Real World Burns and Quality..? Anyone...? Anyone...? Bueller... Bueller?

[Solar+Wood]

First Post here. (2-21-2011 update excerpt pasted below)

Have 4 questions listed below and a Cat one at the very end.

1. What 5 non-cat large box (= or > 3 cu ft) wood stoves actually burn more than 8-hrs on seasoned hard wood after getting a good bed of coals before going to bed? *** I'm talking only about stove temperatures that actually can keep a fairly tight 1,000 sq ft room (open floor plan) at 70F when outside temps are 5F. That's 70F in the room by the end of the burn.***

2.. What about a 2,000 q ft room (open floor plan)?

3. Are there any non-cat EPA approved boxes that exceed 4 cu ft? 5 cu ft?

4. Can you re-prioritize those stoves based ONLY in the quality of their construction for longevity (low maintenance issues after being used daily for the main heat source)?

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********Please state if you are a dealer/salesman or in any way associated with a dealer/salesman and/or manufacturer in the beginning of your replies. Thank you.**********
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Background/comments:
I started reading all the posts I could about burn lengths, etc before my eyes glazed over. All the posts are very interesting, but nothing really jumps out as the smoking gun to help lead the way on my next purchase.

This new stove will be a basement stove that I hope to use as the primary heat source instead of my LP furnace. The 3-yr old house/cabin is 2400 sq ft and sits at 9,000 ft above sea level and is totally off the grid. I really bought the LP furnace as an emergency back-up and quick heat in the morning. I started to look at coal as an option, but backed off that path. I am still somewhat interested in combo boxes (add-on furnaces/stoves) like the Fire Chief and Energy King, but there are drawbacks for my application; thus, back to free standing wood stoves.

I have a Hearthstone Phoenix upstairs and am disappointed in the short burn times of about 4 to 6 hrs (high/ low settings). It has a vacu stack and uses outside air. I enjoy the stove otherwise, but still think it was a little pricey even though I got it on sale for $1,750 before taxes (stove only).

Basically Im looking for a solid work horse this time.
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As for Cat stoves and their followers:
Ive only read about the Blaze King's King 1107. Ive never used a Cat stove and shy about switching. When I did look at a King I was bothered by the metal used in its construction: It was the thinnest I've seen. Actually I only physically touched the Princess 1006 and assumed the metal used would be the same in the King 1107. Ive also physically seen/touched the Harmon TL300, Quadra-Fire 5700, PE Summit, Regency F2400 (medium box, but would buy the large box) and the New Englander NC30. and read about the Naploean 1900. All of the stoves that I touched had thicker steel used in their construction than Blaze King. Some by a lot (quality/longevity issues).

FWIW.... I Also noticed the cheaper stoves had a smaller inner fire box/chamber than what they advertised when I actually measured them one by almost 1 cu ft.... FWIW. The King's Princess advertise a 2.8cu ft box, but the inner chamber is actually 2.52 cu ft; I assume the King 1107 would be a little smaller than advertised as well... but still close. The thinner steel, cat technology and the very very high price make me weary of the King. Any comments from King/Cat users?

Thanks in advance,
Solar+Wood



2-21-2011 ****UPDATE*** See post #43 to see all of the post...

Someone here has probably already done this…. but what they hay anyway.

AVG BTU burns over the course of 8hrs. Based on a formula noted below.

I assume some will have issues with it, so have at it smile
It is my first draft and could use some help if I have something wrong.
so…Help me create a fair comparison since the industry has not.

