We have just moved into a new home and are looking to take a little bit of the ouch out of our heating bills this winter. We live in Northern Virginia so the winters are chilly, but not too severe. We will probably be converting our propane furnace to a dual fuel system with a heat pump and propane back up. The house is 1120 sqft above grade which includes a very open living/dining/kitchen area with cathedral ceilings and three bedrooms down a hallway. There is an open stairway to a finished basement area of 550 sqft that has only one air vent. The rest is unfinished, but used quite regularly as a laundry room and ping pong table central. This portion is insulated pretty well. I stay at home all day with my children. We use the finished basement area as the children's homeschool area and playroom, primarily during the day. I'd like to put in a woodstove to make use of abundant firewood available to us, but I'm not sure where to put it. From reading other posts it seems that a basement placement will not adequately warm the main level. But, I am guessing that the basement is going to be quite cold in the winter since it is below grade and not well vented and we do spend a large portion of the day down there. Should we place the woodstove in the basement to take the chill off down there while we're down there during the day and use the heat pump to heat the main level all day? Or should we place the woodstove on the main level where we need heat 24 hours a day and somehow heat the basement with space heaters or the like? Would any heat migrate downstairs from the upper level or would it be just freezing beyond space heater help (the upstairs woodstove would be about 12 feet in front of the stairs and facing directly toward them)? Are two woodstoves worth the extra investment? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Welcome, this is a frequently asked question. If you search on 'stove in basement' you'll find lots of threads on the topic.
Whether heat would convect up to the main house depends on how open the basement is to the main floor and the stove location. The stove is an area heater so it is usually best to locate it where the heat is desired. If the use of the basement is infrequent then I would opt for installing the stove on the main floor and use an oil filled space heater in the basement room.
Whether heat would convect up to the main house depends on how open the basement is to the main floor and the stove location. The stove is an area heater so it is usually best to locate it where the heat is desired. If the use of the basement is infrequent then I would opt for installing the stove on the main floor and use an oil filled space heater in the basement room.
The first thing I would consider is where would you prefer the stove to be - main floor or basement. Is the stove just for heat, or is it going to be the meeting place for the whole family - like in a den or living rooom, to enjoy being around it? Maybe it's both.
A main floor install, given your floor plan, sounds pretty good. That would get a lot of heat into you main living space without a lot of effort.
One thing to consider is that wood can be messy and is this a consideration? Would you want the stove in the basement - for possibly a future den and to keep the wood/mess out of sight when company comes over?
A lot of posters on this board heat their house from a lower level, be it a basement or first floor of a two story house so you can be pretty certain that wherever you put the stove, you ought to be able to heat most of your house. It will be harder to get heat to go downstairs than up though.
What stoves are you considering? Do you have a chimney or will you have to construct one?
Good luck,
Bill
A main floor install, given your floor plan, sounds pretty good. That would get a lot of heat into you main living space without a lot of effort.
One thing to consider is that wood can be messy and is this a consideration? Would you want the stove in the basement - for possibly a future den and to keep the wood/mess out of sight when company comes over?
A lot of posters on this board heat their house from a lower level, be it a basement or first floor of a two story house so you can be pretty certain that wherever you put the stove, you ought to be able to heat most of your house. It will be harder to get heat to go downstairs than up though.
What stoves are you considering? Do you have a chimney or will you have to construct one?
Good luck,
Bill
Welcome, blue.
On the other hand, what makes your question unusual is that you'll be using the basement intensively as a schoolroom. I would think that if you have abundant wood and many willing hands to gather, carry, and haul ashes, you have a lot of the battle won right there. I'd at least consider holding off with the heat pump/fuel oil system and see how far you can get heating with wood.
Having a woodstove in your classroom will add ambiance and comfort, and make it easy to tend. I'd take that any day over a space heater. It could be a small stove that you burn there with only the intent of keeping your schoolroom warm and keeping the chill out of your walls. Then you could put a whole-house heater upstairs, where it will be easier to process more wood and ash, and where the heat will distribute more easily. The chimney will cost you more with two stoves, obviously, but in the climate you describe, and with you home all day, it's worth pushing the numbers around and seeing what kind of a payback you'd get. I would think that the stoves would pay for themselves more quickly than the heat pump--but I don't know that much about heat pumps. I would also think that long-term maintenance would be cheaper and easier with the stoves.
