Wood stove heating; house designs

[kevinmoelk]

Howdy everyone, happy 2007!

I've had a home design that I've been putting together for years now. In short, it's a square, will have a shed roof, be buried 3/4 into the ground on all sides except the south facing. The south facing wall will be strawbale. The other 3 walls either concrete or earthship, probably concrete. Inside will be a timberframe structure, and accomodations to easily add a 2nd floor should the need arise.

Since I've been getting into this wood burning hobby, I've had second thoughts concerning my design. But as I was thinking purely from a design aspect, I realized that I know very little about the considerations on heating a home. I've read from several of you about owning old farm houses that are designed to be heated with wood. I'm wondering, well how is it designed to be heated with wood?

I do have a few ideas, but I'm going to keep my mouth shut and wait for you folks to answer. Thanks.

-Kevin

 

[Mike Wilson]

I've had a home design that I've been putting together for years now. In short, it's a square, will have a shed roof, be buried 3/4 into the ground on all sides except the south facing. The south facing wall will be strawbale. The other 3 walls either concrete or earthship, probably concrete. Inside will be a timberframe structure, and accomodations to easily add a 2nd floor should the need arise.

We have a few homes around here like that... they are all converted potato barns. Basically, they are cinderblock or poured concrete barns that have three sides covered in soil, and one side and the roof exposed to weather. People have been successful in converting them into homes, some with 2 floors. I'd imagine that an open floor plan with a Hearthstone Mansfield or masonry heater in the middle would work well. I also think they'd be dark, and therefore would consider using double or triple pane glass on the southern exposure, along with a few opening skylights. Put some triple cell honeycomb shades on the windows and you'll keep your insulating power when you need it. If I were doing new construction I'd do that Styrofoam insulated poured concrete as a foundation.

-- Mike

 

[Harley]

Hi, Kevin - Happy '07 to you as well

Very far from being an expert here, but from the standpoint of "farmhouse" design and how well they were planned around heating with wood... not sure that most would fit the bill for the design you are thinking. Around here, most of the farmhouses are pretty old and have been added onto quite a few times and have very low ceilings (either that was to keep the heat in the living space, or people were a lot shorter 200 years ago).

My uneducated guess would be a relatively open floor plan, with a central chimney/hearth, with a lot of insulation as you described, being mostly below grade.

 

[Roospike]

Whats up Kevin , What information are you looking for brother?

 

[kevinmoelk]

Thanks guys. Well, an open floor plan seems ideal overall, moving air around via fans, etc. Okay, but is it possible to maintain even heating temperature in nearly all rooms? Conversely, if one wanted to have the bedrooms stay a few degrees cooler, how would one accomplish that?

Also, if a second floor is added, should the stairwell be central or against an exterior wall? Does the stairwell design in itself influence the amount of heat going to the upstairs? Should there be a door(s) at the bottom of the stairs?

What influence would a 2nd stove on the 2nd floor have? Is it possible to heat an entire home (upstairs and down) with only 1 stove?

How does one avoid overheating a home?

I'm thinking as much passive design as possible, so that the use of fans or other means of "forcing" the air around is minimized. It would be great to design a home that had even temperatures upstairs and downstairs, yet at the same time had design elements incorporated so that rooms could made cooler if desired.

The questions above are intentionally vague so as to draw out responses from folks, I hope as the discussion continues we'll touch on the most effective designs.

-Kevin

 

[laynes69]

Our house is a large victorian home, at one time owned close to 500 acres when it was built. Its somewhere around 150 years old. We have 10 foot ceilings. At one time the home had at least 3 chimneys upstairs. We have 4 bedrooms and a nursery upstairs. I was talking one day to someone and I said it was funny that back then they had at least 3 to 4 coal burners going to heat the upstairs. With modern ducting and blowers, we heat the whole home with a wood furnace. With our home having 11 rooms, a single stove wouldn't heat this home. A woodfurnace does it in the ductwork. Now with alot of modern homes with the open concept, things are much easier. Downstairs is somewhat open, but upstairs, you have 1 hall and all the rooms off the hall. I couln't imagine having 4 stoves running at the same time to heat, talk about alot of wood.

