Agitated w. Stove Marketing

[Mr. Kelly]

I know, I should be thankful - It's Thanksgiving.

However, I'll make exception for all of us that have been shopping stoves... and doing everything we can to research our upcoming investment. So.... here goes....

CURSES TO THE MANUFACTURERS... who refuse to cough up important information that would be imperative to anyone who is seriously researching stoves - Such as STOVE BOX SIZE

Does anyone else share the frustration?? I can't imagine that they don't expect that people are going to want to compare/contrast (they teach us this by 2nd Grade) by means of firebox size.

I went out to see Pacific Energy stoves yesterday (great company). Good thing I had my handy measuring tape with me, and a note pad. The box sizes seemed more guarded than Fort Knox. So, I come home to get on the internet to do more research, and once again PE has NO box sizes listed on their websites, in their brochures, or in their manuals. WHAT'S UP WITH THAT? It's like going out to buy a car and having them tell you they're not going to tell you exactly how large the engine is... it's just "Small, medium and large". Come on. I couldn't even find where they have log size listed. Am I missing something? Do they not realize that there's a whole clientele of folks out here that CARE about that kind of stuff? It seems rather secretive. PE's not the only one that does this.

Any thoughts as to what they'd be thinking by doing this? I hope they're not simply trying to "dumb down" their marketing. Their discriminating buyers need more from them than this.

There... I feel better.

 

[pen]

I too have been frustrated by this. To my good fortune I have found this site and taken the advice of a good many people who can decipher a companies marketing schemes with experience, trials and tribulations.

In all, I agree with your final statement. I truly think this sort of marketing is the result of companies trying to appeal to wood burners who can better relate to small, med, large than act cubes. Anyone ready to be supersized???


pen

 

[carinya]

go visit

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm)

for firebox size

 

[SolarAndWood]

The problem is the marketing guys publish firebox sizes that are bs. If I was forced to either publish a bs number to be competitive with everyone else or publish nothing, I would publish nothing. The only way to do what you are trying to do is put a tape measure in all of the boxes and come up with your own real world effective size for the stoves you are interested in. Or, if you don't have access to them, ask folks here to measure their stoves for you. The published size of my firebox is 4.3 but I would put it at a real world effective size of 3. But, it is much bigger than stoves that are published as 3...

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you for that link. It is a good resource. Too bad we have to find out info like this through the "black market", so to speak! I now feel like I have "privileged" info!

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Another thing that I found to be important when I was out measuring boxes is the actual north/south east/west measurements, as a slight difference in ratio b/w one to the other can really change how you may be able to load your stove, thus affecting performance. For example, I was interested in the Jotul Oslo, which has an E/W measurement of over 20". What they don't tell you is that the N/S is only like, 12", which means if you don't have 20" logs, you're not going to be able to easily stuff that box full for long overnighters, as there's usually no combination of lengths in your average wood pile that will equal 22". So if you don't have a long stick, you're going to have dead air.

Also, one of the PEs (forget which), has a N/S that's about 18", but the other direction only about 15", which is just about a couple of inches short of being able to load either way w. average-sized commercial splits. This will likely make a difference for those who buy 16-18" splits. Wish some of these companies would figure this out, and add a couple of inches on to make their stoves more versatile. I think Travis (Lopi/Avalon) has their boxes almost square, which I find very attractive.

 

[cycloxer]

I had the same problem when I was comparing stoves. I just gave up and brought my own tape measure to the stove shops and measured the boxes of the stoves I was comparing. I don't believe much of the literature published regarding efficiency ratings, etc. We are burning wood here and the amount of heat you can extract from wood varies so much dependent on wood species, moisture content, the wood splits, the way they are loaded, etc. There are just too many factors.

My advice? Use your tape measure to pick a stove that fits your needs dimensionally (and I mean both on the firebox dimensions as well as the exterior dimensions for clearances) and then pick a brand that you can trust. Think about the company you are going to be dealing with 5 years from now when you need to perform maintenance or make repairs.

Oh yeah, I bought a Jotul Castine F 400. I liked the firebox size, I liked the overall dimensions, I liked the look, and I trust the brand.

 

[rdust]

I think Travis (Lopi/Avalon) has their boxes almost square, which I find very attractive.

My Endeavor can go 18" n/s or w/e, I like 16" lengths so I have a little wiggle room. Loading an 18" w/e is a pain due to door opening size. The square firebox was one of the things I liked about the lopi stove along with the bypass and the brick baffle.

 

[Dirtgrain]

I share your frustration. But it was good motivation to get me out to a bunch of dealers.

The Lope Revere and Republic 1750i inserts have pretty square fireboxes. The Lopi Freedom and Avalon Olympic have wider but shorter fireboxes, with the Freedom tapering back. In the Olympic, I measured the distance from the back brick to the inside of the lip at the bottom of the front door to be 14". I'm thinking you could maybe get 15"-16" logs front to back in that one. Is there a rule of thumb how far you want the front end of the log to be from the window, if you burn front to back?