I heated my two-story house with a parlor stove centrally-located downstairs, in central Alaska. My lower level is cut into a hillside, with the north side and northern ends of the east and west walls earth-sheltered. It worked. And don't be afraid of the mess-you set up systems for dealing with that and it doesn't have to be a problem.
On the other hand, what makes your question unusual is that you'll be using the basement intensively as a schoolroom. I would think that if you have abundant wood and many willing hands to gather, carry, and haul ashes, you have a lot of the battle won right there. I'd at least consider holding off with the heat pump/fuel oil system and see how far you can get heating with wood.
Having a woodstove in your classroom will add ambiance and comfort, and make it easy to tend. I'd take that any day over a space heater. It could be a small stove that you burn there with only the intent of keeping your schoolroom warm and keeping the chill out of your walls. Then you could put a whole-house heater upstairs, where it will be easier to process more wood and ash, and where the heat will distribute more easily. The chimney will cost you more with two stoves, obviously, but in the climate you describe, and with you home all day, it's worth pushing the numbers around and seeing what kind of a payback you'd get. I would think that the stoves would pay for themselves more quickly than the heat pump--but I don't know that much about heat pumps. I would also think that long-term maintenance would be cheaper and easier with the stoves.
I heated my two-story house with a parlor stove centrally-located downstairs, in central Alaska. My lower level is cut into a hillside, with the north side and northern ends of the east and west walls earth-sheltered. It worked. And don't be afraid of the mess-you set up systems for dealing with that and it doesn't have to be a problem.
im a believer in "if you live there, heat there" if ya dont, take it upstairs. IOW if you use the basement a reasonable amount , put the stove there, if not then maybe go with a unit up topside.
that said if you consider a basement stove go big 3.0CF or more, the heat will make it upstairs but you have to overcome the "thermal mass" of the basement first concrete block walls etc (especially if exposed) once in season though if you intend to heat primarily with wood it works well as the retained heat allows for more to get upstairs after the slower start when you first fire up.
remember too, if you "go upstairs' with the stove , heat dont decend (bad grammar but i type like i talk, sorry) so the basement will not realize any of the heat generated upstairs. however you can heat the upstairs with less stove say a 2.0CF "ish" unit
hope this helps ya
that said if you consider a basement stove go big 3.0CF or more, the heat will make it upstairs but you have to overcome the "thermal mass" of the basement first concrete block walls etc (especially if exposed) once in season though if you intend to heat primarily with wood it works well as the retained heat allows for more to get upstairs after the slower start when you first fire up.
remember too, if you "go upstairs' with the stove , heat dont decend (bad grammar but i type like i talk, sorry) so the basement will not realize any of the heat generated upstairs. however you can heat the upstairs with less stove say a 2.0CF "ish" unit
hope this helps ya
The problem is gonna be that a big stove in the basement is going to make it miserable at times when class is in session down there. I had my office in the basement for a few years and from a cold start in the morning it was two or three hours until the place was evenly heated and anything started going upstairs. The offset for me was that the glass in the stove door was aimed right at my desk so I was warmed up pretty quick.
I was in a 1,000 sq. ft. basement but had my office half of it blocked off from the rest and insulation half way down the walls. Using a stove rated for 1,000 sq. ft.
If you are gonna teach down there, I wouldn't over-gun on a stove in that space. To heat the house put a stove on the main floor for that.
I was in a 1,000 sq. ft. basement but had my office half of it blocked off from the rest and insulation half way down the walls. Using a stove rated for 1,000 sq. ft.
If you are gonna teach down there, I wouldn't over-gun on a stove in that space. To heat the house put a stove on the main floor for that.