Listed in order by size of firebox (smallest to largest)

Woodstock Fireview... 31,530 AVG BTUs for 8hr burn..(72% eff)... 2.18cu ft
Herthstone Phoenix... 33,145….....................(75% eff)... 2.2cu ft
Regency 2400........... 35,576….....................(77% eff)... 2.3cu ft
BKK Princess (CAT)... 46,403….....................(82.5% eff). 2.8cu ft
Regency 3100…......... 43,924….....................(75.4% eff). 2.9cu ft
Harmon TL300…........ 45,801….....................(76% eff)... 3.0cu ft
PE Summit…............. 48,392….....................(80.3% eff). 3.0cu ft
Hearthtone Mansfield..49,754….....................(77.4% eff). 3.2cu ft
Everzone 3.4….......... 53,273….....................(78% eff)... 3.4cu ft
QuadraFire 5700…..... 52,518….....................(76% eff)... 3.44cu ft
Englander 30-NC…..... 53,434….....................(76% eff)... 3.5cu ft
BKK King 1107 (CAT). 71,594….....................(82.5% eff). 4.32cu ft
Buck 91 (CAT)........... 76,013….....................(86% eff)... 4.4cu ft
Buck 94-NC…............. 64,523….....................(73% eff)... 4.4cu ft

Add your own box by using the formula below…. Enjoy!

Look at the note below about the two Buck stoves for CAT vs. NC comparison…. interesting.

*********See post #43 to see all of the post not just this excerpt (Formula, etc)...**********

 

[karri0n]

I'm not an owner, but everyone I've seen with a BK never looks back. There's people that have been burning their BK's for 10+ years without issue other than periodically replacing the cat.

 

[jadm]

Sorry, I can't answer your questions but I am sure someone will.

Wanted to let you know that there is a good dealer/store in CO that I can highly recommend - INGLENOOK. It is in Conifer. Phone is 303-838-3612.

Reason for recommend. I went to a local dealer for my first insert. Found out after the fact that they knew more about gas fireplaces than about wood burning appliances and that their customer service after the sale was a nightmare. I do not recommend them at all - Fireplace Warehouse.

I purchased my second insert last winter after finding this web site and doing a lot of foot work. I went to more stores in the area and, since I live in Lakewood, really did not want to venture up into the mountains but finally did. Boy am I glad I did. I am also glad that I had gone to a lot of other stores too because I knew that this one was different. Even though the sales person didn't know a lot about the Jotul 550 because it was so new, she did not pretend that she did. She knew where to find the info. and was very good at answering all of my questions. Follow up has been great. I usually only have to make one phone call and all is settled.

Since they are located in the mountains they are dealing with a population that uses wood for primary heat so they do know a lot more about wood burning. They also have a huge selection that you can choose from - lots of stoves on the floor that you can look at.

Good Luck with your research.

 

[gpcollen1]

I get very good burn times out of my Avalon olympic. I have coals that can start a fire easily after 12 hours. Overnight I usually do a 6-7 hour burn, so i can leave the air open a bit, and I have some decent heat still coming out of the stove with the blower left on low.

Do you want a stove that works best with a blower or no?

 

[myzamboni]

Do a search on wood furnaces.

 

[Lanningjw]

<<<FWIW.... I Also noticed the cheaper stoves had a smaller inner fire box/chamber than what they advertised when I actually measured them… one by almost 1 cu ft.... FWIW. The King’s Princess advertise a 2.8cu ft box, but the inner chamber is actually 2.52 cu ft; I assume the King 1107 would be a little smaller than advertised as well… but still close. The thinner steel, cat technology and the very very high price make me weary of the King. Any comments from King/Cat users?<<<

I was not aware that the BK Pricess Insert's box was 2.52 CF, according to your measurement's. I am going to e-mail the corp office and tell them your findings.
BTW what were your measurement's?
Jim

 

[Corey]

First Post here. ...

Congrats and welcome to the forum

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Background/comments:
I started reading all the posts I could about burn lengths, etc before my eyes glazed over. All the posts are very interesting, but nothing really jumps out as the smoking gun to help lead the way on my next purchase.

You're expecting that trend to change with this thread?

This new stove will be a basement stove that I hope to use as the primary heat source instead of my LP furnace. The 3-yr old house/cabin is 2400 sq ft and sits at 9,000 ft above sea level and is totally off the grid. ...

The amount of insulation in your basement and the altitude are going to hugely affect the heat/burn times of this install. You'll probably want to de-rate the stove by ~10 or more percent due to the altitude, shave off another chunk for the stove being in the basement, and cut that even more if the basement walls and floor are unfinished / uninsulated. There are a couple high altitude burners on the forum, so it will be interesting to get their input.
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Thanks in advance,
Solar+Wood

Good luck and best wishes locating your perfect stove.