 

[Roospike]

Thanks guys. Well, an open floor plan seems ideal overall, moving air around via fans, etc. Okay, but is it possible to maintain even heating temperature in nearly all rooms? Conversely, if one wanted to have the bedrooms stay a few degrees cooler, how would one accomplish that?

Also, if a second floor is added, should the stairwell be central or against an exterior wall? Does the stairwell design in itself influence the amount of heat going to the upstairs? Should there be a door(s) at the bottom of the stairs?
stairwell should be central
What influence would a 2nd stove on the 2nd floor have? Is it possible to heat an entire home (upstairs and down) with only 1 stove
I do , 1800 sf 2 story around 74° down stairs and 70° up stairs ( normally about 4° difference)

How does one avoid overheating a home?
control your heat

I'm thinking as much passive design as possible, so that the use of fans or other means of "forcing" the air around is minimized. It would be great to design a home that had even temperatures upstairs and downstairs, yet at the same time had design elements incorporated so that rooms could made cooler if desired.

The questions above are intentionally vague so as to draw out responses from folks, I hope as the discussion continues we'll touch on the most effective designs.

-Kevin

 

[kevinmoelk]

Thanks Roospike. Just out of curiosity, do you have a floor plan handy?

What kind of insulation do you have?

Stairway is central, okay, easy enough, but what about the design? Can you have an open railing stairway or should it be boxed in with drywall with a door at the top or bottom of the stairs?

-Kevin

 

[laynes69]

We have a large stairway, but you walk through a doorway then up to the stairs. Alot of people told us not to open up the stairway, which had a door, they said we would lose all of the heat upstairs. We removed it and seen no difference. I think one way to control the heat in the rooms, would be with manual dampers, or zones. One way to heat with wood and not overheat yourself would be to install a boiler with a storage tank, this would help you keep a constant heat in the home. Also with an open plan, ceiling fans would play an important role in a home. Sounds pretty creative to design a home around a wood stove, which actually is smart thinking. Saves alot of money and improves comfort.

 

[laynes69]

Our house is a large victorian home, at one time owned close to 500 acres when it was built. Its somewhere around 150 years old.

There MUST have been some energy ugrades (besides the heating system) done to the place, right?? Window, insulation??

Our home has been in the family for 40 years, which last year I purchased it from my father and started renovating it. My dad owned a business in the late 70's which was an insulating business. The walls were filled with urea-formaldahyde foam, which carries a r-value of roughly 4.5 per inch. The exterior walls are 7 to 8 inches thick. He also upgraded the windows to double hung double pane vinyl windows, with triple track storms on the outside of those. The attic is now in need of more insulation, but its cellouse which is only about 4 inches thick. Before I bought the home, I ripped out all of the ductwork, and re-did the whole ducting system. We have 4 returns and 10 supplys. Plus I reinstalled the wood furnace in series instead of parallel. We have 42 windows and this house is cheaper and easier to heat than my grandmas trailer. Its a pretty tight home, but being so old, theres some little drafts here and there. All but 2 rooms have been drywalled, and a vapor barrier installed also. Alot of work, but I agree, insulation plays a huge part on a home.

 

[Roospike]

Thanks Roospike. Just out of curiosity, do you have a floor plan handy?

What kind of insulation do you have?

Stairway is central, okay, easy enough, but what about the design? Can you have an open railing stairway or should it be boxed in with drywall with a door at the top or bottom of the stairs?

-Kevin

All the wall have blown in insulation in them now and the attic has about 16" ...Only 16" because i rewired the whole attic and going to add more insulation when finished.

Stairwell is half open at the bottom and boxed in at the top , open stairs with no doors.

I post some pics of the floorplan. The grey area is one floor add on to the home and the rest is 2 story.

 

[Roospike]

front room looking at stairs and kitchen is on the other side not shown.

 

[babalu87]

There is a reason the old Yankees designed the Cape style home.