Yup. 550 ft² doesn't require much of a stove to make it comfy. You might read lots of "basement installation" threads on these forums, but for the most part they are about situations where the basement is not normally occupied, just the best place to put a woodburner in those particular homes. In those cases, they go with big stoves, hoping that the heat will find its way upstairs into where the folks spend their time. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. If you and your children are going to spend a substantial amount of time in the basement area (which it sounds to me like you are), then you would want a very modestly sized woodstove, if that's the way you decide to go. Quite honestly, I'd say that if you really want to get into woodburning for heat, then start researching stoves to install upstairs and heat your home from there. Don't expect heat to travel down. The school/play space downstairs can be heated just fine with any of a number of much simpler solutions, some of which have already been mentioned. Rick
I envisioned a little Squirrel stove down there to heat the schoolroom--small footprint, quick hot fire, and you can get it with offset side shields that help distribute heat and also minimize the chance of little people getting burned on the sides of the stove.
If you go that route, position the stove on the other side of the schoolroom from the stairs, and be hyper-vigilent about a safe installation, avoiding stacks of flammables sitting around, and keeping the floor picked up so that the path to the stairs never becomes circuitous. And make fire safety and escape drills part of the curriculum. Stay warm and safe.
If you go that route, position the stove on the other side of the schoolroom from the stairs, and be hyper-vigilent about a safe installation, avoiding stacks of flammables sitting around, and keeping the floor picked up so that the path to the stairs never becomes circuitous. And make fire safety and escape drills part of the curriculum. Stay warm and safe.
Thanks for all of the advice. We do not have a chimney and will need to construct one. We would keep a fire path clear and do have a door and a window to the backyard that can be used in case of fire as well as the stairs. But, I had not considered the difficulty of keeping the kids stuff away from the stove until just now. They tend to throw things about and are often down there alone. We have not started to choose a stove yet since we aren't sure what we are trying to heat and from where. We plan to visit a showroom soon, but I wanted to have some idea what we were looking for. I am leaning toward a stove in the basement that will keep that coldest part of the house cozy all day and then supplementing with either a heat pump or another stove upstairs. If we did do two stoves, would it save money to have them located one above the other? I don't know if it is possible for them to share part of the chimney. That would mean the lower one would have to go in the unfinished area which is probably not ideal. But, it is insulated, has a door to the finished portion and has air vents in it. That would also solve the problem of the children getting hurt or starting a fire since they aren't allowed in there alone. How much heat would I llikely lose by putting it there as opposed to the finished portion? It might be worth it from a safety standpoint, but a stove in the room does sound cozy too. I did plan on keeping the door open to it anyway at least some of the times so the laundrey aread and ping pong table areas are not too cold. The only part of the house above the finished portion is bedrooms which would not be where we'd want the upstairs stove. We may also just go with a heat pump for heating the upstairs, but it is about a $6,000 investment and would cost about $2000 a year to heat the house according to the HVAC guy. Still cheaper than propane, but ouch!
Your power must be awfully expensive or that is a very inefficient heat pump. If your electric is about .11/KWh I would anticipate the average heating cost to be under $200 in the coldest months and more like $50 in the milder months of winter. And that is without the wood supplement. To get that kind of efficiency insist on a heat pump with at least a 9.0 HSPF. Some good mini-split systems will do a lot better than that. Check on a Fujitsu 12RLS unit for the upstairs. Daikin also makes good units. With a good heat pump and the wood supplement I would anticipate the electrical heat to cost less than $300 a season.
bluemountainmama said:
It sounds like your kids are youngish, but also understand limits. I think you can get away with a stove in the schoolroom with some limits understood and enforced. If they're still in the tipsy toddler stage, you can put up a stove fence around it. If not, this might be the year to determine that you're going to get organized and disciplined about stuff in the schoolroom/playroom.
That looks different in different situations, but I'm sure you can figure it out: it might be shelves for books, a shelf and desk for your teaching materials, a set of cubbies or bins for toys, milkcrates for each child for his or her books, stacked at the end of the day. You could even get some runners that designate a path that is kept clear of books, toys, etc. at all costs. If they throw things about, let them know that any toys left laying about go into the Black Hole and must be earned back out with a chore. After that happens a time or two, even littles get the notion.
