Add-on Wood Boiler

[S.Whiplash]

No, there's no possible way I'll get a decent boiler and storage under 7k. Actually, if I paid asking price for the boiler and the 820gal storage I would only be at $6300. If I did use the boiler I was hoping I could make up the $300 between it or the storage tank and be in it for 6K. I have about 150ft distance to where it would be placed and if the piping is $8.50/ft that'll add $1275. Only other major cost is the other htx and the glycol.

Btw, since I have a ranch style house with an unfinished basement I would likely add some pex under the main floor for radiant heat in case my base board emitters are not enough.

Hate to break it to you but underground insulated pex at $8.50/ft. is either a very good deal or the quality is questionable. I would avoid the bubble wrapped pipe at any cost.

 

[Bad LP]

I'm 3 days into the installation. I'm doing the electric side in EMT and BX for the pumps running back into the generator panel while the 2 guys are doing the piping. Had to move the whole LP fired boiler arrangement around, remove prior wood stove, cut off manifolds and attach to a wall board, flue pipes, 2 300 gallon tanks, set the wood boiler on blocks to get it off the floor, set 2 300 ASME rated vertical gallon tanks on blocks to make room for insulation below them, double check then triple check the diagrams as we go, ect. ect.

3 days in so far. 2 more to go.

I think I want to puke at the cost of this project and doing it right. I don't know any other way than by the book.
Not sure I'll live long enough for the pay back unless LP comes up to almost 4.00 a gallon again.

 

[NateB]

No, there's no possible way I'll get a decent boiler and storage under 7k. Actually, if I paid asking price for the boiler and the 820gal storage I would only be at $6300. If I did use the boiler I was hoping I could make up the $300 between it or the storage tank and be in it for 6K. I have about 150ft distance to where it would be placed and if the piping is $8.50/ft that'll add $1275. Only other major cost is the other htx and the glycol.

Btw, since I have a ranch style house with an unfinished basement I would likely add some pex under the main floor for radiant heat in case my base board emitters are not enough.

Glycol is not necessary. The boiler will turn on its circulator pump if it gets too cold, and if your oil boiler is on that will keep it warm.

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[Marshy]

Hate to break it to you but underground insulated pex at $8.50/ft. is either a very good deal or the quality is questionable. I would avoid the bubble wrapped pipe at any cost.

Again, another thing that I have barely begun to research. I just found a $8.5-10 cost per foot when cruising the forum. I plan to buy the appropriate stuff.

Glycol is not necessary. The boiler will turn on its circulator pump if it gets too cold, and if your oil boiler is on that will keep it warm.
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The idea was to be able to shut down the boiler and walk away from it in the middle of winter if I was going to be away for a few days and not waste fuel oil on keeping the entire system warm. Rather, isolate the storage tank and wood boiler from the oil boiler and let the oil heat just like it's installed now.

 

[goosegunner]

Have my Econoburn and storage in a remote shed that is insulated. My underground is buried below the frost line and both ends come up into heated space. We have traveled in the winter for 7-9 days with no problems. I heat the tank before we leave, shut off the pump to the house and turn on the electric base board in the boiler shed. The tank is usually still in the 145 range when we return.

 

[NateB]

I would encourage you to try and get your storage into the basement. The oil to keep the boiler at 45f would not be that much.

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[Marshy]

I would encourage you to try and get your storage into the basement. The oil to keep the boiler at 45f would not be that much.

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That is my goal. I have the perfect place for the 820 gal tank in my basement.

 

[NateB]

When you out that tank in make sure you have an inch or 2 insulation between the floor and any walls. Tom has some YouTube videos for installation

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[JohnDolz]

I want to get the wood and fire out of the house, my wife and daughter have allergies. I have a 12x15 tool shed that I can turn into a boiler she'd. My idea was to get an indoor type boiler and install it in the shed with future plans on attaching a 24x32 ish sized garage. I might only enclose a portion of that footprint though and would like in for heat.