Face the windows South and its a VERY efficient design to heat.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Thanks Roo, that gives me some ideas. Babalu, yes the yankees knew a thing or two about a thing or two.

Passive solar design is alive and well, and coming back after all the poor designs in the late 70's, 80's and 90's.

Still, lots of inefficient McMansions being built.

-Kevin

 

[Martin Strand III]

Yes, face windows south or just east of south for morning sun to help warm up early in the day.

Also, have chimney for stove(s) central in building plan and not on exterior wall. Keep it clean.

Oversize your stove to your anticipated heating area 1/4 - 1/3. You can always burn a small hot fire on warmer days. Extra BTU rating will help out when temps dip low.

Insulate to the max not forgetting window treatments.

Burn dry wood hot in a modern stove.

Be safe. Stay warm.

Aye,
Marty

 

[kevinmoelk]

Thanks for all the help guys. Just to elaborate, and these are some of the things I've considered:

One big box, no walls anywhere. Rooms to be created by large bookshelves which could me moved around, locked together and unlocked to increase the overall length of the "walls". Also, since the book shelves would not reach the ceiling, there would be natural air flow above the shelves. Kind of a loft concept.

Hallways, or creating hallways with the said bookshelf units would be avoided. I personally think hallways are a wasted space and impede traffic movement and make it hard to move furniture, etc.

Central stairwell, possibly a spiral staircase that would have a custom semi-circular block off plate to act as a "door" and separate the upstairs from downstairs.

Stove centrally located, with some kind of wood storage area and/or log chute.

Ceiling fans everywhere.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Where did that pen and paper go?

-Kevin

 

[laynes69]

Get yourself an architect design program. I use mine when I am remodeling our home. They come in handy and are fun to play around with. This way you see it in 3d. I have 3d home architect.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Get yourself an architect design program. I use mine when I am remodeling our home. They come in handy and are fun to play around with. This way you see it in 3d. I have 3d home architect.

Well, my late wife was an engineer and she has autocad, mechanical desktop (?) something or other, solidworks, and a few others on her computer. Wish I knew how to use them, they were awfully expensive.

I'm an old pencil and T-square kind of guy. Actually, I enjoy drafting and have all the curves, ink pens with different line thicknesses, etc. Something tactile about doing it the old school way.

One of my brothers recently told me about a free program on-line that can be used to draft... wish I could remember what the name was. Apparently it is the same program used to create some of the street grid elements on google earth. Does anyone know what this program is called?

-Kevin

 

[nshif]

Tubro Cad used to have a working demo program that was a free download. Took a bit to figure out but it did come with a good manual. Ive been using it for years.

(broken link removed to http://www.turbocad.com/free_downloads.asp)

 

[PAJerry]

Neat place to look at various home designs is Greenfield Village in Dearborn Michigan. Each ethnic group had their own preferences. English were generally more wealthy and put their chimneys on the ends of the house, whereas the Scots were poor and needed more heat so they built basically square houses centered around the chimney/hearth. My house was built by a Scotsman, and it is easy to heat. Our little insert does a great job of keeping everything warm because of the central location.

 

[Rhone]

I'd get a book on solar and research that route. If you're building anyway. It'll be cheaper and save you on your hot water to boot. All you'll need is a small centrally located stove for supplemental heat on those occasions it's 5F or less outside and cloudy or cloudy for several days.

I didn't know how good solar was until I met the in-laws who built a house in 1983 around solar with 8 panels. They have insulated cement floors with radiant floor heating that the panels run their water through "charging" them up. It will keep the house warm for around 3 days without sun in winter and only takes 1 day to charge back up, 2 if in the dead of winter. In summer, they shut the radiant heating off and direct all the hot water to domestic hot water use only. In fall when they engage the slab it heats their domestic hot water and charges up the slab. Until it gets around 30F at noon outside they have to keep a window or door open to prevent the house from overheating. When it gets to 5F they start to lose ground and go through a single split/day to maintain temperature, the most I've ever seen them go through was 2 splits/day during an extended cloudy and very cold spell. I think if they wanted to keep their house at a reasonable 72F they'd only need about 1/4 cord wood/year but they like to keep their house around 80F and sometimes light a fire to enjoy the flames and open windows.