 

[branchburner]

I've noticed Jotul doesn't publish firebox sizes either, which is surprising. Woodstock goes the extra mile (as usual) and gives the actual firebox dimensions, not just the total cubic feet. Although I admit to being annoyed by this because I had to then do the math myself, which took several seconds.

 

[webbie]

The problems with "by the numbers" buying is all the stuff you don't get to know....like how much wood you can actually fit into the stove.

At the shop, we had the real world test where we would grab 3 or 4 good sized splits and tell the customer to put them into stove A and then stove B. Two stoves which claim the same heating capacity....one might hold double the splits.

You can't win...which is why actually seeing the models and talking to owners may be better than believing sales sheets.

Even comparing firebox size is confusing. A bigger box means nothing unless one had the bigger wood pile to go with it........

So, you can't win........

 

[littlesmokey]

Can I ask, why the precise measurements are so important? Granted they should be available to a buyer, but is there a reason to know the internal dimensions of the box. Relatively sized, meaning the cubic feet in this case is loaded with reference data. The lenght of the firebox to determine the maximum log length with the appropriate set back known by the dealer. More important to me is the width and heighth of the door. How big a chunk can I stick in. It is very rare, and I really don't think I have every "filled" my stove.

As far as the capacity and output of the stoves, they are not determined by the manufacturers. Ask Mike from Englander Stove's what they go through to prep a stove for testing, and what it costs. Those tests are done by an independent laboratory, using standards set by the approving agency, the Federal Governement here and the Canadian up north. Both standards highly respected. To think otherwise is like saying Ford horse power is different from Chevy's. Notice I didn't use the fuzzy analysis used in electric motors. I once saw a movie of a stove being tested, trust me the knickers were tight on all the company engineers. Mike might tell us what it costs, but I think it was over $10,000 several years ago. Those standards are there so folk can compare stoves with a common language and set of facts.

I can understand your frustration in analyzing the pros and cons. There are few black and white limits. I once helped a friend go to the stove stores and ask the right questions and spent several days picking just the right stove for his use. His wife was included in the final analysis and walked into the stove store where he was going to show her THE Stove. She said, "Look honey that's the one, I like the color red." She had done all the homework herself and picked a great stove they love today and use as primary heat, but the swing for her was Red. And no it wasn't a PE.

You can over analyze, but need some human feedback, so ask away, don't just dump on the one stove and dealer.

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Although I admit to being annoyed by this because I had to then do the math myself, which took several seconds.

Seconds are precious time and shouldn't be underestimated! :snake:

 

[North of 60]

Although I admit to being annoyed by this because I had to then do the math myself, which took several seconds.

Seconds are precious time and shouldn't be underestimated! :snake:

Well there is one thing going for ya Mr. Kelly. That 3 cords of wet wood that you purchased and also were complaining about.
It should be well seasoned buy the time you find a wood stove that satisfies Ya as they haven't even invented it yet. :lol:

 

[Mr. Kelly]

You can over analyze, but need some human feedback, so ask away, don't just dump on the one stove and dealer.

I certainly wasn't intending to dump on any one company (I'm actually seriously considering a PE), but mostly the practice of withholding what I think is reasonably pertinent info. The Jotul example is a perfect one to illustrate: I was initially psyched that you could get 22"logs in the Oslo, and went out looking to check out that stove. However, what I didn't know 'til I measured the thing, is that it won't hold an 18" log N/S, as it's only about 12'. That wouldn't be a problem for one who can assure that they'll have predominantly long logs on their pile. Almost all the logs on my pile are about 18", with some about 20". If I was seriously considering the Jotul, I'd be in trouble loading E/W overnight on a regular basis (no sums of my logs come close to 22"), when the general rule is to load the thing to the gill, then turn 'er down and let 'er simmer all night, no? Therefore, I would think you'd want to know the exact dimensions so you could basically estimate the likely amounts of wood and you could stuff in there, and the orientation of the loads, in higher-needs situations.

As a post above mentioned, a more square box means you have the choice of going either direction, almost equally, which I would think would help with the heavy loads, as N/S seems like it would be a bit easier and practical to easily stuff the box full for the long fires.

Keep in mind this is coming from the perspective of someone who is trying to maximize the possibility of doing 24/7 with a stove yet to be determined, and on a budget that has already been determined!

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Well there is one thing going for ya Mr. Kelly. That 3 cords of wet wood that you purchased and also were complaining about.
It should be well seasoned buy the time you find a wood stove that satisfies Ya as they haven't even invented it yet. :lol:

It's been a long and crazy ride NO60. Your point is well observed. My wife agrees with you, that's for sure.

Each time I make a decision, there's some "detail" that changes the scenario, such as ceiling height restrictions, inspectors who haven't called back, box size comparisons, sales incentivse, etc..

