Replace Old Defiant with Oslo or 600 Firelight?

[formula_pilot]

Hi Guys, have been reading this site almost daily for months and have learned so much, Thanks!

The wife and I are currently debating replacing our current Vermont Casting Defiant II 1975 with a modern stove, due to the tax incentives. The stove is the centerpiece of the family room, so looks are a high priority to the wife, but whatever we get has to be reliable and easy to operate. We are down to three choices, Jotul Oslo or the 600 Firelight, or VC 1610 Defiant non-cat, leaning towards the Jotuls for ease of operation.

I like the size of the 600 and the bigger firebox, but my concern is that stove might bake us out of the house. It has a wopping 81,500 BTU rating! Does it “turn down” ok? On milder days, even the Old Defiant was a bit much for the room, I found I was turning it down too much and making creosote, and I think I read somewhere it was rated around 60,000 BTUs, so going to 81,500 would be overkill if it does not turn down OK.

Do the Jotuls run OK with the air turned down?

Any input here is appreaciated.
Thanks

 

[Battenkiller]

On milder days, even the Old Defiant was a bit much for the room, I found I was turning it down too much and making creosote, and I think I read somewhere it was rated around 60,000 BTUs.

Defiants have roasted many folks out of their homes. I think 60,000 BTU is very conservative for that stove compared to others of the same rating. It's a big ass stove and throws tons of heat.

I'm sure the 600 will burn a lot cleaner than a Defiant when shut way down, but I'm a big believer in matching your stove to the heating requirements you will see 90% of the time, not trying to have one that will cover your worst case heating scenario. You'll get better and more efficient burns from a stove that is operating toward the upper end of its heat output most of the time. Many folks here are using the Oslo for 24/7 burning and seem very happy. Unless your home is huge, you might consider leaning toward the Oslo.

 

[firefighterjake]

Welcome to the site . . . if you've got questions about wood heat this is the place.

To answer your question better it would help if we knew the size of the room, size of the home, rough lay-out of the home and style of home (open vs. closed design) . . . and the all-important how much insulation/how good are your windows info.

I am a big believer in figuring out your need based on the stove's square footage rating . . . and then going up one size larger . . . but this doesn't always apply to everyone since as mentioned in the sentence above there are other factors to consider.

A few miscellaneous items . . .

If you go with a Jotul I would go with an enamel one . . . the blue black models are quite popular.

I would personally steer away from a VC right now . . . too many unknowns . . . if you do a search you'll see they have had past issues with quality control, not honoring warrantees, etc.

Finally, as for "turning down the heat" . . . it's important to note that with the newer woodstoves (unlike the old air-tights) turning down the air control will most often result in more heat as you are sending less heat up the chimney and allowing the fire to have a secondary burn (providing you don't cut off too much oxygen). To control the heat and intensity of the heat with the Oslo I moderate the temp by how often I reload the stove (less frequent loading or 1-2 daily fires in the shoulder seasons vs. continual loading in January), the size of the wood (small vs. large), how much wood is in the firebox (small loads for small heat needs vs. more heat for more heat needs) and the type of wood (i.e. "junk" wood like chunks, uglies, popple, softwood slabs in the Spring and Fall vs. sugar maple, ash and elm in the dead of winter.)

 

[begreen]

Can we get a little background here on the area where the stove is and the overall amount of space being heated? Both Jotuls are excellent stoves, but they will burn differently than the Defiant. Modern stoves have a secondary burn cycle that may be a bit too peaky in a small space. And very few new stoves have the thermostatic control like the VC stoves. For these reasons, I'm wondering if a less radiant stove like a Woodstock Fireview, Hearthstone Mansfield or an Alderlea T6 might be a better fit.

 

[summit]

Firelight.

 

[fraxinus]

Faced with the exact same choice in replacing an old Defiant last year, I chose the Firelight and have not regretted it a bit. Jotul recommends a 400 to 600 degree surface temperature for the most efficient operation. At the low end of this range the stove puts out a great deal of heat, but in milder weather it's certainly possible to bring the stove up to the recommended temps, then let it gradually cool down. You'll get a much longer, slower cool down than with the Defiant.

The biggest adjustment for me in going from the VC stove to the Jotul was in fire starting. I found I needed to use a good deal more kindling and gradually add smaller pieces of split wood as the fire grew. This is pretty clearly spelled out in the Jotul owners manual, but it's especially important in warmer weather when the natural draft is less than it would be with a greater indoor to outdoor temperature differential. The Jotul also demands - because of its more restricted air supply - drier wood. The Defiant with its 8" pipe and flue and larger air openings was better able to cope with less than perfectly seasoned wood.

