Who to call to have existing woodstove installed

[isonychia]

Hi Guys,

I am looking for some help in terms of who to call to have an existing wood stove/fireplace installed in my home.

A friend offered us a cone wood stove/fireplace. We wanted to get it installed however we are running into
problems finding a company that will install an existing older unit.

The few places I called (chimney and fireplace companies) said they only install products they sell.

Another company told me the problem is most companies don't want to install an older unit for the
possible liability problems or something along those lines.

Does this sound like a problematic situation that happens when trying to install a non-new unit? I have the model number and brand of stove but I could not find any type of installation manual online or things of that nature.

I'm not sure where to go from here or who else to call. Any tips other than turning it into an outdoor fireplace or recycling it.

Thanks for the help,
iso

 

[DAKSY]

You could try googling for NFI Certified Wood Burning Technicians.
Maybe there is one in your area interested in a little extra money.

 

[Attaboy]

If this stove does not carry current EPA certification you probably will not find anyone to install it, on the other hand if it is EPA certified a licensed wood burning stove tech can do it for you.

 

[DAKSY]

A non-EPA rated wood burning unit can STILL be installed as long as it conforms to criteria listed NFPA 211...

 

[bholler]

If this stove does not carry current EPA certification you probably will not find anyone to install it, on the other hand if it is EPA certified a licensed wood burning stove tech can do it for you.

We install pre epa units all the time for customers. But with this unit a cone fireplace I would seriously try to talk a customer out of it. They may look cool but they do not heat at all.

 

[Attaboy]

We install pre epa units all the time for customers. But with this unit a cone fireplace I would seriously try to talk a customer out of it. They may look cool but they do not heat at all.

I guess then we take air pollution and safety more seriously here in Canada as no stove dealer, certified chimney sweep or tech would ever do it here. Many cities and towns here have bans on these old style burners. The city of Montreal in 2016 went even 1 step further they have outright outlawed any fireplace or non current EPA stove, the Montreal bylaw gives only so much time to report and advise them of your current fireplace or non conforming wood stove, financial penalties can be in the thousands of dollars if the owner does not do so. You can only replace the outlawed fireplace and stoves with EPA units certified for 2 grams or less.

 

[bholler]

I guess then we take air pollution and safety more seriously here in Canada as no stove dealer, certified chimney sweep or tech would ever do it here. Many cities and towns here have bans on these old style burners. The city of Montreal in 2016 went even 1 step further they have outright outlawed any fireplace or non current EPA stove, the Montreal bylaw gives only so much time to report and advise them of your current fireplace or non conforming wood stove, financial penalties can be in the thousands of dollars if the owner does not do so. You can only replace the outlawed fireplace and stoves with EPA units certified for 2 grams or less.

Is it against the law to install them in all of canada? If not I guarantee that there are guys that will gladly install them. Even if it is illegal I am sure there are still guys doing it. You do know that a pre epa wood stove burning good wood and being operated properly will burn cleaner that an epa certifed stove burning wet wood incorrectly right. I am all for more efficient modern stoves. But It is still perfectly legal to install them here and some people simply dont want a new stove or don't have the money for one. Does that mean I should not give them a proper safe install job?

 

[isonychia]

Thanks for all the replies.

Here is all the info about the unit. Same style as a Malm or Preway.

MH 8154
Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
® Listed
Fireplace Stove
NO. B568296
Superior Fireplace Co., Fullerton, California, Baltimore Maryland

I understand it's not the greatest heat source. It's purpose was not intended to be a primary heat source.

We wanted a fireplace but do not have one. Obviously we would rather a full blown brick fireplace but the cost is too much right now. Since this was being given to us I thought we could have it installed. It was existing in my friends house when they purchased it last year. They used it a few times. They didn't have a need for it so they removed it and offered it to us.
Apparently getting it installed is not that easy.

I assume since it's old it will not be EPA certified?
How would I go about finding out if it conforms to criteria listed NFPA 211... or find out any other info that would be requested by an installer before they would agree to work on it?

Thanks,
iso

 

[bholler]

I guess then we take air pollution and safety more seriously here in Canada

And I would like to know what an epa rating has to do with safety.

 

[Attaboy]

Is it against the law to install them in all of canada?

I do not know for all 10 provinces and the various territories. I am sure there are probably jacks of all trades who possibly do installations, However the problem with that is if you never had a wood burning appliance before you now need to advise your insurance company who may have issues with it , they will ask questions and may request a visit by an inspector. I know in the town where I live as in many others the fire dept records if the residence has a fireplace, wood stove, propane or gas stove so they have this information on hand to be better equipped and prepared in case they receive a call. The fire dept normally visits homes every five years or so to do their usual prevention. I have been told by several firemen that there are far fewer chimney fires and house fires related to wood burning appliances since the advent of EPA stoves, I guess chimneys are cleaner.

 

[bholler]

However the problem with that is if you never had a wood burning appliance before you now need to advise your insurance company who may have issues with it ,

Yes but there are many insurance companies here in the states where the op is that have no issue with it.

I know in the town where I live as in many others the fire dept records if the residence has a fireplace, wood stove, propane or gas stove so they have this information on hand to be better equipped and prepared in case they receive a call. The fire dept normally visits homes every five years or so to do their usual prevention

I dont know of anywhere here that does that.

I have been told by several firemen that there are far fewer chimney fires and house fires related to wood burning appliances since the advent of EPA stoves, I guess chimneys are cleaner.

Yes that is true but allot of that is due to the fact that many older installs were also not done to today's safety standards. A properly installed and properly operated pre epa stove is just as safe as an epa approved one.

