Help with a fireplace surround the needs modifications prior to a new insert

[ssweb]

Hi all,

I have spent quite a few days running all around this site and have found some excellent information as well as some very funny anecdotes. I especially loved the thread about cleaning the chimney with diesel. :lol:

Well this is my dilemma,

I was already to have a Harmon 200i insert installed in my home when I was able to get the fireplace measurements to the store manager and found we did not have the proper clearances, (Huh what are those) and with the current setup. After my wife’s first reaction of "Your not changing the look of the fireplace or we are selling the house" I have gotten her to come around.

However I brought home some samples of what I believe was a tile material that I thought was copper on stone and yet I have spoken to the manufacture who has stated it is a resin product. This is from a company called MSI and I found this sample from good old HD. The literature states it is ok up to 175 degrees.

Here is a link one of the pieces from the website

http://www.msistone.com/products/MosaicsDetails.aspx?MosaicsID=473

I have also attached a doc that has an example from their catalogue of how this would look. The interesting thing is that it is installed in a kitchen right next to a large gas stove in their catalog.

I am considering on having this installed approx 8 inches from the sides and 14 inches from the top of the insert. As prescribed in the Hampton document.

I am really concerned if this will meet the clearance requirement as well should I be concerned with the material being that close to the fireplace insert.

Now, if this does not work I am in need of finding possibly a stone material that has the same type of pattern in the attached document. That means a suggestion or two on the cheap as to rebuilding the surround.

I would like to say upfront thank-you for any help and ideas and suggestions anyone may have.

Scott
Southern Maine

 

[ssweb]

I hope the first post was not too long. I was trying to keep it simple.

I am including a picture of our current setup.

One question I have is how far over and up does the brick go? I know that I can determine this by taking off the mantel yet I am trying to design this as much as possible prior to this step.

I welcome your thoughts and help.

Scott

 

[drdoct]

I bet you'd be ok with a heat shield. You may want to check into that before you do anything rash like remove the mantle. I would never go with a resin tile on a hearth/mantle area. Good to 170 may be ok, but your mantle is good to over 170. If you have to do the work then you should go ahead and put in real tile/stone. It's a hard/expensive enough job to do once... much less having to redo it after an overfire.

 

[ssweb]

When you say heatshield are you suggesting a piece of metal over the existing mantel surround.

Do you know what the temp is around the mantel area?

 

[fredarm]

The Pacific Energy Vista Insert has an optional shield that fits just above the gap between the top of the stove and the surround. You can see it in the picture in my avatar. It increases the clearance to combustible materials (like a wooden mantel) above the stove by directing the heat outward. I expect some other inserts have this feature, although I couldn't tell you which ones.

 

[ksting]

I had a very similar fireplace and mantle in my old house, except my hearth wasn't raised.
I installed an Avalon Rainier (90 degree flue model) to push it in farther into the fireplace so it wasn't sticking out that far at all. (Less radiant heat off the top.)

I still didn't meet the clearance requirements either so I just told the inspector I was going to install a heat shield but I never did.
The mantle did get pretty warm but never hot enough to do any damage.

You an always install a heat shield afterwards if you're still uncomfortable, but I doubt you'll need one if you go with a more "flush" type of install.
It would be overkill to modify your whole fireplace and mantle.
That's just my opinion.

EDIT: If I can find a picture, I'll post it.

 

[ssweb]

My installer will not install it if I do not have the clearance. at this point I have a date in two weeks for the install

Also I am looking at keeping with the Hampton HI200. My other choice was the Jotul Winterport

 

[ksting]

I think most Harmons have an optional heat shield. You should look into that. May bring your clearance requirements down enough to satisfy the installer. My installer didn't care, as long as I signed off that I got a permit.

 

[fredarm]

The PE Vista Insert requires 18.5 inches of clearance from the top of the stove body to the combustible surface with the mantel shield (down from 29.5 inches without the shield). Would that work for you?

 

[oconnor]

I had a similar issue and had to rip the mantel and side sections out. We replaced both with concrete. Check out the link below for the details. We were glad we did as we found areas where we had wood behind walls too close to the flue and wouldn't have known if not.

 

[apples439]

I would check with the manufacturer regarding absolute minimum clearances with heat shields. They would be fairly inconspicuous when used with an insert. Your mantel does look fairly low so you might run into a problem with many manufacturers. That being said, it's hard to tell from pictures with no frame of reference.