Good to hear that you have more than one exit from the rabbit hole--much safer. And an even more important reason to start practicing firedrills--you don't want some kids scrambling for one door and some for another at the same time.
An alternative to having to choose upstairs or downstairs is if you can get two smaller stoves at reasonable prices or second hand, you can put one in each space and use it when you need it. I have a small stove upstairs i use during the shoulder seasons and on occasion when it gets unusually cold for southern maryland and a larger stove i run as a primary downstairs. going that route, you only have to use it when you will be using the area and you wont be run out because of a big stove heating a smaller area.
juat a thought
cass
juat a thought
cass
We have a house similar in size to your home, and when we built it, put the stove in the basement, with a wall (insulated) in the basement to split it in half, with the garage on the other half. The stove was a large Earth Stove, and when we didn't spend much time down there, we would run it pretty warm, and it helped with lowering propane use. We finished the rest of the basement, and wondered why the old garage would not get very warm, and realized that wall was insulated, and heat was not passing through it well at all. The stairway was on the garage side, so heat was not going upstairs well, so am still working to get heat upstairs.
We moved my office into the space that has the wood stove, and that big stove heated the space too well, if I wanted any of the extra heat to go upstairs. We have sense purchased a smaller stove, used it one season, and has made a big difference in the comfort level in that room, and still have not sacrificed too much in the way of heat getting upstairs because of some ventilation changes I am working on.
The one thing I will mention that I think has only been alluded to is that the basement floor will get cold, and is hard to heat up. With those kids spending the best part of the day down there, I would be putting the stove downstairs, but with the idea that it is mostly heating the basement, any extra heat upstairs will be a bonus, and you will get some upstairs, but you will not totally eliminate the gas. You will be able to keep the basement at a warmth level that you might not be able to afford doing with gas or electricity.
You asked about where to put this stove in the basement, and we could use a few more details on the layout of the basement, such as where the staircase is, where the outside access is, and where the rooms are located might help the discussion.
Someone else mentioned holding off on replacing the propane furnace until the wood stove is installed, and I would second that if the current one is not too old or inefficient. See what the wood stove will do for the upstairs first. We installed an air to air heat pump, but am not overjoyed with the heating side of it.
Welcome to the hearth, hope we can help.
We moved my office into the space that has the wood stove, and that big stove heated the space too well, if I wanted any of the extra heat to go upstairs. We have sense purchased a smaller stove, used it one season, and has made a big difference in the comfort level in that room, and still have not sacrificed too much in the way of heat getting upstairs because of some ventilation changes I am working on.
The one thing I will mention that I think has only been alluded to is that the basement floor will get cold, and is hard to heat up. With those kids spending the best part of the day down there, I would be putting the stove downstairs, but with the idea that it is mostly heating the basement, any extra heat upstairs will be a bonus, and you will get some upstairs, but you will not totally eliminate the gas. You will be able to keep the basement at a warmth level that you might not be able to afford doing with gas or electricity.
You asked about where to put this stove in the basement, and we could use a few more details on the layout of the basement, such as where the staircase is, where the outside access is, and where the rooms are located might help the discussion.
Someone else mentioned holding off on replacing the propane furnace until the wood stove is installed, and I would second that if the current one is not too old or inefficient. See what the wood stove will do for the upstairs first. We installed an air to air heat pump, but am not overjoyed with the heating side of it.
Welcome to the hearth, hope we can help.
I'll throw in my two cents here;
I would recommend as has already been stated- two stoves: a 2.25cf or so stove in the living space and a smaller stove 1.7cf (maybe even a pellet stove) in the basement.
Also I have a 3 year old so we installed a kidco hearthgate around our insert. It's a good product. I recommend it if you're concerned about safety. Hope that helps. Good luck either way.
Note* begreen's 1st suggestion is probably a more reasonable answer.