I can share a few quick thoughts based on my experience. The guys here will tell you that I am a sales guy who has minimal data to support my thinking, just experience and gut feel:

1. This project will cost a lot more than you are estimating
2. If you balance the size of the boiler with the storage everything else will take care of itself (i.e. if both are oversized it just means more time between fires - plus some heat loss since they are not in the actual house).
3. I have a 60kw boiler that is rated at 205,000 BTU's and 1,000 gallon storage. Even when their is no call for heat (i.e. when I setback at night) my storage can absorb all of the energy produced as long as the top of my top tank is down in the low 150's or below.
4. If you use Outdoor reset to mix your supply water you will get great efficiency and be able to run your tanks way down between firings. I have regular old baseboard that came with the house, regularly run my tanks down to under 120 and keep my house at 72 degrees. If you are interested there are a bunch of posts/discussions around this
5. I try to minimize the # of fires so I let the tank temps drop way down and then just throw another 1/2 load of wood in at some point

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Marshy]

I can share a few quick thoughts based on my experience. The guys here will tell you that I am a sales guy who has minimal data to support my thinking, just experience and gut feel:

1. This project will cost a lot more than you are estimating
2. If you balance the size of the boiler with the storage everything else will take care of itself (i.e. if both are oversized it just means more time between fires - plus some heat loss since they are not in the actual house).
3. I have a 60kw boiler that is rated at 205,000 BTU's and 1,000 gallon storage. Even when their is no call for heat (i.e. when I setback at night) my storage can absorb all of the energy produced as long as the top of my top tank is down in the low 150's or below.
4. If you use Outdoor reset to mix your supply water you will get great efficiency and be able to run your tanks way down between firings. I have regular old baseboard that came with the house, regularly run my tanks down to under 120 and keep my house at 72 degrees. If you are interested there are a bunch of posts/discussions around this
5. I try to minimize the # of fires so I let the tank temps drop way down and then just throw another 1/2 load of wood in at some point

Hope this helps a bit.

All of that makes sense except I don't know what "outdoor reset" to mix the water supply means. Is that where you mix the returning water to keep the boiler return flow temp from going below 140? I will do some searching. I was thinking of purchasing Modern Hydronic Heating for Residential and Light Commercial Buildings by John Siegenthaler.

 

[maple1]

No, it's mixing on the distribution side that varies supply temps with outdoor temps. The aim being having constantly circulating water and even room temps by varying the supply temp.

 

[JohnDolz]

All of that makes sense except I don't know what "outdoor reset" to mix the water supply means. Is that where you mix the returning water to keep the boiler return flow temp from going below 140? I will do some searching. I was thinking of purchasing Modern Hydronic Heating for Residential and Light Commercial Buildings by John Siegenthaler.

If you read John's PDF that is listed in the "Sticky Threads" you will see where he talks about using low temperature water. As part of that topic he talks about using emitters that are specifically designed for low temperature water. No doubt they would be better than standard baseboard but there would be a large price tag (for me) to swap out emitters. I have been able to heat my house to my desired temperature with the old baseboards by running an almost constant flow of low temperature water at a very low volume.

Here is a link to a page that lists Outoor Reset devices that can complement any boiler/storage system. I do NOT have one of these (mine is build into my boiler controller) but one of the guys on Hearth recently installed one and was very pleased with his results:

(broken link removed to https://store.tarmusa.com/collections/mixing-valve-controllers)

 

[Marshy]

Thanks for the info. I envision this project evolving long term. I would like to incorporate all of those type of technologies but it might not be in the first year or two. I will make sure the system has the necessary hardware installed so I can plug and play with these different "adders". If the current baseboard heaters don't cut the mustard I can always add pex to the underside of my floors. That's just one option vs replacing my baseboard emitters or doing a low volume low temp circulation like you described.

I have a lot to learn, I don't have a large background in controls but would like to think I'm a fast learner. Most of this is my first time being exposed to it.

 

[JohnDolz]

Thanks for the info. I envision this project evolving long term. I would like to incorporate all of those type of technologies but it might not be in the first year or two. I will make sure the system has the necessary hardware installed so I can plug and play with these different "adders". If the current baseboard heaters don't cut the mustard I can always add pex to the underside of my floors. That's just one option vs replacing my baseboard emitters or doing a low volume low temp circulation like you described.

