st floor might be an issue, but other that that, you'll be surprised, I think.

Any ceiling fans in this house? If not one can use a box fan, or 2.

 

[firefighterjake]

You're already a step ahead of a lot of folks who think that they can heat their home with a fireplace . . . about the only thing a fireplace is good for today is for the ambiance . . . well that and you can hang your stockings above the fireplace on the mantel for Santa. And if the truth be told there are many good looking inserts that can still provide great ambiance . . . and you can still hang the stockings on the mantel.

Saying that inserts are more work and provide inconsistent heat is ludicrous . . . I mean sure they may be more work as you will have to clean out the ashes more regularly and check the chimney and clean it on a regular basis once you begin regularly using the insert to heat your home vs. just using the fireplace once or twice a month for the ambiance. . . . As far as inconsistent heat? . . . Seems like most inserts have blowers which can help move the heat throughout the room . . . and well placed fans can move the heat through the whole home. I'm sorry, but I'm still baffled about what the salesman said.

Personally I think this is a great time to be anyone who is looking at heating with wood or pellets as the tax break is certainly a big draw. As I said, I think you have really thought this out . . . you have seen the tax credits, you realize that you will most likely have to buy wood (although some city dwellers are pretty good wood scoungers) and you believe you will mostly use this as supplemental heating and will not be attempting to heat your entire home. All well thought out . . .

That said, I suspect you will either a) start heating with wood and love the experience (and the heat) so much that your occasional fires will become more more regular and you will eventually consider heating your entire home with the insert (which may be possible) or b) you will start heating with wood and not like the experience (there are some drawbacks after all -- the mess, there is some work to maintain the stove and chimney, etc.)

As far as your specific questions.

1) How much maintenance is involved in a wood burning insert? Using and maintaining an insert shouldn't be much more work than using and maintaining a fireplace . . . other than the fact that I believe you will be using the insert a lot more often.

2) Are wood burning inserts OK for occasional use, or should they really be viewed as a replacement for natural gas furnaces? It's whatever you want it to be . . . if you want to heat 24/7 with an insert you can do so . . . or you can use it for those nights when it's really cold or when you want to have a little ambiance in the room with a nice fire.

3) Our house has a relatively closed floor plan and the room where the fireplace is located is just over 200 sqft. Should we be worried about an insert overheating this area? It will get warm in the room . . . especially if you over-size the insert . . . but you can use fans to help move the heat throughout the home so that you're not in a situation where it's 89 degrees in one room and 57 degrees in another room.

 

[Wet1]

You've already been given some good advice so far... Get your wood yesterday! Get a larger insert than you think you might need. You can always burn a small fire in a large stove, but you cant build a big fire in a small stove. Burning wood is addicting. You say you'll use it once or twice now, but there's a very real chance you'll want to go 24/7 (or close to it) in the future... in which case you'll be much happier with a larger insert. Over heating that room shouldn't be much of an issue as long as you can move the air around. You have an archway in the living room and it looks like there might be another opening going into the hall across from the fireplace as well (?), so you should easily be able to move that warm air throughout the house.

I'd personally look at the Blaze King Princess Insert. I'm a huge fan of their catalytic stoves. Being a cat stove, they can be dialed way down, or turned up to easily heat your entire house. The cat will save wood, and you can easily get all night or all day burns out of a single load should you want to go 24/7.

Did I mention to get your wood yesterday??? Make sure the wood will fit in whatever you're considering buying... 16" to 18" is the normal size, but that might not fit in a small insert should you (foolishly) decide to go that route.

Best of luck

 

[granpajohn]

On the Occasional Use question:

If you have an exterior, (i.e. cold), chimney; It is possible that the insert will backpuff (smoke into the room) on startup in situations where the open FP never did. This is because the FP is always sucking a little bit of warmth up, or is at least neutral. There are ways to deal with this. I would not let that stop you from installing the insert.

The traditional rolled up newspaper torch in the open chimney worked great for the open FP, but not for the insert. If the stove has been allowed to go cold, (i.e. "occasional use"), I have to reverse the draft with a little blower I devised from an old hair dryer. But that is all in a different thread. Just trying to warn you and recommend you build that insert and don't look back.

 

[Dix]

Is that downstairs bedroom a bedroom? Or is it something else?

 

[Hiram Maxim]

Well You shouldn't have a problem finding wood around Lansing......Your surrounded by woods and farms! ;-)

Like others have said you will be much happier,warmer, and in all honesty, safer going with an insert and a ss liner.

 

[zknowlto]

Again, thank you everyone for the advice! I've started researching the purchase of firewood and plan on making a deal sometime this week. On the insert front, my wife thought the the Avalon "stuck out" too much and was little too "Little House on the Prairie-ish". We visited another dealer this weekend who wanted to sell us the Vermont Castings Winterwarm or VC Montpelier. I'm pretty sure we're going to go with one of these models, but we're still a little up in the air over which one. Right now I'm leaning towards the WW.

Winterwarm (http://tinyurl.com/nvm9rt)
Pros: It's smaller size and catalytic, meaning we could most likely avoid the overheating scenario we were warned about, slightly more efficient
Cons: After reading the discussion on this topic, it might be too small

Montpelier (http://tinyurl.com/mgvbtw)
Pros: Would definitely be better if we plan to heat the whole house, we like the appearance slightly better
Cons: Still a little concerned about temperature regulation, slightly more expensive

Doing: In response to your question about the downstairs "bedroom", it's actually a little office. I'm sitting there now.

 

[Dix]

Again, thank you everyone for the advice! I've started researching the purchase of firewood and plan on making a deal sometime this week. On the insert front, my wife thought the the Avalon "stuck out" too much and was little too "Little House on the Prairie-ish". We visited another dealer this weekend who wanted to sell us the Vermont Castings Winterwarm or VC Montpelier. I'm pretty sure we're going to go with one of these models, but we're still a little up in the air over which one. Right now I'm leaning towards the WW.

Winterwarm (http://tinyurl.com/nvm9rt)
Pros: It's smaller size and catalytic, meaning we could most likely avoid the overheating scenario we were warned about, slightly more efficient
Cons: After reading the discussion on this topic, it might be too small

Montpelier (http://tinyurl.com/mgvbtw)
Pros: Would definitely be better if we plan to heat the whole house, we like the appearance slightly better
Cons: Still a little concerned about temperature regulation, slightly more expensive

Doing: In response to your question about the downstairs "bedroom", it's actually a little office. I'm sitting there now.

They call me Dixie or Eileen, amongst a few other things

My thought for asking was....if you opened that wall between the living room and the down stairs bedroom, you'd get a whole new world of possibilities. Then you'd have a "loop".

 

[begreen]

Visit some other dealers and read up a bit on VC before deciding. There are other choices like Hampton and Jotul that should be included in the looksee.

 

[chad3]

Neighbor picked up a Jotul insert last year. He has been very happy and can't believe the differences. Remember, it is a learning curve, you will have times that it is way to hot in the house and times that the fire smolders and dies. Work through it and with good wood you will get the hang of it and be very happy.
Chad

 

[firefighterjake]

Visit some other dealers and read up a bit on VC before deciding. There are other choices like Hampton and Jotul that should be included in the looksee.

Agreed . . . do a search on Vermont Castings here and check out some of the stove reviews for the models you are considering. Personally, I would shy away from VC models right now . . .