The Firelight is extremely well built and designed. The ash spillage problem with opening the front doors is easily overcome. I found I could do everything, including an occasional glass cleaning, through the side loading door. As far as the 80k plus btu rating, I don't doubt that the stove could produce this, but you'd have to really work at it. With a surface temp of 450 to 500 degrees I found the heat output very comparable to the Defiant's. It just took much less wood to produce it.

 

[formula_pilot]

Can we get a little background here on the area where the stove is and the overall amount of space being heated? Both Jotuls are excellent stoves, but they will burn differently than the Defiant. Modern stoves have a secondary burn cycle that may be a bit too peaky in a small space. And very few new stoves have the thermostatic control like the VC stoves. For these reasons, I'm wondering if a less radiant stove like a Woodstock Fireview, Hearthstone Mansfield or an Alderlea T6 might be a better fit.

Thanks for the replies, here are some of the details of the house. I did not want to overload the forum with a bunch of details on the first post.

It is a 2200sq ft. two story colonial with a single story section that is a family room between the “big box” and the garage. The stove is located in the family room, which is 330sq ft, 9’ ceiling. The heat from the wood stove spills out into the main house through a 5’ wide opening. The Defiant is capable of heating the whole house, though not evenly. The oil heat never kicks on the 2nd floor and the first floor will be in the mid 60’s on a typical winder day. As expected, the end of the house farthest from the stove is a bit cool. To provide heat for the whole house, the family room (with the stove) is in the mid 70’s, sometimes higher. Not the ideal layout, but we love the wood stove. It is nice to sit by the stove in just a t-shirt in the middle of January.

Because the stove room is in the single story section of the house, the chimney is on the short side- 16’ from the flue entry to the cap. It is masonry, with a clay liner, 6.5”x10.6” ID. I am not sure to call the chimney inside or outside- it is in the garage, which is cold but protected from wind. The draft has generally been OK. I never had an issue with smoke spilling out during a cold start, but sometimes it was little lazy getting to full blaze. I found some significant air leaks which may have been a factor there.

fraxinus, is good to know that firelight and defiant are pretty close in heat output. I am limited on stove options, as I need a rear flue exit. It looks like my hearth was built custom for the Defiant, as the rear exit goes horizontal thru a stone wall to the chimeny. Whatever stove we get, it has to exit to the rear no higher than the Defiant.

 

[Battenkiller]

the chimney is on the short side- 16’ from the flue entry to the cap. It is masonry, with a clay liner, 6.5”x10.6” ID.

One thing I notice right away. You may need to install a liner into that chimney if you're using a stove designed for a 6" flue.

 

[Fsappo]

The 600CB has worked for us in the past when replacing old Defiants, or CDW 288s. Providing the customer was happy with the heat provided by the previous stove. I also want to put in my two cents on the blue black finish. It is a great finish, very durable, easy to clean, without bein all shiny lookin

 

[Todd]

If it were me, I think I'd go with the larger Firelight. You can control the heat output by feeding it less wood but you will also have the extra BTU capacity when you really need it. Have you tried placing a fan on the floor blowing in towards the stove at that 5' opening? It may help even out the heat by bringing the cooler air in and pushing the warm air out.

 

[begreen]

The 600CB has worked for us in the past when replacing old Defiants, or CDW 288s. Providing the customer was happy with the heat provided by the previous stove. I also want to put in my two cents on the blue black finish. It is a great finish, very durable, easy to clean, without bein all shiny lookin

+1. Sounds like the F600 would work out for you.

+2 for Todd's suggestion, it works. The object is to blow the cool air towards the warm stove. That will start a natural convection loop and will prevent the family room from getting too hot. Try it with a box or table fan. For many folks it works quite well at evening out the heat.

 

[firefighterjake]

+Whatever to the Firelight . . . based on your square footage and home design . . . and +3 to Todd's suggestion for using the fans to move the heated air . . . it really works and helps moderate the temps in the home.

 

[leeave96]

You might also consider a Woodstock Fireview too. Not sure it has enough BTUs for your application, but a quick phone call to Woodstock could help. Reason I say Woodstock is for your turndown/clean burn and easy on the eyes requirements. Do a search on soapstone and you will find the reading interesting with regards to even heat with less spikes. The Fireview is a cat stove (as are all Woodstock wood stoves) and that will give you the ability to lower the stove temp without getting a bunch of creosote via the cat.