 

[Solar+Wood]

Wow…. That was quick. Thanks for the comments so far folks.
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karri0n
Ya.. I’ve heard that about the Blaze King crowd. My GF says when she lived in the mountains of WA and in MN that the King stoves were all the buzz… but that’s about 20-years ago????? So I’m sniffing around for today’s real world buys. The use of thinner metal compared to others (even the more reasonably priced mfrs and models) makes me really question things.
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perplexed
I will call the business in INGLENOOK.
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CTwoodburner
I will read about the Avalon Olympic
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myzamboni
I’m not sure what you meant. Are you saying that I should still consider add-on furnaces as an option? If so, any you seem to like or have heard good things about. I’ll google just wood furnaces later tonight to see if you meant that there is a difference. So far the Fire Chief and Energy King seemed like little tanks and were better priced than the Harman (which I hear got bought up by Quadra-Fire). I’ve heard of others, but backed off to research freestanding stoves.
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Lanning
For the Blaze King Princess….
I will have the measurements for you when I get back home to my notes.
I don’t count the space that I think can’t really be used… like above a secondary burner tube… or butting up against the glass. It’s based on where I would place the wood….in the box and off the window and off the air inlet. First obstacle encountered is the top of the stove for me…. First obstacle in the mouth is the front.
Let me know what they say about their King 1107… thanks!
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cozy heat

Ya…. That’s why I’m looking for the biggest meanest box I can ;>
I hope more high altitude folks chime in with real world experiences.


Best Regards,
Solar+Wood

 

[karri0n]

My Isle royale has a 3.0 CF box is non cat, and since installing the damper I've gotten Just over 8 hour burns. I still think a Summit or a Hearthstone Equinox might perform better, and I know both of these have been known for 8 hours+. Your Phoenix can probably be improved with a longer burn time if you install a pipe damper.


As far as your question with operating a cat, it's really not any more difficult. The "more difficult" crowd usually have either never burned one, or have a reason for you to not want a cat (I.E. they run a shop that only carries non cat models). You can find quite a few cat vs. non cat discussions on here, I know Buck stoves makes a huge cat monster (Buck model 91) with a 4.4 CF firebox, and I believe the MSRP is lower than a Blaze King, but I've never spoken to anyone who has burned one. I've yet to find anyone who complains about the durability of their BK, but if the thinner metal makes you uncomfortable, that's definitely your right. It's your money, and I wouldn't want to shell out that kind of cash on a product I wasn't completely sure of the durability on either. On the other hand, I believe every person I've seen a post from that lives in Alaska owns a Blaze king and is more than happy with it.


Edit: Just reread my post, and I sound like a BK dealer. For the record, I still think they're ugly.

 

[Solar+Wood]

