Wood stove recommendation

[farmer_luke]

Hi there, I'm new to hearth.com and hope this isn't beating too dead of horse, but I'm looking for some advice regarding purchasing a new wood stove.

We currently have a Quadra-Fire Millenium 3100 and a Vogelzang "The Durango". We recently decided to get things up to code for safety reasons. The Vogelzang is in the basement and is rarely used. The Quadra-Fire was upstairs but we are remodelling and going to be moving the upstairs stove to a new location. There has been a crack inside the firebox at the rear for several years and we are thinking we will probably replace it while we're getting everything else up to snuff.
I'm looking at new stoves and considering lots of different options. In the past we haven't been real careful with how we burn or what we burn. The wood we have available is primarily cottonwood. I'm not sure what the moisture content is. I cut old, dead trees and limbs. The bigger pieces I split so they're maybe 15" by 8" (some are as much as 11 or 12" and barely fit in the door vertically). We use Timberlite fire starting squares (cut in half) to start the fires and don't have any problem putting just a couple of the big wood pieces in, light the square and walk away. Both stoves I typically light with the air control all the way open and leave it that way. The only rare time I might shut the air down is if it is very windy and too hot inside.
So now the questions:

1. Is it common to have a steel stove develop a break? Did this happen because we don't try to control the fire with the air control?
2. Considering we would prefer to keep it simple and not baby the stove should I stay away from a catalytic/ hybrid and soapstone?
3. Both of our stoves have had a Magic Heat reclaimer on the stovepipe. Any reason to not install this on the new stove?
4. What do you recommend that is the most durable, easiest to operate, aesthetically appealing option .

 

[GrumpyDad]

The experts will be here shortly to ask you questions. I'm just part of the peanut gallery.
But they are likely going to ask you what you have in your chimney now, what shape it is in, and be prepared to line it with an somewhat expensive liner. Or, be prepared to replace your stovepipe, ceiling adapter, chimney pipe, roof flashing etc. For me, and mine was a fairly simple install, the price of the stove pipe/chimney pipe was 2/3 the price of a rather pricey stove. 15' total run. 3k for stove, almost 2k for stove pipe, connector, chimney pipe, cap etc.

You will also need to consider certain model clearances, hearth area etc.

 

[begreen]

Both stoves I typically light with the air control all the way open and leave it that way. The only rare time I might shut the air down is if it is very windy and too hot inside.

That is a sure way to wreck a stove unless the wood is poorly seasoned. If it is poorly seasoned, it can be a good way to make creosote.

1. Is it common to have a steel stove develop a break? Did this happen because we don't try to control the fire with the air control?
See above. Improper operation is what caused this. It sounds like the stove may have been frequently overfired if the Burn rate control was left on high. The stove air should be closed down once the fire is burning well. How far closed depends on several factors.
2. Considering we would prefer to keep it simple and not baby the stove should I stay away from a catalytic/ hybrid and soapstone?
Yes, also consider a single burn rate stove where there is no user air control.
3. Both of our stoves have had a Magic Heat reclaimer on the stovepipe. Any reason to not install this on the new stove?
Get rid of them. They are creosote machines and noisy. The stove is supposed to provide the heat, not the flue. If the stove was run properly it would have put out a lot more heat but because the air was never turned down, secondary combustion was compromised. That's why so much heat was being wasted up the flue.
4. What do you recommend that is the most durable, easiest to operate, aesthetically appealing option .
Aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder and often have a price tag. The Quad Millenium 3100 is a good heater. Others in this size range are the Lopi Endeavor, PE Super, Regency 2450, etc. In single burn rate stoves look at the MF Fire Nova and the Vermont Castings Aspen C3.

 

[farmer_luke]

The experts will be here shortly to ask you questions. I'm just part of the peanut gallery.
But they are likely going to ask you what you have in your chimney now, what shape it is in, and be prepared to line it with an somewhat expensive liner. Or, be prepared to replace your stovepipe, ceiling adapter, chimney pipe, roof flashing etc. For me, and mine was a fairly simple install, the price of the stove pipe/chimney pipe was 2/3 the price of a rather pricey stove. 15' total run. 3k for stove, almost 2k for stove pipe, connector, chimney pipe, cap etc.

You will also need to consider certain model clearances, hearth area etc.

Both stoves were using an un-lined brick/mortar chimney. Now the basement stove is connected to a liner in the chimney with insulation filled in around it. The chimney sweep/installer said there wasn't enough consistent room to put the liner with wrapped insulation down without damaging the wrapped insulation. The upstairs stove, the one we're replacing, will have its own 6" class A stovepipe going up and out the roof.