I have a lot to learn, I don't have a large background in controls but would like to think I'm a fast learner. Most of this is my first time being exposed to it.

No worries marshy. When I started this I could barely screw in a light bulb (I am not much beyond that now). I had someone install my system an I was planning to trust him infinitely. We had an upgrade to a bigger boiler planned after year 1 (long story) and sadly he passed away which left me with an undersized boiler in my house and an bugger size boiler sitting in a warehouse. Luckily the manufacturer in Sweden was awesome in helping me and I was forced to learn a few things along the way. Not sure where in NY you are but I am in Central CT, you are always welcome to come for a visit, see my layout if you think it might help you in your planning. Good luck!

 

[Marshy]

OK, so I got a little help from @Chris Hoskin on a recommended boiler/storage tie to my existing system. I took what he gave me and drew my system and how it would interact with the boiler system. This is what I came up with...

Only thing I'm unsure about is if I need the C1 circulator pump or not.

Existing system is in black, in red would be new installation.

 

[Marshy]

If anyone is following, my diagram is drawn wrong. Don't use that.

Anyways, I'll have time to get that straightened out while I wait for my boiler to come in. I bit the bullet and put a down payment on a Froling FHG 20/30. It will be paired with a 820 gallon American Solartechnics tank with a 100k BTU/hr htx.

 

[Highbeam]

If anyone is following, my diagram is drawn wrong. Don't use that.

Anyways, I'll have time to get that straightened out while I wait for my boiler to come in. I bit the bullet and put a down payment on a Froling FHG 20/30. It will be paired with a 820 gallon American Solartechnics tank with a 100k BTU/hr htx.

Nice! Please document the project and costs. That's a great setup!

 

[NateB]

I have a very similar setup to you, but I have and EKO 40 and I use primary secondary plumbing. I also bought a heat pump water heater from Tom. I recommend you tell Tom to through one on your skid before he ships it out. Are you going to do the plumbing yourself?

 

[Marshy]

My existing hydronic system has an indirect 40 gallon DWH tank that I can use with the boiler/storage system and I have a GE Geospring stand-alone water heater that has been my primary for the last 3-4 years. I suspect that I will continue to use the GE through the summer when it makes less sense to fire the boiler. If I ever get solar I can heat the storage and maybe get rid of the GE.

I plan to do the installation myself. I plan to construct a 8x12 insulated building detached from the house but within 30' of the storage.

 

[NateB]

Make sure you get a good torch. I went with a cheap nozzle, and had leaks. bought a better torch, and it went much smoother.

You can heat storage with the heat pump from Tom.

I got the best price for fittings from supply house.

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[Highbeam]

You can heat storage with the heat pump from Tom.

That heat pump from Tom. I would love to see a thread about the installation and hiccups. I have 1800 SF of slab with pex in it but no boiler, the heat pump would be perfect in my climate. Please????

 

[Fred61]

Make sure you get a good torch. I went with a cheap nozzle, and had leaks. bought a better torch, and it went much smoother.

You can heat storage with the heat pump from Tom.

I got the best price for fittings from supply house.

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Usually the first reason for leaks is prep of the surfaces. The second reason is not the nozzle so much but uneven heating of the joint. Directing the flame at one point, expecting the heat to conduct around the tubing will burn the Flux so the solder will not flow in that overheated area.

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[NateB]

I agree. My nozzle was so slow that I always had a cool spot, and the award location of the joints would make me rush and the result were poor. With the higher temperature I could get the joint up to temp and have the solder flow more quickly.

I wish I could find some one to learn from, but everyone I know is to busy. Thanks for your tips. The guys on hear are always a great help.

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[Marshy]

The GE Geospring hot water heater is a stand alone heat pump/water heater. The heat pump that works similarly to a window air conditioner but rejects the heat into the water tank. It's not a ground thermal couple heat pump...

Thanks for the tips on sweating. I don't have a ton of experience doing it but have some. I think I'll buy a nice little map gas torch.

 

[Fred61]

Be careful with mapp. It's hot. Overheating will anneal the copper and shorten it's life. Not good especially at an ell where there's the most friction.

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