Which Quadrafire??--S4300 or 5700

[RonB]

I will be purchasing either the Quad S4300 or the 5700 and I am unsure which one is the right size for my house. I currently have an older Step Top Vestal wood stove (double doors) circa mid 1980's (model # 2933-B). It is a large stove that someone from Vestal said is rated at 2200 sq. ft. Vestal could not provide me with BTU's produced by my old stove because no one tested for that prior to the new EPA regulations. I would estimate the firebox as 6-7 cu. ft. The stove is well sized for my house but it is not airtight nor efficent when compared to modern stoves.

The stove sits in the finished 1000 sq. ft walkout basement (the garage is adjacent to the family room and is an unheated 500 sq. ft.). My forced air furnace sets within 3 feet from the stove and I am able to draw air from around the stove directly into the cold air return on the furnace. I easily heat the entire 1500 sq. ft. 30 year old Ranch style house on the upper level as well as the family room where the stove is located for a total of 2,500 sq. ft. I live is southern lower Michigan and usually once or twice a winter it gets down to -10 or -15 degrees below zero.

I have been to 3 Quad dealers and they all are somewhat ambiguous about what size I need. All I am trying to do is switch out my old stove (which heats everything perfectly) for a new effiecent one with equal heating ability without over doing it (I don't want to always have to dampen a stove that is too large).

S4300 is rated at 1800-2800 sq. ft. , Firebox is 2.4 cu. ft., Cord Wood BTU is 10,000-70,000.
5700 is rated at 2000-3500 sq. ft., Firebox is 3.44 cu. ft., Cord Wood BTU is 10,000-80,000+.

I have tried emailing Quadrafire direct but have not got a response yet. What advice would the friends at Hearth.com have for me??

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

i would say 4300 because your not going to get that effcient transfer through your ducts, and the 5700 would overheat the room that its in.

 

[RonB]

Overheating the room the stove is in typically happens now with the stove I have. The stove/family room area generally runs about 80 degrees ( too hot for comfort and use) but the upper level of my home (where we spend our time) is 74-76 degrees and the farthest bedrooms 70 degrees. I am happy enough with these temperatures and my hope is to find the right size stove that would duplicate these and yet still be efficient and correctly sized to the house and climate. The latter point (correct sizing) brings me back to my original post and dilemma. I don't want to spend $2300. on a stove and wish I would have bought the next size up. Nor do I want to spend $2500. on the largest stove and always have to run it so constricted that frequent chimney cleanings would be required. That is why I am asking for others input and appreciate your response thus far.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

your comparison should be relativly easy to your current stove then. Figure out how many cubic feet your current stove is, and guess its efficiency. Lets say somewhere in the 40-50% range for a old stove, and 60-70% for a new stove. So a new stove with a slighly smaller firebox would do the job as well as the current setup (if its old) and a stove with a larger firebox would produce more heat then your currently getting. No opinions needed, just measure your current firebox. Keep in mind that you can burn modern stoves no less then 60% of capacity to achieve good efficient burning, in otherwords you cant put 5 lbs of wood in a firebox thats designed to hold 50lbs and expect it to burn right, you would need to put in no less then 30 lbs to make it burn right....
FWIW, i have sold mabey 2 5700's in the last 3 years. There way to big for most applications. The quads through a TON of heat. If you want a larger stove that doesnt get 650* look at a hearthstone mansfield or a woodstock.

 

[TMonter]

Ron,

I heat 1600 square feet of a split level home with a Quad 3100i insert and a friend of mine does 2000 square feet of a two level home with a Quad 3100 free standing. I'd say the 4300 as it doesn't sound like you need the extra heat the 5700 would have. How high do you turn your current stove and what is your current stove?

 

[Roospike]

Quadra-fire Questions thread
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4703/

I'm going to have to be the odd ball as say go with the bigger stove.

As MSG stated in the "Quadra-fire Questions" thread you have to figure to take off about 1/3 of what the stove is rated for. Even in real world and the Quad is rated up to 3500 sf you would have a real hard time heating an average home 3500 sf with one single stove.

Just my .o2

 

[RonB]

your comparison should be relativly easy to your current stove then. Figure out how many cubic feet your current stove is, and guess its efficiency. Lets say somewhere in the 40-50% range for a old stove, and 60-70% for a new stove. So a new stove with a slighly smaller firebox would do the job as well as the current setup (if its old) and a stove with a larger firebox would produce more heat then your currently getting. No opinions needed, just measure your current firebox. Keep in mind that you can burn modern stoves no less then 60% of capacity to achieve good efficient burning, in otherwords you cant put 5 lbs of wood in a firebox thats designed to hold 50lbs and expect it to burn right, you would need to put in no less then 30 lbs to make it burn right....
FWIW, i have sold mabey 2 5700's in the last 3 years. There way to big for most applications. The quads through a TON of heat. If you want a larger stove that doesnt get 650* look at a hearthstone mansfield or a woodstock.

