what are your temp and times

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I fixed my danfose valve by turning it around. The guts where the opposite direction of the sticker inside. Now the temp rarely dropes below 140 whereas before it would continually drop into 120's. Now I have been watching my temp and times. When it is cycling
Fan 100
160 pump on
Good gassification
Primary 4 turns
Secondary 1/2 open
Bypass valve 1/2 open

It takes about 12 minutes to heat boiler up to 160. Circulating pump stays on for about 4 minutes while dropping below 160. The temp never gets above 165. 12 minutes off 4 on.
I put pump to 170 and times are about the same 14minutes off 4 on. Temp gets to 172 high.
The wood is dry but it is pine, pinion, and ceder.
Are those times and temp seem right? What are your on and off times. My boiler has never gone over 175 as high temp.
My storage tanks are never real hot to touch. I burn all day and in the am my tanks are cold and my temp in house base dropped 5 degrees from night before. I am heating my house at he same time I am trying to get my tanks up to temp. Right now how things are working my storage is not doing anything but making my return temp to my boiler lower. Now that I am having a cold spell I can't get my house temps above 165

 

[woodsmaster]

I just got my biomass 60 online and have about 14 hours of actual burning and my tanks are very hot to the touch almost to the very bottom. Im not heating any loads yet though. boiler temp hasn't went over
165 yet with the cirrculater on speed 3 . I have a bad controller and lost power a few times, there sending a new one monday. sounds like you have a large house load or somthings not right.

 

[woodsmaster]

My pump hasn't shut off yet other than when the controller went out.

 

[taxidermist]

Sounds like we are getting close! Your not looking for on and off times. Your boiler is still trying to heat your storage and it is getting slugs of cooler water shutting your pump off. Can you post a drawing of your piping? I also thinking your wood is not dry. These boilers really struggle to make heat when your wood is not REAL dry. Can you get a cheep moisture meter from harbor freight so you know what it is?


Rob

 

[jebatty]

For comparison purposes so that you can get an idea of an operational goal, I fired the Tarm Solo 40 (140,000 btuh rating) at noon on Saturday, outside temp of +10F. The 1000 gal storage was at 98F. The fire burned out at 7:00 pm on Saturday, outside temp of -4F, storage at 175F. From the start of firing at noon until 3:45 pm btu's also were being supplied to the radiant floor at about 42,000 btuh, and while this was occurring storage tank temperature continued to rise. The Tarm has a Termovar boiler return water protection valve which I have set to maintain return water at about a 148F minimum.

For data purposes this winter I am weighing the wood I burn. This burn was 168 lbs of aspen. An interesting data point is that 20% MC wood and flue temp of 400F produces heat energy of 6050 btu's/lb. Assuming that 100% of this energy was captured by the boiler system (incorrect assumption, of course, but never-the-less useful), in round numbers total energy available was 168 x 6050 = 1,000,000 btu. Storage from 98 to 175F = 77 x 1000 x 8.34 = 642,000 btu's stored. Btu's to radiant floor = 3.75 x 42,000 = 158,000 btu's used. Total btu's realized from burn = 800,000, which is 80% efficiency. I calculate my actual efficiency (from other data) at about 83%, since my boiler and storage are in the heated space, and I am recovering "waste" heat from the boiler, stack and loss from the storage.

Good luck on solving your burn issues, and Happy New Year!

 

[flyingcow]

I have a 105,000 btu boiler w/820 gals of un-pressurized storage. House was in the high 50's. House had been offline while doing final connections. It was about -10f at night with a 10mph breeze. Storage was about 50? had just filled out of well. In about 12 hours I brought my tank up to 175/170/165?ish(can't remember exactly), while heating house. I have a termovar valve that when the house calls for heat, it sends my boiler water to house first and sends any excess to storage. Also have a termovar loading valve behind boiler. Never adjusted any settings on mixing valves. The boiler was always above 165 after 45 minutes of running, but pushed alot higher after that. Something doesn't sound right with your set up. As posted above, a piping diagram would help. What boiler do you have and what kind of storage.