-Todd

 

[ksting]

I had a very similar fireplace and mantle in my old house, except my hearth wasn't raised.
I installed an Avalon Rainier (90 degree flue model) to push it in farther into the fireplace so it wasn't sticking out that far at all. (Less radiant heat off the top.)

I still didn't meet the clearance requirements either so I just told the inspector I was going to install a heat shield but I never did.
The mantle did get pretty warm but never hot enough to do any damage.

You an always install a heat shield afterwards if you're still uncomfortable, but I doubt you'll need one if you go with a more "flush" type of install.
It would be overkill to modify your whole fireplace and mantle.
That's just my opinion.

EDIT: If I can find a picture, I'll post it.

Found a picture!

 

[ssweb]

Thanks all for your comments. This is great info.

Fredarm,

As the PE Vista Insert looks like a nice unit I seem not to have mentioned that we are looking for an Cast Iron only unit. Hence the HAmpton of Jotul

Oconnor,

Great details on the install.

I have found a product from Shaw Industries that I can not tell is a non Combustable. (I will be contacting the vendor tommrrow) However I need to keep in mind that if it is more than the clearances this should not be a prolem. Installers please help me keep this straight.

One thing I have donw is to drill a hole thru the side mantel under the matches holder and it appears the brick goes to under the center of the holder. This should be enough for the side. Muy top may be anothe another issue.

 

[ssweb]

Well all, I thought I would provide an update.

After reading and talking to all here I decided on going with the HI200. I so agree with the idea that you can't build a bigger fire with a smaller stove yet since we had pretty much all set to go this was the direction. For one thing most of this heat is supplemental and not primary.

So I am all set to go and I get all my measurements and all to the Sales person at the store and we determine the clearances will not work for my current surround. His suggestion is to replace it or cancel the order which is what a lot of people do. I just could not see that as an option. The wife had other opinions.

Some of you may have see some of my other post on the mantel surround which has been interesting to say the least.

One thought was tile and wood. After locating and getting the various tile pieces, Taking out the current surround it was apparent to me (the husband) that the tile was not the preferred direction by the CEO of the house. So back to the traditional surround as we had. I have gotten a quote of about 450 to rebuild it and it looks like I will be going this route. Anyone need some tile

The interesting thing is prior to pulling it out and installing the insert I was in a conversation with the installershop owner about my plans and he mentioned that I did not need to remove the surround prior to him installing the insert. He stated that because I had a plan he was ok with moving forward with the install prior to my removing the current surround. Hmmm thought was to let him install then bag the plan but I knew I had to do this the correct way.

So at this point we have the insert and it is producing some great heat. One aspect I like the best is going out at night and smelling the fire in the crisp air. I am a little concerned now that I do not have enough wood and can certainly see myself looking at all downed wood as potential.

Thanks to everyone for your help and ideas

 

[fredarm]

The Hampton looks like a nice unit. It came out after I installed my Vista but I definitely would have looked at it if it had been available at the time. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[TreePapa]

If you're gonna have your surround rebuilt, you might want to think about having MORE than the min. req. clearances, just in case you decide to get a different insert in the future.

 

[tickbitty]

Did you ever finish this project? Wouldn't a mantel shield solve the problem rather than pulling the mantel and everything out? Would love to see a pic either way! (I searched this thred out because I was looking at the harmon insert.)

 

[ssweb]

Did you ever finish this project? Wouldn't a mantel shield solve the problem rather than pulling the mantel and everything out? Would love to see a pic either way! (I searched this thred out because I was looking at the harmon insert.)

Yes, I did and sorry to say I have been remiss in posting any photos. Well better late than never.

As noted my wife was very adamant that if I change the mantel we would be selling the house. She had fallen in love with the fireplace.

I found a carpenter who took measurements of the mantel and made an expanded replica of what we had. For a cost of about $350.00 , I stained it myself

The top brick stopped about two inches from the bottom of the wood and exposed combustible material. This is why the tile along the top of the brick. As noted in some other post I was not sure if the tile material for some if it is not stone but a composite. In two years I have not found it get too hot so I am very happy.

This is a picture of the new setup. The picture in the second post is the original mantel.

THANK-YOU everyone for your help.