I would recommend as has already been stated- two stoves: a 2.25cf or so stove in the living space and a smaller stove 1.7cf (maybe even a pellet stove) in the basement.
Also I have a 3 year old so we installed a kidco hearthgate around our insert. It's a good product. I recommend it if you're concerned about safety. Hope that helps. Good luck either way.
Note* begreen's 1st suggestion is probably a more reasonable answer.
I think we've decided to go with two stoves, a smaller one in the basement just to heat that room and a larger one upstairs to heat the main level. The basement has a window and a door on the west side. The east side is underground. It is divided east to west about evenly so that the door is in the unfinished portion and the window in the finished portion. The finished portion is on the southern side (but no southern facing windows). The stairway is right in the middle so that it starts in the finished portion and the upper part is above the unfinished portion. I think I'm going to put the stove in the finished portion in the northwest corner. I chose that location because I don't want to block the window in the southwest corner and the other corners are in the underground portion. It is not a direct shot to the stairs, but since we've not aiming to heat the upstairs I don't think it will be a problem. We'll leave the propane furnace in to heat the place while we're away for extended periods and run our kitchen stove, but we hope to do most of our heating with wood.I guess our next step is to go to a showroom to get some idea of what kind of stove we want.
There are some great stoves for very reasonable prices. Look around and check in with the forum for reviews of specific stoves and chimneys. Also if your concerned about the little guys safety around the stove this is a good product. I don't know anything about the site this link is on, but the product is fantastic. (broken link removed)
Good luck! Keep us posted with pics if possible.
Good luck! Keep us posted with pics if possible.
Blue Vomit
Minister of Fire
DaFattKidd said:
DaFattKidd speaks the truth! We have one as well. You can buy extra sections and they conform to any shape to fit tricky areas.
Sounds like you have a good plan in place. If you gave us a hint about your stove budget, we could make recommendations, if you like.
One thing I suggest that you consider is getting a stove that will allow you to do some cooking on the stovetop. It will be easier to tend lunch or dinner if it's a stew bubbling on the stove nearby.
Craigslist, if you know what you're doing, and you're careful, can be a good source for a used stove. Caveat emptor. Good luck getting the rest of this sorted. Did you ever get your chimney questions answered?
One thing I suggest that you consider is getting a stove that will allow you to do some cooking on the stovetop. It will be easier to tend lunch or dinner if it's a stew bubbling on the stove nearby.
Craigslist, if you know what you're doing, and you're careful, can be a good source for a used stove. Caveat emptor. Good luck getting the rest of this sorted. Did you ever get your chimney questions answered?
bluemountainmama said:
Go to the showrooms and also read a ton (via searches) here. Woodstock has a great library of usefull info on all aspects of heating with wood. Take a look at the picture gallery on this website to see what some of the installs look like.
Woodstock has a great sale on refurb stoves going right now too.
Good luck,
Bill
Thats the only bad thing about having such a beautiful stove ( Jotul with enamel paint ) they ain't no way i'm gonna cook on it. I did't even cook on my old smoke dragon I have a covered back porch with a gas grill I can use for power outage emergency cooking. :zip:
How are you going to get the wood into the house? If I had to bring it in from the 1st floor that's where I'd put the stove, then use a heat pump for the basement (or a much smaller stove) to suppliment the heat. If it was coming in from a walk-out basement I'd try like heck to fit a reasonable stove in the basement. Basements for the most part have a much lower heat load than exposed walls, which makes sizing a stove for the basement tough. I've been blasted out of more than a few basement man caves.
At $.11/kwH your electrical rates are close to 1/2 mine. I'm looking to change my 1000sqft in-law over to a heat pump because even at such a high elect rate its much cheaper than oil. I would definately do the heat pump and stove combo. Heating with wood is not easy.
At $.11/kwH your electrical rates are close to 1/2 mine. I'm looking to change my 1000sqft in-law over to a heat pump because even at such a high elect rate its much cheaper than oil. I would definately do the heat pump and stove combo. Heating with wood is not easy.
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