 

[stee6043]

I think it's worth mentioning that many (most?) boilers and heat exchangers are designed to function at or near 20 degrees of "change in temperature" or as others will refer to it as Delta T. So focusing on the output temperature of any hydronic device may not be the best approach. If your water coming in to your boiler is 140, an output of 160-165 should be perfectly normal and expected. This is assuming pumps and piping have been sized properly. Since you have storage you likely will NOT see higher boiler output temps until the very bottom of your tank(s) reach 140 and begin to rise.

Here is my typical run:

Get home from work after heating from storage for 16 hours: Upper tank Top temp=150-165 (depends entirely on weather). Lower tank Bottom temp=135-145.

So upon initial startup my boiler temps will not exceed mid 160's if my lower tank temps are in the low 140's or even 130's. As I heat storage the lower tank temps will rise through the 150's and 160's. By the time I go to bed and throw in my last load the Upper tank Top temp is usually pushing 165-175 and my Lower tank Bottom temp is usually pushing 155-165. At this point my boiler is usually running around 180-185 output temps. Before my daily cycle ends (long after I've gone to bed) the boiler will likely have hit 195 several times but not until the very end of the load of wood. When I get up in the mornings my tanks are usually 170-175 top to bottom because my pump runs all night. Someday I'll buy a setpoint controller to stop my pump overnight but I haven't done it yet.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but nobody should be seeing 180 degree output temps with 140 degree input temps. As long as a storage tank is still below 140 I think you'll be stuck in the 160's for output. This is 100% normal...

 

[Pat53]

I think it's worth mentioning that many (most?) boilers and heat exchangers are designed to function at or near 20 degrees of "change in temperature" or as others will refer to it as Delta T. So focusing on the output temperature of any hydronic device may not be the best approach. If your water coming in to your boiler is 140, an output of 160-165 should be perfectly normal and expected. This is assuming pumps and piping have been sized properly. Since you have storage you likely will NOT see higher boiler output temps until the very bottom of your tank(s) reach 140 and begin to rise.

Here is my typical run:

Get home from work after heating from storage for 16 hours: Upper tank Top temp=150-165 (depends entirely on weather). Lower tank Bottom temp=135-145.

So upon initial startup my boiler temps will not exceed mid 160's if my lower tank temps are in the low 140's or even 130's. As I heat storage the lower tank temps will rise through the 150's and 160's. By the time I go to bed and throw in my last load the Upper tank Top temp is usually pushing 165-175 and my Lower tank Bottom temp is usually pushing 155-165. At this point my boiler is usually running around 180-185 output temps. Before my daily cycle ends (long after I've gone to bed) the boiler will likely have hit 195 several times but not until the very end of the load of wood. When I get up in the mornings my tanks are usually 170-175 top to bottom because my pump runs all night. Someday I'll buy a setpoint controller to stop my pump overnight but I haven't done it yet.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but nobody should be seeing 180 degree output temps with 140 degree input temps. As long as a storage tank is still below 140 I think you'll be stuck in the 160's for output. This is 100% normal...

I'm wondering if the relatively new Taco Setpoint circulators would be useful for guys who run with storage. Supposedly you can just adjust the setpoint to whatever output temp you desire and the pump will maintain that temp. They are EXTREMELY expensive however, around $600 I believe.

 

[jebatty]

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but nobody should be seeing 180 degree output temps with 140 degree input temps. As long as a storage tank is still below 140 I think you’ll be stuck in the 160’s for output. This is 100% normal…

Valid point. It is possible to produce higher output if flow is reduced, but BTU output would be about the same. The boiler can only produce X output, and you can play with the numbers, but the output BTU's will be largely unaffected: BTUH = gpm x delta-T x 500.

And most wood gasification boilers need return water protection in the 140-160 range, depending on manufacturer specs, and providing return water below the spec may actually result in reduced output, as well as potential problems with the boiler resulting from the "cool" return water.