karri0n:
Thanks for the advice with the damper. I tried that with my old stove in the basement and it seems to be helping. Maybe I'll tinker with the Phoenix soon. FWIW, I also lived in Anchorage for a little bit, but REAL Alaska cold doesn't happen until about 1 to 2-hrs out of town if I recall correctly. I was cozy in my gas boiler and in-floor radiant heated apartment. P.s. Really like the looks of the Royal.
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CTwoodburner:
I would guess with a blower. But I would also be curious about w/out a blower. Let the GF help me choose the poison from there on ;>
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Lanning and others who may be interested.... Here's what I found in my jumble of notes.
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Blaze King Princess (ONLY CAT in this list):
17" Deep
20.5" Wide
12.5" High (fire brick to bottom cat)
Advertised box of 2.8 cu ft
My measurements 2.52 cu ft ---(17x20.5x12.5)/1728=2.52097cu ft---
Metal construction looked flimsy for the money and reputation.
It had the thinnest metal of all the stoves I have here (have not seen the Napoleon)
Would be interested in King 1107 (largest box in my list @ 4.32 cu ft advertised)
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Regency F2400:
17 Deep if you set the wood on the metal lip
15 Deep if you don't
18.25 Wide
11 High
Advertised box of 2.3 cu ft
My measurements 1.9749 cu ft (1.74 cu ft if you stay off the lip)
Metal construction looked very solid
Would be interested in F3100 (largest box/3cu ft advertised)
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Harman TL300:
Looked pretty much on target at 3 cu ft
Metal construction looked very solid
Top loader is a big plus
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Quadra-Fire 5700:
22.5 Deep
18.5 Wide
13 High (Based on first Secondary burn tube)
Advertised box of 3.44 cu ft
My measurements 3.1315 cu ft
Metal construction looked very solid
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PE Summit
2.36 cu ft versus advertised 3.0 cu ft
Metal construction looked very solid
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New Englander NC30
18 Deep
20 Wide
13 High (First Secondary burn tube)
Advertised box of 3.5 cu ft
My measurements 2.7083 cu ft
Metal construction looked very solid
Least expensive purchase price of this list
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Napoleon 1900
Haven't seen one in person.
Their combustion chamber is listed at 2.8125 cu ft, but also advertised at 3.0


Cheers,
Solar+Wood

 

[Solar+Wood]

Just though about this.....
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I can't recall if the Quadra-Fire 5700 had a lip on it at the opening like the Regency F2400....
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If so, I need to go back and measure that to get a better reference point.
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Solar+Wood

 

[Todd]

That's interesting that the BK Princess firebox has only a 12" height. I was thinking it was much deeper. Energy King has a cat stove that I loooked at the other day that was very well built and stout. But it has the same firebox of 2.5. If you can vent an 8" look at the BK King or the Country Flame big cat. If your going to go for wood as primary heating your going to need a fire box over 3 cu ft in my opinion.

 

[Solar+Wood]

I'm starting to think my best option is to look again at add-on furnaces that burn both wood and coal that use a 6-inch pipe in a basement application.
The big draw back other than looks is the need for electricity.
Off grid living makes you cautious about options and dependencies ---in case of an emergency power outage.
They cost about the same as a Quadra-Fire 5700.
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The Fire Chief and Energy King make models with fire boxes around 7 cu ft, accepts something like 25-inch logs, heat about 2,500 sq ft and I think only need fueled every 12-hrs using wood. I would guess less fueling with a pinch of anthracite coal or even bituminous coal (maybe only at night).
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For those that are curious, I read that anthracite burns hotter and longer than hard wood... 25-milllion BTUs per ton versus 20-million BTUs per cord (around 1.5 tons)
The bituminous burns at soft wood values, but burns longer than soft wood..... around 15-million BTUs per ton.
Both are much dirtier than wood, bituminous being the dirtier of the two ---and they stink.
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Anyone here ever use these kinds of heaters?
If so what are your experiences burning wood in them?
Anyone have any thoughts, comments, suggestions or just silly remarks ;> ?
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Again......... thanks in advance.
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Solar+Wood

 

[rickw]

Your concern re: the steel thickness of the Blaze King is less of an issue due its lower typical operating temperatures. If my Woodstock cat is any indication you will very seldom exceed 600 degrees, and not often 500 (stovetop temp). The little Lopi I used to burn would hit 700 with regularity.

The increased wood economy, even heat, and reduced load frequency are real cat benefits. I wouldn't dream of going back.Good luck!

 

[begreen]

Missing from the new choices are any Hearthstone stoves or Woodstock stoves. It you are trying to heat 24/7 at a high altitude, these stoves should be considered. The issue with the Phoenix seems to be that it was undersized. That shouldn't discourage you from choosing a right-sized soapstone stove.

A while back we had a well respected Colorado, high altitude stove owner and Boulder salesperson as a moderator. It might help to search and review posts by MountainStoveGuy about heating at high altitudes.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/2690/

 

[North of 60]

I had physically measured the usable fire box dimensions for this thread. I conservatively had more than 12" :coolhmm: Hope this helps. Theres 6" for the ash lip alone. Bottom of fire box to bottom of door opening. N of 60 https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/15440/

 

[Blaine]

FWIW Regency F2400 firebox depth is 19.5 inches. Air channel inside door opening reduces floor depth to 18.25 inches. Measurements taken on a stove purchased new in 2004. This suggests that your measurements were taken on an older stove which had a much deeper 'lip' than newer models.