Thanks MSG for your analysis. I like the way you think! It makes sense to equate the two stoves as you have suggested. I will do some accurate measuring of my Vestal's firebox tomorrow (when it has cooled somewhat) and do some math. The biggest challenge will be to accurately nail down the Cubic feet in the step top area of the stove. Do you know if Quads or other manufacturers measure the whole cubic foot area even under the step top as part of their firebox measurement? In other words, I need to use the same measuring technique as Quadrafire does if I am to get an accurate comparison between my old and their new one.

 

[wg_bent]

Quadra-fire Questions thread
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4703/

I'm going to have to be the odd ball as say go with the bigger stove.

As MSG stated in the "Quadra-fire Questions" thread you have to figure to take off about 1/3 of what the stove is rated for. Even in real world and the Quad is rated up to 3500 sf you would have a real hard time heating an average home 3500 sf with one single stove.

Just my .o2

I'm with Spike. If you have to ask the question, go bigger. You can always run smaller fires. Either stove damped down during a burn is the way it's intended to operate. My stove with air all the way down will still produce a massive fireball of secondary due to the non-controlled secondary air intake. The Quads work the same way.

The larger stove will give you more options on how much heat you want to produce, and less limitations on the high end.

 

[RonB]

Ron,

I heat 1600 square feet of a split level home with a Quad 3100i insert and a friend of mine does 2000 square feet of a two level home with a Quad 3100 free standing. I'd say the 4300 as it doesn't sound like you need the extra heat the 5700 would have. How high do you turn your current stove and what is your current stove?

Thanks for your input TMonter. What part of the country and what is climate where you and your friends home is located? My stove is an old Step Top Vestal (20 years old?). It is not efficient nor air tight. It has double doors on the front with a large air control knob that spins on each door. When doors are closed there is still air gaps in the middle where the two doors swing together. After startup the air controls are always in the closed position. Because there is adequate air leaking thru the doors as described above I maintain a good fire and the stove pipe temp measures 275-300 located on the stove pipe just before it goes into the chimney. Cold nights like tonight with outside air at 9 degrees I am able to also close a manual damper in the stove pipe. Still get adequate enough flow under this condition to have embers in the morning.

 

[Roospike]

Im not sure how Quadrafire measures there cubic feet of the fire box but when i measured the inside of the Pacific Energy Summit on the onside of the fire bricks to the the top under the secondary baffle i cam up with 2.96 cubic feet and its advertised as 3.0 .

I thought it was precaud that said the quad was measured cf without the bricks and not with.

 

[TMonter]

From what you describe I bet the 4300 would suit your needs quite nicely. I highly recommend the Outside Air Kit as that way you aren't pulling cold outside air into your house to replace the air the stove is using. It basically helps prevent air infiltration and increases the overall home heating efficiency.

Roo is right that a bigger stove might not be a detriment, but bigger stoves are a little harder to keep burning efficiently if the fire is small. It's also going to cost you a bit more.

Myself, I live in north Idaho, I burn seasoned loads of red fir (Douglas Fir) and tamarack (Larch) which is pretty decent wood. I usually don't have to clean my chimney more than two-three times a season and then it's just to clear out the rain cap with the bird screen. I typically see stack temps up around 280-325 with average around 300-305 and I usually burn the stove on low most of the time.

Seasonal weather here is 30's mid October until late November then it's usually below freezing for 3 months. We usually get 2-4 weeks of really cold weather below 5 degrees. Mid march it starts to warm up and daytime temps get mid 40's sometimes low 50's. Nights are still near or below freezing.

The house stays 75 degrees even during sub zero weather. The only time my 3100 struggles is if the temperature drops below 20 degrees. By struggles I mean I can't run the stove below half and get enough heat output. That's when the small englander downstairs gets fired up.

 

[Gunner]

You are in mich and looking to heat 2500 sqft. You estimate your current stove to be 6-7cuft (thats massive) I would go with the bigger stove for sure. I heat 1800sqft with a 3.0cuft firebox and push it hard now and then when it is COLD. 3.44cuft for 2500sqft sounds about right. Min 1" of ash plus a 2" coal bed really shrinks the firebox in the dead of winter.

If your current stove is really 6-7cuft and you are happy with the heat output, I think you'll be disapointed with a 2.4cuft stove EPA or not.

 

[RonB]

You are in mich and looking to heat 2500 sqft. You estimate your current stove to be 6-7cuft (thats massive) I would go with the bigger stove for sure. I heat 1800sqft with a 3.0cuft firebox and push it hard now and then when it is COLD. 3.44cuft for 2500sqft sounds about right. Min 1" of ash plus a 2" coal bed really shrinks the firebox in the dead of winter.

If your current stove is really 6-7cuft and you are happy with the heat output, I think you'll be disapointed with a 2.4cuft stove EPA or not.

