We should have known better…. God: if I only insisted

  • Thread starter Thread starter elkimmeg
  • Start date Start date
  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

elkimmeg

Guest
Guy and his wife are sitting in the insurance office, negotiating the final payment settlement. I still remember those events in the early morning three weeks back. It happened so quickly. Sounded like a freight train was coming threw the house. Woke me up from a deep sleep. No sooner did the noise start when all the smoke alarms went off
The smoke was everywhere. Me and the misses, grabbed the cell phone and a couple of blankets and made our exit. The smoke was so thick by now; we could not see anything we had to feel our way out. The fire dept arrived to our home fully engulfed in smoke. They started breaking out all the windows then axing holes in the roof . The paramedics checked us out to see if we were ok. Finally the chief informed us everything was under control. And that we better make plans to find another place to stay. The smoke damage rendered the home uninhabitable. My wife asked if they found Rover, our 5 year old yellow Lab? The news was not good. Rover died instantly, when that first 2100-degree hot flash back blew out the bottom of the chimney. Rover too enjoyed the comfort and warmth of our wood stove; He would sleep right on the rug in front of it.

Flash back 7 years earlier. The installers seemed knowledgeable. I posted questions on Hearth.com One reply recommended that a damper block off plate was needed. No one ever went far enough to point out the blocker plate prevented flash back. Everybody was only concerned about preventing room air from escaping up the chimney. It was never explained that these bats are not a permanent solution. Condensation from normal humidity forms in the chimneys in the summer this moisture gets into the batts and causes them to sag. Once they sagged they no loner prevented the intrusion of room air. That cooled my uninsulated liner, to initiate and accelerate the formation of creosote. I remember the poster said it should be of ridged material and recommended at using 26 gage metal. They recommended using the full liner and all agreed the 316ti was the superior product. So why did it fail? I thought it was installed to prevent this from occurring? Unknown to all till the incident happened. The chimney had an offset. The installers had a hard time getting the liner threw the offset. They used excessive force and weaken the structural integrity of the liner.. The latest batch of wood could have been a bit dryer and with an offset, a natural shelf for creosote build up, disaster was imminent.

Back to the insurance office:. Here is your check for $50,000 to repair your home. You complain it’s not enough and produce your estimates. The agent is apologetic and explains his hands are tied and that the decision was not his. He then claims how he went to bat for you, to get you this much. Really it was the best he could possibly recover, for an un-permitted un- inspected installation that failed.

I did not take the time to explain the reasons of blocking off the damper, if I felt it un necessary. For those that put in batt insulation, I would not post that info and expose your shortcomings. I would be ashamed to admit I’m a cutting corners and advocating it is ok for others to follow suit. The installer this guy talked to , recommended this being an accepted, practice needs to get re-educated in a hurry. It’s installers like this, that guarantee my job security
 
I had such an installation when we first moved in. Local sweep installed the liner, no damper block, just stuffed around the pipe with insulation. This was before I discovered hearth.com. Glad I only ran a couple years that way, then switched to the pellet stove. Liner and chimney are now removed. Liner still looks like new. When we install the stove with a new class A flue, it will be inspected, done to commercial standards and completely homeowner inspectable. Here's why:

Our neighbor had a class A metalbestos flue interior mounted, ran up through the attic. It was inspected and contractor installed. One day in February, 12 yrs later, his wife is in the garden and notices smoke coming from the roof. Called the fire dept. and they were there quickly. They lost about 1/3 of the house, but he is a contractor and was just happy that no one, including the dog, was hurt.

As he undertook the repair, he noticed that wherever there was a sheetrock wall the damage was contained. The chimney had failed in the attic space where there was no sheetrock and caught the exposed wood on fire. When he rebuilt, he doubled all clearances to wood and boxed the chimney in sheetrock. One panel was left removable for inspection.
 
BeGreen said:
The chimney had failed in the attic space where there was no sheetrock and caught the exposed wood on fire. When he rebuilt, he doubled all clearances to wood and boxed the chimney in sheetrock. One panel was left removable for inspection.

Up until about 10 years ago, it was common (and legal) to install class A chimney up through an attic with no attic insulation shield. This meant that the ceiling support was completely open at the top allowing two potential problems:

1. Sawdust, wood pieces and insulation to fall down into the ceiling support and reast against the pipe at what may be the single hottest part of the chimney (is it. Metal?)

2. Insulation would often be placed right against large sections of the insulated chimney, either on purpose (hey, it helps insulated the insulated chimney, right?) or just by accident.

Given the listed clearances, it is highly unlikely that insulated chimney will fail to protect. But people being people, they often try to "improve" situations in an incorrect fashion - for instance, "Hey, we do a better job than metal for sealing the damper, we use insulation!)