 

[Wet1]

I'm starting to think my best option is to look again at add-on furnaces that burn both wood and coal that use a 6-inch pipe in a basement application.
The big draw back other than looks is the need for electricity.
Off grid living makes you cautious about options and dependencies ---in case of an emergency power outage.
They cost about the same as a Quadra-Fire 5700.
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The Fire Chief and Energy King make models with fire boxes around 7 cu ft, accepts something like 25-inch logs, heat about 2,500 sq ft and I think only need fueled every 12-hrs using wood. I would guess less fueling with a pinch of anthracite coal or even bituminous coal (maybe only at night).
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For those that are curious, I read that anthracite burns hotter and longer than hard wood... 25-milllion BTUs per ton versus 20-million BTUs per cord (around 1.5 tons)
The bituminous burns at soft wood values, but burns longer than soft wood..... around 15-million BTUs per ton.
Both are much dirtier than wood, bituminous being the dirtier of the two ---and they stink.
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Anyone here ever use these kinds of heaters?
If so what are your experiences burning wood in them?
Anyone have any thoughts, comments, suggestions or just silly remarks ;> ?
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Again......... thanks in advance.
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Solar+Wood

If I lived off grid, I would not want a system that relied on electricity, unless I had another device for backup which didn't rely on electricity. That would be my first criteria for selection.

With that said, (hard) coal does burn hotter and longer than wood. Given the choice, and cost/availability were of no concern, I'd pick coal over wood all day long. Coal only smells a little when you open the stove. It doesn't rot or go bad, it's easy to store, and it's not overly dirty since it's now washed before you receive it. Then again, I wouldn't consider wood 'clean' either. I wouldn't say it's any dirtier than wood if you have a decent handling system. It you get it bagged, it's a real treat to use and handle. But, coal might be more expensive and less accessible for you, so that should be a concern.

 

[Solar+Wood]

Thanks all.
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The measurements are from floor models what I had a chance to measure. I do not know their mfr dates. FWIW, I measured the Princess and Regency three times, but I can be all thumbs occasionally ;>
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As for thickness and the Kings….
If you are going to pay top dollar, wouldn’t ya think they make it look stout? Just looks flimsy. But I guess it works from what just about everyone here says.
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As for Soapstone stoves….
I Like the one I have even though it is undersized a little. The area it heats is under 2,000 sq ft which is I thought was its max under ideal conditions. It was never intended to be the work horse. Anywhoooo…I believe I want something that kicks out heat ASAP when I get home or wake up….and that would be steel or cast iron. Although, if I could get the Equinox for half off I would buy it and live with waiting <g> Any used ones for sale????
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Off Grid and Coal….
Are you talking about Bituminous coal or Anthracite? I thought Anthracite’s characteristics are as you described in your post, but I thought Bituminous did breakdown if left out in the weather, etc. I think that’s what I read…. And I did miss a night at the Holiday Inn Express…. So I could have it bass ackwards. I don’t think I can get Anthracite here for any reasonable cost. Bit coal goes for about $180 to $240 a ton. Can you burn that stuff in these new stoves??????????? I do have a good sized back-up generator, but I would rather be low tech and self sufficient --and I guess nothing beats a match and a little wood for keeping faithful to the KISS rule.
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Cheers,
Solar+Wood

 

[Lanningjw]

Response from BK regarding size of the fire box:

Jim:

The firebox calculations in the stove industry are computed by the
laboratories that certify the stoves for EPA. The calculations do include
specific space cavities you may not be including. However, more than likely
you may have a Princess Ultra or Princess Parlor model. These two models
have a second layer of brick in the bottom to help protect the ash plug hole
from being hit by a shovel during ash clean out. Although not mandatory, we
added the layer of brick to provide an even bottom. The bricks are 1" thick
and considering previously mentioned cavities, the firebox is certainly 2.8
cu. ft.