They are located a lot closer to you than me (Virginia) and they are having an open house very soon - see a separate post on this.

Another stove that has a big window on the front is the Keystone. It has a higher BTU rating than the Fireview, but it's dimensions are not that much different. I'll be interested in Todd's reports (he has both the Keystone and Fireview) when the cold weather hits.

BTW, the Fireview is rear exit only, the Keystone/Palladian is top or rear.

Beautiful stoves - clean burning too.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[formula_pilot]

Jotul 600 by default

Because the height of my chimney thimble, I am kind of forced to go with the Firelight 600, it is a perfect straight back connection with a rear exit. The extra piping needed to bring the Oslo pipe higher will push the stove out too far on the Hearth floor, and I do not want to build up the floor to accommodate the stove or make the hearth floor bigger, so the 600 wins.

I am still a little apprehensive to give up the Old Defiant, as it has run very well for me (silly sentimental about a 350 pounds of cast iron); however, the lure of buring less wood and getting to see the fire have me almost ready to call the dealer and close the deal on the 600. I guess the last reservation is understanding how much more effort does it take to get the Jotul 600 started from cold or near cold than an old stove like my Defiant? My weekday routine would bring me home in the evening to relight from just embers, and the Defiant required very little baby sitting to get blazing again. Since the house is usually unoccupied during the weekday, I only build a small fire most mornings, not full loads like in the evenings and weekends.

Thanks for the input guys.

Bill

 

[Battenkiller]

I am still a little apprehensive to give up the Old Defiant, as it has run very well for me (silly sentimental about a 350 pounds of cast iron); however, the lure of buring less wood and getting to see the fire have me almost ready to call the dealer and close the deal on the 600. I guess the last reservation is understanding how much more effort does it take to get the Jotul 600 started from cold or near cold than an old stove like my Defiant? My weekday routine would bring me home in the evening to relight from just embers, and the Defiant required very little baby sitting to get blazing again. Since the house is usually unoccupied during the weekday, I only build a small fire most mornings, not full loads like in the evenings and weekends.

I'd go ahead and pull the trigger. Those old VC stoves were awesome in their day (I'm burning in one new), but time marches. The Defiant will fetch you $500+ if it hasn't been abused. That and the tax credit are enough incentive. I wouldn't go worrying about how hard the Star will be to light. It won't be the same as what you are used to, but some good, dry kindling and small splits are easy enough to stockpile. I start every fire in my Vigilant that way anyway, just gets the thing roaring faster than putting full size splits on the leftover embers, and it gets the flue hot faster as well. Getting the stove up to operating temps quickly will get those secondaries lit quicker, so I suspect that is a reason behind the recommended starting procedure.

Most (but not all) of the problems with the Jotuls seem to come from inexperienced burners who don't yet understand what is really going on inside the box. I'm sure that an experienced burner like yourself will figure her out in no time. That nice view of the fire will accelerate the learning curve.

 

[formula_pilot]

Well, I ordered the Firelight 600 yesterday, should arrive at the dealer in a week or two. I am sure it be a lot of fun moving a 465lb stove into the family room, The dealer wanted $550 to deliver it and place it on the hearth, so I am going the DIY route.

 

[stoveguy13]

550 for delivery are you for real? who is the dealer?

 

[firefighterjake]

Well, I ordered the Firelight 600 yesterday, should arrive at the dealer in a week or two. I am sure it be a lot of fun moving a 465lb stove into the family room, The dealer wanted $550 to deliver it and place it on the hearth, so I am going the DIY route.

Just do like I did . . . invite any rugged friends or family members you know over to your house . . . promise pizza and beer afterwards . . . lighten the load by removing the doors and other parts that easily come off . . . invite far more people than you need . . . and make sure one of those folks happens to have a dolly used to move furniture!

 

[grommal]

Well, I ordered the Firelight 600 yesterday, should arrive at the dealer in a week or two. I am sure it be a lot of fun moving a 465lb stove into the family room, The dealer wanted $550 to deliver it and place it on the hearth, so I am going the DIY route.

Holy %&$$#$! That's a ton for delivery. My dealer charged me $120 to remove our old VC and haul it away and deliver the Oslo and set it on the hearth exactly where I wanted it. All I had to do was install a few pieces of new stovepipe.

 

[formula_pilot]

550 for delivery are you for real? who is the dealer?

I will be happy to post that info when the deal is complete- they have been great to deal with so far.