 

[bholler]

I have been told by several firemen that there are far fewer chimney fires and house fires related to wood burning appliances since the advent of EPA stoves, I guess chimneys are cleaner.

But yes newer stoves are easier to burn cleaner than the old ones without a doubt. But burnt incorrectly or operated incorrectly a new stove can absolutely make a mess of the chimney and cause a chimney fire.

 

[velvetfoot]

This case is an open fireplace. I'm sure there's plenty of air to keep smoke down to a minimum.

 

[isonychia]

Well I'm glad my question has sparked such tenacity...LOL

 

[xman23]

I don't want to imply it's a trivial job. But a handy person that can follow the manufactures instructions can do the job. The chimney chase and the penetration thru the roof is the biggest challenge.

 

[bholler]

But a handy person that can follow the manufactures instructions can do the job.

The problem is they do not have and cant find the manufacturers directions. And many of the cone fireplaces I have seen are designed to only work with the chimney sold with the unit which is probably no longer available. But without more info from the op we have no idea

 

[xman23]

The problem is they do not have and cant find the manufacturers directions. And many of the cone fireplaces I have seen are designed to only work with the chimney sold with the unit which is probably no longer available. But without more info from the op we have no idea

So what would you do if you couldn't find the stove manufactures clearances? I assume the chimney would not be an issue if it was new and used there instructions.

 

[bholler]

So what would you do if you couldn't find the stove manufactures clearances?

Go by nfpa211 standards for a non listed appliance.

I assume the chimney would not be an issue if it was new and used there instructions.

It would be if you cant mate up the fireplace to the chimney. Which is what I have seen with many cone fireplaces.

 

[isonychia]

bholler, you asked if the chimney is original. I don't know. The whole unit looks original to the house. It doesn't look like it was added in the 90's. My guess is it is from the 70's or 80's.

The fireplace has the vertical tube out of the unit with the 90 deg elbow and the box that was in the wall. From there it existed outside then 90deg up the exterior wall into a vertical tube to the top of the roof. The vertical portion on the outside of the house has not been removed. So all I have is the fireplace, vertical tube, 90 elbow and wall box.

What I don't understand about this problem is what does the rest of the world do with these older wood stoves/fireplaces, even the traditional wood stoves. I see people selling them all over the place. Is the only way to get one installed to buy new? It's just an odd problem I didn't expect to have.

iso

 

[Xtrl9]

What I don't understand about this problem is what does the rest of the world do with these older wood stoves/fireplaces, even the traditional wood stoves. I see people selling them all over the place. Is the only way to get one installed to buy new? It's just an odd problem I didn't expect to have.

Well any jack off all trades, could start a chimney company or even a storefront that sells the appliances can come out an install anything at all if you pay them. Not all people in the yellow pages under chimney are CSIA certified and not all CSIA certified people are going to do the best job. I couldn't get anyone to do a block off plate for instance when I was gathering quotes for example and I had one company that wanted to drop a 7" liner down and reduce it to 6" at the back of my wood burning insert. Not all contractors are going to pull a permit, or might get the home owner to pull the permit themselves. In the second case if/when you fail inspection or the job goes sideways its your name on the ticket and you are liable.

So how do people buy/sell/install the secondhand preEPA stoves? they pay cash load it up in a truck with a couple guys and shove it into whatever hole in the wall or roundish chunk of steel pipe they can get to fit over the things and they don't tell the locality jack. I had no idea how many wood stoves I've seen in the homes of family and friends that are illegal installs. When I told them some of what I learned they said "house is still here, and I've been doing it this way for years". I think the reputable people are shying away from this because they don't want the legal backlash. I think a retro cone fireplace might look nice in your love nest but for heating it's just going to be a waste of wood.

 

[bholler]

What I don't understand about this problem is what does the rest of the world do with these older wood stoves/fireplaces, even the traditional wood stoves. I see people selling them all over the place. Is the only way to get one installed to buy new? It's just an odd problem I didn't expect to have.

No you can absolutely still install old units And most sweeps that I know will do it. That is as long as there are no local restrictions on installing non compliant appliances. I know it is legal in NJ but don't know about your specific area you would have to check with your codes dept.

So how do people buy/sell/install the secondhand preEPA stoves? they pay cash load it up in a truck with a couple guys and shove it into whatever hole in the wall or roundish chunk of steel pipe they can get to fit over the things and they don't tell the locality jack. I had no idea how many wood stoves I've seen in the homes of family and friends that are illegal installs. When I told them some of what I learned they said "house is still here, and I've been doing it this way for years". I think the reputable people are shying away from this because they don't want the legal backlash. I think a retro cone fireplace might look nice in your love nest but for heating it's just going to be a waste of wood.

In many areas there is nothing illegal about installing an old appliance. And there is nothing inherently dangerous about it either. Yes you need to know how to do it but it can be perfectly safe. There will be absolutely no legal backlash at all in most areas of the country.

 

[Xtrl9]

In many areas there is nothing illegal about installing an old appliance. And there is nothing inherently dangerous about it either. Yes you need to know how to do it but it can be perfectly safe. There will be absolutely no legal backlash at all in most areas of the country.

I'm not trying to discredit all professionals especially not the guy who helped me get my install done with the good stuff however, i have seen firsthand what lawyers are capable of and will never underestimate their abilty to get some money to change hands again.

 

[bholler]

I'm not trying to discredit all professionals especially not the guy who helped me get my install done with the good stuff however, i have seen firsthand what lawyers are capable of and will never underestimate their abilty to get some money to change hands again.

But what legal backlash could there be if it is legal to install an old unit in that area and the install is dont to code? Believe me I am very aware and careful about liability issues and if done right there are none just because the stove is not epa approved.