Yeah Gunner I am not kidding about the size of my current firebox. I will measure it accurately tomorrow though. I am embarassed that it is so big. One thing to remember on my 2500 sq. ft. is that the stove sits in the lower walkout basement with 1000 sq. ft. and the heat rises and radiates or is blown up to the remaining 1500 sq. ft. above it. It would be more difficult to heat and maintain heat for 2500 sq. ft. if it was all on one level.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

so your current set up is 6 cf?? that has to be a old inefficent beast. So let be conservative and say its 30% efficient. You get rougly 22,000 btu's per cube of firebox, so that would roughly make your stove 132,000 btus, at 30 % efficiency that would leave the stove producing about 40,000 BTU's. So lets take the 4300 at 65,000 btus at 70% efficiency it will produce 45,000 Btus.
How big is the chimney that the new stove is going on?

 

[BrotherBart]

Seven cubic feet is the volume of a 55 gallon drum. That has to be one big ass stove. Or it has a flying red horse painted on the side of it.

 

[Gunner]

Ron there is now way you will be happy with a 2.4cu stove comming from 6-7cu beast. You will be overfiring the snot out of it. If the stove was on the main level then OK, but you are trying to heat the whole house from the basement. Overheating the basement is not an issue, and is to be expected when trying to heat a house from the basement alone. If you are looking to recreate your setup with a cleaner stove and use less wood get the bigger one.

Just to give you some perspective:

BrotherBart has I believe a 3.5cu stove heating the same sqft as you but he is in Virginia...not as cold.

Roo, Willhound, and myself are heating 2000sqft or less with 3.0cu....now how are going to heat 2500sqft in MI with a 2.4cu stove???

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

the inital space the stove is in is too small for a 3.0+ box, and heat rises...his huge stove is hugely ineffiecent.. I dont realy care to much, i think the 4300 is plenty.. but what the hey buy a 5700.

 

[RonB]

so your current set up is 6 cf?? that has to be a old efficent beast. So let be conservative and say its 30% efficient. You get rougly 22,000 btu's per cube of firebox, so that would roughly make your stove 132,000 btus, at 30 % efficiency that would leave the stove producing about 40,000 BTU's. So lets take the 4300 at 65,000 btus at 70% efficiency it will produce 45,000 Btus.
How big is the chimney that the new stove is going on?

Did the math today on the old step top Vestal. The firebox (without the step portion) is 4.99 c.f. The step portion of the stove adds another 1.25 c.f. Total would be 6.24 c.f. Having a Golden Flue contractor (insulated lightweight concrete) install a new lining in my masonary chimney. They recommend a round 7" flue size for a 6" outlet stove. Total chimney height is about 16-18' plus 4-5' stovepipe from stove to chimney.

I'm curious where you got the number of 22,000 btu's per cube of firebox for my old stove. Vestal did say it was rated to heat 2200 s.f.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

its not a written rule.. it just kindof works out that way. Its not exact, just a rule of thumb.
I would recommed the correct size liner for the stove you pick. If your going with a 6" stove i would go with a 6" liner.

 

[BrotherBart]

I personally wouldn't lock myself in by getting a poured seven inch lining. I would get it poured as eight inches. If draft isn't sufficient then a six inch stainless can be pulled through it. But it would also give you, and or future owners of the house, the option of installing a cat stove which almost always means that you need an eight inch flue.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

i thought the only people making a 8" cat was VC and that was only on a few models? Most cat stoves are 8" ?
I dont think the draft would be to good with a quad on a 8" concrete flue, it might work but i think 6" would be better. I was under the impression that 99.9% of the stove out there today for sale are 6". I could be wrong...

 

[TMonter]

Ron,

Any reason you're not going with a new stainless steel liner? A stainless liner is easy to install yourself if you're somewhat handy and they work great. I installed mine in about half a day and I even insulated mine with 1/2" of insulation. It might end up being cheaper to go with a stainless liner as well.

 

[BrotherBart]

i thought the only people making a 8" cat was VC and that was only on a few models? Most cat stoves are 8" ?
I dont think the draft would be to good with a quad on a 8" concrete flue, it might work but i think 6" would be better. I was under the impression that 99.9% of the stove out there today for sale are 6". I could be wrong...

Buck cats, Blaze King cats, VC cats. Every cat stove I looked at wanted to belch into an eight inch pipe.

 

[RonB]

Ron,

Any reason you're not going with a new stainless steel liner? A stainless liner is easy to install yourself if you're somewhat handy and they work great. I installed mine in about half a day and I even insulated mine with 1/2" of insulation. It might end up being cheaper to go with a stainless liner as well.

Had a chimney fire a year ago and the insurance has already written the check for a new flue liner. I chose the Golden Flue over the stainless. Here is their web site. You might find it interesting:

(broken link removed to http://www.goldenflue.com/golden.html) (sorry, wasn't able to make it a link) Ron

 

[RonB]

its not a written rule.. it just kindof works out that way. Its not exact, just a rule of thumb.
I would recommed the correct size liner for the stove you pick. If your going with a 6" stove i would go with a 6" liner.

That is what I conveyed to the contractor, but they have had a lot of experience with wood stove intstalls. They recommend 1" over my stove pipe size because any creosote in a 6" flue will then reduce it to less than 6". I think it just gives you a little cushion until you get around to cleaning the flue (which I hope I only need once a year).