How is the stove performing?

Regards
Chris
Blaze King Industries, Inc.

 

[Solar+Wood]

Response from BK regarding size of the fire box:

Jim:

The firebox calculations in the stove industry are computed by the
laboratories that certify the stoves for EPA. The calculations do include
specific space cavities you may not be including. However, more than likely
you may have a Princess Ultra or Princess Parlor model. These two models
have a second layer of brick in the bottom to help protect the ash plug hole
from being hit by a shovel during ash clean out. Although not mandatory, we
added the layer of brick to provide an even bottom. The bricks are 1" thick
and considering previously mentioned cavities, the firebox is certainly 2.8
cu. ft.

How is the stove performing?

Regards
Chris
Blaze King Industries, Inc.

So…. If I read that correctly for the BK Princess ---and adjust for the firebrick (remove one layer) I get the following:

2.72 cu ft.
Still not the 2.8…. but I guess if you measure inside the space in every nook and cranny that you can’t store wood… like the void in the screw heads or places a log can’t be placed… then I guess it must equal the 2.8 as they state.

I didn’t sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I guess marketing isn’t being as honest as they could when they advertise their specs. I think the EPA is out to lunch on measuring fireboxes and is truly not an advocate of the consumer.

I am not bashing Blaze King as I see almost all manufactures doing this magical math gyration.
I.e. Like the PE Summit which I misquoted before because I didn’t have my notes… It’s actually 2.36 cu ft of USABLE space versus the 3cu ft they advertise. If you got to burn your hand or arm to get into that space they are counting, then they are deceiving the public IMHO.

Steel and cost:
The 3/16 looking steel on the BK models still looks shabby for the price you pay for it. Maybe that’s the REAL reason they add an extra layer of firebrick….??? Too thin a steel for where it could be used…. Over compensate with firebrick and ceramics (all models there).

Skimping on the steel when you ask top dollar really burns me up… Have you ever looked at plate steel prices? Here are some on-line prices I just looked up.

3/16 inch thick Steel Plate 4 X 8 Ft. 1-sheet $176.32
1/4 inch thick Steel Plate 4 X 8 Ft. 1-sheet $208.96
3/8 inch thick Steel Plate 4 X 8 Ft. 1-sheet $330.88

You know they have to get a discount for mass purchases/bulk.

So for a few bucks more profit they produce an inferior box for the heat they create insomuch that they then add a second layer of brick to compensate…. BUT don’t tell anyone that when advertising the combustion chamber….. sheeeesh!

The Quadra-Fire uses thicker than ¼ inch steel… 5/16 I think…? Nice feel, but still overpriced when looking at the Harman TL300.
I believe even the inexpensive New Englander NC 30 uses thicker steel than the BK…
I wonder if you can extend the burn times in the NC 30 by installing a flue damper AND a damper in an outside air kit….? Maybe that would increase burn times.

Oh well…. Done ranting. I was up for 36-hrs.

I really do appreciate you looking into the matter and replying in this thread. I am just truly disappointed in all the marketing ploys in general, lack of realistic measuring standards and simple lack of consistency that only is used to take advantage of the consumer…. The you and me of the world.

Now someone is going to say Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny aren't real.... they all are liars ;>

Cheers,
Solar+Wood

 

[karri0n]

BK stoves are massive beasts. Perhaps the thinner steel is to reduce weight? I can't say I've ever heard of someone complaining about metal fatigue on them. As far as the extra layer of brick, Precaud has a very interesting ongoing thread on here about how improving firebox insulation even at a sacrifice of a small amount of space(which could be done by adding bricks) will increase efficiency as well as the amount of heat thrown by the stove, while thicker steel tends to lower efficiency and temps as it is a greater thermal mass to pull heat away from the firebox. Personally, that other layer of brick is something I would definitely consider a plus.