 

[GrumpyDad]

That is a sure way to wreck a stove unless the wood is poorly seasoned. If it is poorly seasoned, it can be a good way to make creosote.

Would you agree that for an appliance like experience like they are used to, a pellet stove is likely the best option? I dont think there are any stoves you can just load up and walk away from and just totally forget (and neglect to some degree)

 

[ratsrepus]

Would you agree that for an appliance like experience like they are used to, a pellet stove is likely the best option? I dont think there are any stoves you can just load up and walk away from and just totally forget (and neglect to some degree)

BK you can, set em and forget em

 

[farmer_luke]

Would you agree that for an appliance like experience like they are used to, a pellet stove is likely the best option? I dont think there are any stoves you can just load up and walk away from and just totally forget (and neglect to some degree)

Not really interested in a pellet stove. The wood we burn is basically free and good for my health to get out and get it.

 

[begreen]

From the manual:

High Burn Rate - Maximum Heat

Raise the Burn Rate Air Control all the way up until it stops (top marker) to a fully open position. Slide the Start-Up Air Control all the way back until it stops (HI marker) and leave it there. This setting over-rides the timer system (ACC) so you must monitor the fire closely while in this setting.

****************

2. Burn Rate Air Control

This air supply enters at the upper front of the firebox, near the top of the glass door. This preheated air supplies the necessary fresh oxygen to mix with the unburned gases, helping to create second, third and fourth combustions. This air is regulated by the Burn Rate Air Control. There are four settings: High, Medium-High, Medium-Low and Low. When the control is raised all the way up it is on the High setting and when pushed all the down it is on the Low setting. Figure 27.1.
WARNING Risk of Fire.

When set on High Burn Rate and over-riding the Automatic Combustion Control system an overfire situation can occur and may result in a chimney fire.

Overfiring will void the stove warranty

 

[begreen]

BK you can, set em and forget em

After several steps.

 

[GrumpyDad]

After several steps.

well to be honest, I dont really have alot of steps. The stove has quirks but. I choose to mess with my stove more. And based on the feedback here I have mixed feelings if things are going well or not. But it seems to be doing the job. For me:
1. gather kindling, starter. Open door, build fire, light, close door, walk away for 20 minutes.
2. open top hatch and add 3-4 pieces of small/medium splits, walk away from ~20 minutes.
3. open hatch, look at coal bed, if 2" or more, add medium/large splits, walk away for ~20 minutes and let that get rolling, then close off the damper and set thermostat control to 1/2 or less.
4. the step I likely dont need to be doing once I get experience. Open damper, wait a few, crack open top door making sure flames dont burn my eyebrows off, let smoke go through back wall, then open further to inspect status of wood/coal bed, add more wood possibly or not.
5. repeat the above step every 30 minutes because this is how Im going to learn things like wood placement, coal bed, temp control, types of wood burning and what it does.

Im excited for a long overnight burn tonight! Im going to pack it, and put it on the 4th lowest setting, checking back every 45 mins or so until I pass out watching the floor is lava with the kids or something equally as cheesy. Last weekend, 2nd to lowest setting resulted in 9 hours later the stove being at 325ish, and only half the wood burned and covered in creosote. So I gotta keep those temps up a bit more.

I know not to leave things wide open unless it's just starting up or running cold. Im learning my adjustments based on temps inside/outside. I dont think you can really get away from this with any stove? I would imagine that everyone has some sort of air control they have to fiddle with to figure out what works for them and their circumstance.

I wonder if there is a refrigerator forum out there with people equally as interested and excited about their refrigerators?

 

[farmer_luke]

From the manual:

High Burn Rate - Maximum Heat

Raise the Burn Rate Air Control all the way up until it stops (top marker) to a fully open position. Slide the Start-Up Air Control all the way back until it stops (HI marker) and leave it there. This setting over-rides the timer system (ACC) so you must monitor the fire closely while in this setting.

****************

2. Burn Rate Air Control

This air supply enters at the upper front of the firebox, near the top of the glass door. This preheated air supplies the necessary fresh oxygen to mix with the unburned gases, helping to create second, third and fourth combustions. This air is regulated by the Burn Rate Air Control. There are four settings: High, Medium-High, Medium-Low and Low. When the control is raised all the way up it is on the High setting and when pushed all the down it is on the Low setting. Figure 27.1.
WARNING Risk of Fire.