When it comes to class A chimney, the design of many systems allows them to breathe. Examples include the loose fitting openings on the top of attic insuation shields, flashings and even firestop spacers. Deciding to tighten up the installation by caulking and sealing everything can lower the safety quotient. Remember that heat rises, and having even a small area to escape means that cooler air enters somewhere else.

Basically, don't second guess the instructions. Install it as per spec and it will be fine.
 
All good tips Craig. I think the insurance company said in his case that the chimney failed due to pinhole leaks? I'll ask again.

I'm considering running our flue up through a large, 2nd story closet so that it will be completely visible. The closet will eventually be removed and then this will be part of the room, but for now the door will be removed. I will surround the exposed pipe with a heat shield of expanded mesh or perforated screen, so that it doesn't trap heat and so that nothing and no one can directly touch the pipe. A friend did this. He found a very nice stainless, perforated screening that looks great, yet is quite functional. I'll inspect carefully for any sawdust in the ceiling support and will be sure to watch clearances carefully. Will send pictures to the site for visual confirmation.
 
Very interesting story, chilling so to speak. But one question:

In the 7 years, did he ever get his fireplace cleaned? Did he ever have a chimney inspection?

Chris
 
Chris I forgot about this post, but it was a facticiuos rebuttal to a person advocating common fiberglass insulation was a proper application for a block off plate. Telling other forum members that it was an accepted practice
 
Elk, you will be happy to know that I have a roll of Kaowool in transit to my home as we speak. I was hoping it would be here already so I could put in my blockoff plate today. Alas, it is not. I am sure that will also make a difference in the efficiency of my stove since I know I have a bunch of heated air being sucked right up and out the flue area around my liner. yes I know it should have been properly sealed at the top I sealed the chimney cap and chimney block plate to the piece I fabricated but it was dark when I finished my liner and I could get all the way around it to seal with the fireplace morter. At some point I'll go back up there and finish that but for now I'm going to seal from the bottom.
 
Is all this pipe install 411 the standard for pellet stoves too?

Elk, your creative genius on this thread is outstanding. A real eye opener.

I actually called my insurance agent just yesterday (before reading this thread) to let him know I'm installing a pellet stove. He said they like to come out to take a picture after the install is done. He also said the requirements for pellet stoves is drastically less than that for wood.

He couldn't recall EVER denying a claim for a tragedy, reguardless of the type of fuel or being notified that there was a stove in the home. I won't say the name of the insurance company, but they have 'Good Hands'.

Thanks for a great read.

swimmer
 
The insatll standard is both the manufacture's listing ans the one and two familly Part of the international mechanical codes
Basically check over you installation instructions measure your distances to combustiables and check the floor protection specs
. Additionally make sure it meets one of the prescribed venting descriptions right size pellet pipe and the exit exhaust is x distance from doors windows
and walkways with proper termination The manual as may specify sealing the vent pipe not a bad idea to prevent pressure losses and to facilitate proper functionings in the burn pot
The insurance co might tell it is ok but cover you rear end with a certificate of compliance from your local building dept. which is entered into public record.
and proof you as the owner did everything right. I know I have had to inspect old stoves that were installed prior to my tour of inspections, Usually it is the mortage company or some home inspection that had an issue. If public record could produce a certificate of compliance / inspections Usually once we fax a copy the issue is done.
So it is a good idea to have that piece of paper in otherwords a permit and inspection
 
When I was installing the network in our house, the ONLY place I could get a straight shot from the basement up to the 2nd floor was to run next to the metal flue pipe (I'm pretty sure it's double wall pipe at least) for the gas furnace and H/W heater (now used only by the H/W heater, as we have replaced the furnace w/ a high-efficiency unit that vents out the side of the house w/ PVC pipe) I ran the cable through two runs of 2" lo-voltage flex conduit, barely staying w/in the clearance requirements for space between the chimney and the conduit. (BTW it was a tough number to find...) Given the low heat input on that pipe, I'm not terribly worried about it, and I AM kosher for the clearances anyway.

What I did notice that was a bit more scary, was that when I opened up the walls to put in the conduit I found lots of trash in the space that clearly dates back to when the house was built 20 odd years ago. This included sheetrock fragments and lots of wood shavings and chunks. It looks like they never bothered to swamp out the space before putting up the rock, or possibly they drilled the holes for the chimney pipe after the rock went in, but didn't bother to clean out the cutting scraps.

With the current setup it isn't a big deal, with the water heater going full blast the pipe barely gets warm to the touch, but I wonder how hot it used to get with the old furnace?

Gooserider
 
That's pretty typical on jobsites and really needs watching. I had some young carpenters this summer dump a batch of crap down the hole left by a chimney I removed. Really pissed me off considering that I had just cleaned up the space below the hole the week before.
 
doing some hvac work on my house this year I found a hammer in a duct. 2 years ago I discovered that the space under the stairs has duct coming up thru the floor, and that's it. Two vents cut in walls to the rooms on either side of the stairs. gotta love quality.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.