IMO, wood heat is one of the few honest industries these days. There are lots of really good technicians and honest people working for most of these stove companies. Installers can sometimes be another issue, but there are plenty of true honest installers out there too. The ONLY dishonest party that you mention is the EPA. They aren't concerned with firebox sizes or the like. They have never claimed to be any type of consumer advocate, as they aren't concerned about safety either. All they care about is grams per hour and who gives them more money. You really have to consider that the firebox measurement is not 3.0 cf usable storage space for fuel, it's 3.0 cf of space for fire to be in. This includes a large amount of gas volume.


As far as the NC 30, I don't think anyone has complained about the burn times, it's just not possible to make a non cat stove burn longer than a cat. A pipe damper would increase the burn temp I'm sure, but if your setup is not over drafting, there's not much advantage to a pipe damper and it can easily make a fire smolder or promote creosote condensation even in the open state due to the drag it creates in the pipe.



edit: Just a side note - the cast iron in the isle royale is plenty thick, and I'd say in person, you might mistake it for an M1 Abrams.

 

[Solar+Wood]

Really like the Isle Royal.....Nice looking stove. Very very very tempted to buy one.

I guess I'm just confused about all of this. I would think having a large mass heated and/or then blowing air over it ---or even allowing it to slowly release its energy would be advantageous. Isn’t that the big sell with soapstone stove and in-floor radiant heat (cement slab) applications.

If you reflect heat back into the stove, where does it eventually go? I’m assuming up the chimney, out the glass or finally into the structure…. a combination of all of that. So I would figure it best to store the heat in the metal or stone and then release it further into the room…. The more mass the better but up to reasonable point.... right? Wrong??? who really knows???

I would also guess that there is only a finite amount of kinetic energy stored in an object. Harnessing it seems to be the debate for me in this thread; measuring it by the way of release time and actual amount entering the room. The more space you have (cu ft) to store and release your energy, the more options you have in release time and immediate heat.

The only variables I see other than volume of energy waiting to burn in the box (cu ft) is the amount of air allowed to enter & leave the chamber, how quickly, how it is dispersed and intermingled with gases …. and then there is the Cat variable.

So the more efficient the stove is the more likely you’ll get more of the heat into the room…. the more wood in the box the more energy/heat you can harness.

In the end, it appears to me that the EPA gph emissions is the only number that has any consistency and scientific credibility. The efficiency ratings seem to not really match up.....and the cat stoves seem to give a minimal bump in efficiency compared to a good non-cat stove…. but the cat folks say they get longer burn times....?

So I am back to square one. Confused. no real solid evidence from independent labs testing all these stoves at once other than the EPA natzis. That's it. I’m dumping my solar gear and just going nuclear.

Santa…. Santa… Watch out going down that chimney, it has a cat in it and it will burn your sack.... slowly for 40-hrs.

I'll keep reading and learning.... thanks again,
Solar+Wood---& maybe even more intense neutron power

 

[North of 60]

Solar+wood get your mind to open up and not to narrow it down on steel thickness's when it comes to stove costs. If you take new boilers, wood or gas for instance, they all have less metal in them and are more efficient, have better warranties and yes cost more. You pay money for design and quality. The BKs have an auto t-stat mechanism, Dual positive discharge/displacement prop fans, An expensive cat combuster that gives outrageous burn times when you match it up with the auto damper. It has a reliable mechanical working bypass damper. Look at the welds on these suckers. There perfect continuous penetrating beads that go on and on. All wich requires labour in manufacturing. They have quite a bit of assembly time on these units. That labour costs. It comes with doors that are not prone to leek when you take your stove out of the box and fire it for the first time. I have a fire lit no less than 250 days a year 24/7. Lots of 25 to 15 yr old stoves around here, non cat and cat with the same metal thickness's. Still juggin away.
Iam headin outa town in the AM and will return a reply on the weekend if you have more to rant about. :coolsmile:
Cheers N of 60

 

[Solar+Wood]

N of 60....

Good to hear.

I'm off to work and will rant more later ;> I'd like to here more about your BK Princess.

Hey I've seen Whitehorse from the air before.... looks cold down there.

Solar+Wood