Nothing like experiencing a solar house first hand in winter to see what they can do. That's in central New England, known for cold and being frequently cloudy and not the best place for solar. Imagine what it can do in sunny or less cloudy places. For heat flow dynamics of a wood stove, centrally located position and in a sunken area really helps. It acts like a cold sink, the coldest air wants to settle in the lowest part of your house and travels towards the sunken area where with your stove/insert there it gets heated and spreads around.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Hey Rhonemas, long time no see.

Thanks for the tips. I'm fairly well read on passive and active solar design concepts, general architecture, etc. I've had a few opportunities to visit solar homes, and indeed, they are amazing. Funny to think the Romans and other ancient civilizations designed around the sun, and all of a sudden it's a new modern concept that trendy architects are marketing, lol.

I must admit I've not come across, or didn't remember, the idea of a sunken area for the stove. Simple and brilliant. That will definately go into the plans. Besides that could easily be a nice space division. Maybe like a camp fire ring type setup with benches around the perimeter. That may also help facilitate a wood storage or delivery area. Hummm.

-Kevin

 

[Gooserider]

I may be a 60's refugee, but I personally think that domes are extremely cool structures - we have some friends that have one up in NH, and it's amazing how much space you get with one. According to them, it heats very well with a single early soapstone stove in the open living/dining area, with a big kitchen, den, and master bedroom on the 1st floor, plus IIRC 3 BR's on the second and a small room on the third.

Downside was they had to re-roof recently, and it was both a bear to find a roofer that would touch the place and very expensive. Of course the joke is that their dome is 95% roof...

Supposedly domes are one of the best structures for giving maximum volume for the footprint size, looking at their place I can believe it.

Gooserider

 

[kevinmoelk]

Buckminster Fuller I believe. Yeah, domes are pretty cool. I know of one person to have one, and they love it. Their only complaint is that it's hard to hang pictures on the outside walls, lol. Buy, very efficient structurally, very little lumber used, easy to build, wide open spaces, etc. The roof would be a pain in my opinion, and that is one reason I would not have one.

I'm maybe a little different than most folks though. I like homes to be open, but I'm not too excited over large open rooms and cathedral ceilings. To me that's just wasted space, that's the frugal nature I have.

I think overall the greatest viability of any alternative construction practice is strawbale or strawbale/timberframe. Speed, beauty, low cost, high insulation all lend to a system that could become mainstream, maybe.

 

[northwinds]

We are in the beginning phases of designing a 2000 square foot house that we plan to build in 2008, if we can get our present house sold next summer.

It's a passive solar hillside ranch with the south side framed in and lots of windows on the basement level and the main level, facing south. The north side will be built into the hill with few windows. The roof is designed to have overhangs which provide shade in the summer and will allow sun through in the winter. To the north of the house will be a detached four stall garage (2 x 2) with a breezeway between.

The main floor plan has the dining room on the northwest side of the house, the living room on the south central side of the house, and the kitchen on the north central side of the house. A screened-in porch is off of the dining room. The east side of the house contains the three bedrooms and 2 1/2 baths. The soapstone stove, either a Hearthstone Mansfield or a Woodstock equivalent (if it comes out), will be located in the center of the house in the living room. By it's location, the stove is designed to provide zone heating for the kitchen, dining room, and living room. There will be ceiling fans to distribute air, and we anticipate the bedrooms being a few degrees (hopefully, not too many degrees) cooler in the winter.

The plan calls for solar hot water, via panels on the roof. The main floor is to be wheelchair accessible with a tiled and drained walk-in shower adjacent to my son's bedroom. A closet in the wide, short hallway to the bedrooms is designated for an elevator, in case the basement is ever finished off, and there will be a pit for the elevator designed into the basement floor. For now, the basement will be insulated but unfinished.

I'll keep people updated as the project proceeds. I'll post pics when I get them. The design is in pdf format for now. Not quite sure if I can post that here or how to convert it to jpeg.

northwinds