When set on High Burn Rate and over-riding the Automatic Combustion Control system an overfire situation can occur and may result in a chimney fire.

Overfiring will void the stove warranty

From my quad manual:

For maximum operating efficiency with the lowest emissions, follow these operating procedures:
1. Regardless of desired heat output, when loading stove, burn your Quadra-Fire with both air controls wide open for 5 to
15 minutes.
2. Regulate burn rate (heat output) by using the Primary Control (center under ashcatcher). The Start-Up Air Control (on the right)
is used for initial start-up and reloading.
3. Heat output settings: Following 5 to 15 minutes of burning with controls wide open (see #1 above):
4. Burn dry, well-seasoned wood.
Do not operate with Start-Up Air
Control in the open position in excess of 15
minutes! Risk of extreme temperatures! Prolonged
operation of this stove with the Start-
Up Air Control in the open position may cause
the combustible materials around the stove to
exceed safe temperature limits.
BTU / Hr
Below 10,000
10,000 - 15,000
15,000 - 30,000
Maximum Heat
Start-Up Air Control
Closed after 5 to 15 minutes
Closed after 5 to 15 minutes
Closed after 5 to 15 minutes
Closed after 5 to 15 minutes
*Primary Control
Pull to Stop
1” - 1-1/4” open
1-1/4” - 2-1/2” open
Fully open

The above is a chart that doesn't line up when posted here.

After thinking about it a little more we do close the startup control sometimes, especially on windier days with lots of draw.

 

[begreen]

There are two air controls on this stove, the startup air and the burn rate control. The start up air feeds extra air at the back of the firebox. It is on a timer. The Burn-Rate control feeds the primary air at the front of the stove via the airwash.

 

[farmer_luke]

There are two air controls on this stove, the startup air and the burn rate control. The start up air feeds extra air at the back of the firebox. It is on a timer. The Burn-Rate control feeds the primary air at the front of the stove via the airwash.

Interesting. You're talking about the newer quadra-fire ACC (auto combustion control)? Maybe that would be a good option for us. How does the timer work? Batteries required?

 

[begreen]

The older ACT also had two controls, one for start-up air and one for primary air. I recommend getting a simpler stove such as those two suggested.
Aesthetics were mentioned. What stoves are being considered?

 

[farmer_luke]

The older ACT also had two controls, one for start-up air and one for primary air. I recommend getting a simpler stove such as those two suggested.
Aesthetics were mentioned. What stoves are being considered?

Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of single burn rate stoves before. I don't like the thought of not being able to control air at all (even though I'm mostly too lazy to manage it appropriately). I like the look of the stoves with visible soapstone and kind of like cast iron. I guess I was just looking for something possibly a littler higher-end that wasn't plain Jane. But knowing that I'm not going to always manage the air situation religiously any stove that will be easily damaged by that I'm not interested in. I was on the fence about catalytic/hybrid but I think they would require more attention and maintenance. I actually made a kind of hasty decision and bought a Quadra-Fire 4300 Millenium today. I found one that was on hand and took it. I'm surprised how inexpensive the Quadra-Fires are compared to others and we have been mostly happy with our 3100.

 

[begreen]

Read the manual and learn how to manage both air controls on the 4300. Only have the burn control set to high for starting the fire, drop it down to medium or low once the fire is burning well.

 

[farmer_luke]

Read the manual and learn how to manage both air controls on the 4300. Only have the burn control set to high for starting the fire, drop it down to medium or low once the fire is burning well.

After looking over the manual a little I don't agree that one should "Only have the burn control set to high for starting the fire, drop it down to medium or low once the fire is burning well."

The only time I see the manual talks about a risk of over-firing is if you set the burn rate air control and startup air control to high (bypassing the ACC). Leaving the burn rate air control on high and using the ACC timer gives a "Medium-High Burn Rate - 15,000 to 30,000 BTU/hr"
"Raise the Burn Rate Air Control all the way up until it stops (top marker) to a fully open position. Slide the Start-Up Air Control all the way back until it stops (HI marker) and then pull forward until it stops. This activates the timer system (ACC)."

"When set on High Burn Rate and over-riding the Automatic Combustion Control system an overfire situation can occur and may result in a chimney fire."

 

[begreen]

Yes, this was posted earlier in the thread. The operative word is "can" occur, not will occur. An overfire can occur if the operator gets distracted and leaves the stove unattended during startup. Also noted, "This setting over-rides the timer system (ACC) so you must monitor the fire closely while in this setting.