 

[flyingcow]

I think it's worth mentioning that many (most?) boilers and heat exchangers are designed to function at or near 20 degrees of "change in temperature" or as others will refer to it as Delta T. So focusing on the output temperature of any hydronic device may not be the best approach. If your water coming in to your boiler is 140, an output of 160-165 should be perfectly normal and expected. This is assuming pumps and piping have been sized properly. Since you have storage you likely will NOT see higher boiler output temps until the very bottom of your tank(s) reach 140 and begin to rise.

Here is my typical run:

Get home from work after heating from storage for 16 hours: Upper tank Top temp=150-165 (depends entirely on weather). Lower tank Bottom temp=135-145.

So upon initial startup my boiler temps will not exceed mid 160's if my lower tank temps are in the low 140's or even 130's. As I heat storage the lower tank temps will rise through the 150's and 160's. By the time I go to bed and throw in my last load the Upper tank Top temp is usually pushing 165-175 and my Lower tank Bottom temp is usually pushing 155-165. At this point my boiler is usually running around 180-185 output temps. Before my daily cycle ends (long after I've gone to bed) the boiler will likely have hit 195 several times but not until the very end of the load of wood. When I get up in the mornings my tanks are usually 170-175 top to bottom because my pump runs all night. Someday I'll buy a setpoint controller to stop my pump overnight but I haven't done it yet.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but nobody should be seeing 180 degree output temps with 140 degree input temps. As long as a storage tank is still below 140 I think you'll be stuck in the 160's for output. This is 100% normal...

A lot of this is over my head. But I have to depend on the people I bought this stuff from. That being said. Tonight, storage was about 112f(on top, bottom lower). Lit fire in boiler, in about 45 minutes the boiler started shipping 160f degree water to house/storage. It will not ship water colder than 160ish. On initial start up, the loading valve will recirculate the boiler water"round and round" until it hits 160ish, than ship to house/storage. Does not matter what my storage temp is. Thermostatic valves are what they are. This is my experience. I only know what i have for Tarm supplied me. Which was very pricey, but it seems to work well.

 

[Hunderliggur]

"On initial start up, the loading valve will recirculate the boiler water"round and round†until it hits 160ish, than ship to house/storage."

You water does not circulate until the pump turns on. Just the water jacket is heating. You should have some differential between your pump start and pump off. Mine is set to 5F so start is at 165F and off at 160F. What are your settings?

A Danfoss valve will vary the flow based on the return water temperature. As the return heats up, less boiler output is used to maintain at least 140F. Mark from AHONA recommended (and I did) drilling a small, 1/8", hole in the Danfoss plate (which blocks the water flow from the return) so that there is always a little flow in the storage/load loop. He finds it works better that way. Given how the Danfoss works, if your valve is 140F and your boiler pump temp is 160, you would have (approximately) a 50/50 flow if the return water was 120. If the return water was 100, you would have a 33/66 return/boiler ratio. At 10GPM boiler pump rate (average), you are putting 3 GPM (60F Delta T) to 5 GPM(40F Delta T) into storage (about 100,000 BTU) Your pump should not be circulating until the temp reaches the set point (160F). Given 100,000 BTU output, 1000 gallons of storage would raise 10F every hour if there were no other losses (but there are). If your pipes are uninsulated or your tank you are loosing a lot. I calculated I was loosing about 30,000 BTUH in my basement ceiling from my 2x80foot boiler lines (1 1/4" copper). I really wasn't loosing it, it was keeping the floor above warm but it was not going into the storage to be used on demand by the radiant.

I started heating both of my storage tanks today (2x500), they are now both 150ish. My wood is wet (25-30%) so I know AND ACCEPT that my performance will be less. I'll get to the drier wood for next season. I have been cleaning up the logs (3 years old, 16 - 24 feet long 12 - 30 inches, mixed hardwood) from building (clearing 2 acres) for my wife's benefit and I would rather burn them. Except for having longer storage it works well. I have a LOT of 3 - 4 year old branches (3 to 8 inches; 6 feet long) which I will tackling soon. They should be drier.

And yes, the Taco setpoint circulators are expensive $600+ and a 4 to 6 week lead time (made to order). I took a simpler approach with a mixing valve for my application.