Also, it's in many ways because I have 3x cords of wet wood sitting out there that I've been dragging my heels a bit. Perhaps, by the time a stove gets it's life in our house the wood on the pile will magically transform itself to dry, the stoves I like will all go on clearance, a new model will come out that out jumps the rest, and my wood pile will be just the right size for me to do 24/7 until the end of April!

btw, thanks for remembering that was me with the 3x cords of perspiring wood!

 

[LLigetfa]

...the stoves I like will all go on clearance, a new model will come out that out jumps the rest...

No, the stove you just bought will go on clearance and the new models will give you the worst case of buyer's remorse.

 

[Mr. Kelly]

...the stoves I like will all go on clearance, a new model will come out that out jumps the rest...

No, the stove you just bought will go on clearance and the new models will give you the worst case of buyer's remorse.

touche!

 

[North of 60]

author="Mr. Kelly" date="1259229889btw, thanks for remembering that was me with the 3x cords of perspiring wood!

Your a hard character to forget, an open honest one at that BUT Id hate to be a salesman dealing with you on any purchase. ;-) Cheers and good luck.

 

[branchburner]

I think it's nice to know the firebox dimensions so you'll know the maximum potential of your log size and burn times, but I really wouldn't worry too much about needing to perfectly realize that potential with your current wood supply. Get the stove that fits you and your house, and down the road a year or two you can worry about fine tuning the wood to fit the stove. N, S, E and W will sort themselves out. Lately I've been on a Hitchcock kick, doing a lot of North by Northwest burning.

Of course you always want to look at the stoves in a shop, but when you then go to another shop you are relying on memory, which for me is a very unreliable tool. I like numbers, even the semi-fictional ones. Not to mention that appearances can be deceiving. I recall thinking the Jotul 400 and 500 looked pretty close in size, and the 600 looked huge. But I've never seen the actual dimensions listed, and didn't measure them, so I still have only a general idea of what they are (maybe 1.5, 2 and 3?). Even if the numbers don't tell the whole story, to me they help add more sizes to the mix, like medium-small and medium-large (not to mention super tiny small and extra jumbo large).

 

[littlesmokey]

Kelly,

How many seasons of wood burning do you have under your belt? My granddad once said, "How can you ride a race horse, when you haven't even climbed on a tootheless nag?" He wasn't as crusty as it sounds, but reprimanded my Uncle as stearnly as I ever heard. I've been burning for over forty years and have never consciously thought about burning by the compass. I am careful to cut my wood short enough to fit in the stove, but if it doesn't it doesn't. They will always fit in the shop stove. I am more concerned about the quality of my burn technique than maximizing the fuel I can cram in it. When I burned overnight I put in what I coud, or had on the hearth. If it was cold in the morning, build a fire before the coffee, not after.

There are special techniques and certain members here are officinados of the special burn, but most are still learning and taking it one step at a time. Crawl, climb, walk, run, sprint, ultra marathon, take up biking. You will have more than one stove by the time you get to super-pro. Or you might stick with the rest of us grounds keepers.

 

[branchburner]

Perhaps, by the time a stove gets it's life in our house the wood on the pile will magically transform itself to dry, the stoves I like will all go on clearance, a new model will come out that out jumps the rest, and my wood pile will be just the right size for me to do 24/7 until the end of April!

The wood will dry by itself eventually, but if it cuts itself to length, too, let us know. I'm tired of sharpening my saw.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Totally sympathize. And then there's Hearthstone (and no doubt others), which is STILL listing max log size for the Tribute at 16 inches, when the firebox will only take 14 laid flat, a slim 15-incher if it's shoved in from upper far corner to lower near corner. I very nearly came to grief by ordering 16-inch firewood before trying some out.

And then there's all the info about firewood and stove operation they could provide to first-timers but don't.

Honestly, I think a lot of it has more to do with indifference and plain laziness than anything else.

 

[branchburner]

And then there's all the info about firewood and stove operation they could provide to first-timers but don't.

Honestly, I think a lot of it has more to do with indifference and plain laziness than anything else.

No, it's just that if they gave out all that useful, helpful, and essential info they'd be afraid half of us would be scared off and never buy the damn stove. And they're right.

 

[jadm]

When I was shopping for our second insert I did a lot of reading here first and then went out a looked at ones I was interested in with tape measure in hand. I got a lot of strange looks but all dealers humored me.....

I also checked out the baffles to see how easy they were to remove and how solidly they were held in place....I looked over the blowers and how they were attached....Played around with the fire bricks and the door handles - pretty much left nothing untouched or left to chance.

Reading the manuals made more sense after actually seeing one but I was frustrated too by what was left out of the literature.....Just didn't make any sense. I think that just about every company had it's own bit of info. that was left out..

By the way, I didn't know about this forum when I purchased our first insert and was absolutely clueless. I made the error of trusting a salesman who was a clueless as I was....2 years later I replaced that insert....an expensive ordeal to say the least. Don't think you will have that problem.