 

[bholler]

After looking over the manual a little I don't agree that one should "Only have the burn control set to high for starting the fire, drop it down to medium or low once the fire is burning well."

The only time I see the manual talks about a risk of over-firing is if you set the burn rate air control and startup air control to high (bypassing the ACC). Leaving the burn rate air control on high and using the ACC timer gives a "Medium-High Burn Rate - 15,000 to 30,000 BTU/hr"
"Raise the Burn Rate Air Control all the way up until it stops (top marker) to a fully open position. Slide the Start-Up Air Control all the way back until it stops (HI marker) and then pull forward until it stops. This activates the timer system (ACC)."

"When set on High Burn Rate and over-riding the Automatic Combustion Control system an overfire situation can occur and may result in a chimney fire."

Do you monitor stove temps or pipe temps? I can guarantee that you overfired your stove multiple times if you run with the air wide open most of the time.

 

[kennyp2339]

@farmer_luke whats the floor space your heating w/ the upstairs stove? Total chimney height? how high are the inside ceilings? Is the space an open or closed floor plan?
Nothing wrong with burning dry cotton wood, it just burns faster, hence why I guess your saying that you burn large chunks, I would do the same if it was me.
The issue is potential overfire which can and will lead to the stove prematurely dying a horrible death if warpage, cracked welds, split metal and sagging burn tubes, if your leaving the air control open due to not enough heat, perhaps the stove is undersized for the application, or you need a blower to push more heat off the stove top so you dont need to push the stove as hard.

 

[farmer_luke]

Do you monitor stove temps or pipe temps?

I have used the round magnetic thermometers on the stove top and on the stovepipe. I think the one on the stovepipe typically was in the optimal burn area (not too cool and in the creosote formation area and not super hot). Actually, I had two on the stovepipe. One a couple feet above the stove top and another a few feet higher on the horizontal part that entered the chimney. I have also used a digital infrared thermometer just out of curiosity but don't remember how it compared. Educate me on appropriate stove top and flu temperatures. I want to make a new post about the Quadra Fire stove I bought and its air controls but we are in the middle of corn harvest and I don't have much time.

 

[begreen]

Typical stove temps will be in the 400-650º range depending on the load size and state of the fire. Ideally the stovepipe temp is at or below the stove top temp. Single-wall stove pipe thermometers read about 50% of the actual flue gas temp in the pipe. So for a 600º stovetop, a 300º single-wall stovepipe, the surface reading would be about right.

 

[farmer_luke]

@farmer_luke whats the floor space your heating w/ the upstairs stove? Total chimney height? how high are the inside ceilings? Is the space an open or closed floor plan?
Nothing wrong with burning dry cotton wood, it just burns faster, hence why I guess your saying that you burn large chunks, I would do the same if it was me.
The issue is potential overfire which can and will lead to the stove prematurely dying a horrible death if warpage, cracked welds, split metal and sagging burn tubes, if your leaving the air control open due to not enough heat, perhaps the stove is undersized for the application, or you need a blower to push more heat off the stove top so you dont need to push the stove as hard.

I'd have to do some measuring on floor space. The Quadra Fire 4300 we just got will be in a new location with a new flu setup. The total length of the flu will increase by about 6' and will be insulated where it wasn't before. How would you anticipate the height and insulation to affect things? We used to rely on the woodstove for heat more. Now it's more for convenience and enjoyment so cutting the air down and having a slower, longer fire sounds good.

Edit: I think the first 5' or so will not be insulated/Class A. Just from the ceiling to top. We have a pretty high peak but I don't remember total height.

 

[bholler]

I'd have to do some measuring on floor space. The Quadra Fire 4300 we just got will be in a new location with a new flu setup. The total length of the flu will increase by about 6' and will be insulated where it wasn't before. How would you anticipate the height and insulation to affect things? We used to rely on the woodstove for heat more. Now it's more for convenience and enjoyment so cutting the air down and having a slower, longer fire sounds good.

Edit: I think the first 5' or so will not be insulated/Class A. Just from the ceiling to top. We have a pretty high peak but I don't remember total height.

Cutting the air down will actually give you far more heat. The way you were running the old one was completely wrong and wasting allot of heat

 

[farmer_luke]

Cutting the air down will actually give you far more heat. The way you were running the old one was completely wrong and wasting allot of heat

Having the air down will give more heat from a specific quantity of wood but not more heat in a set amount of time, right? Burning with more air will make a hotter fire. If you keep adding wood much more heat will be produced into the home with more air. More heat will also go up the flu.