Want used wood/coal boiler prefer older Tarm Long Island NY and need advice

[ryderlj]

I ran a tarm coal/wood boilet in the late 70's mid eighties and was happy with it. Bought one of the first to come from Denmark after I made a business trip there for a different reason but visited a Tarm showroom there and came back to buy one (maybe $2500.00) from somewhere in Westchester county NY ( I think Sommers) which I picked up and installed myself. I sold the house in 1989 and thought I was done with wood/coal. I had delusions of grandure. Economy has trashed my real estate values, portfolio and 401K and so I am now looking to do the same 25 years later in a different house (3000 sq ft, 1500 gals oil/yr) at 65 years old but I still have the firebug passion. I want to know how long one of these boilers can last especially if they are dormant for many years. I know with oil boilers there are gaskets that dry out. I don't know if my old Tarm had gaskets. I need wood/coal because I think I may have about 20 cords on my property (2 acres) in various stages of ageing/rotting or still standing dead or needing removal. I can use coal after I use up the wood and when I don't want to cut and haul wood. I don't care about the EPA standards because this is what will work for me. Lost ten trees in Irene last month and it got my old wood burning blood running. Researched pellets but came up with 40% higher cost per BTU than coal at $300. per ton for each as of this post on Long Island NY. Besides, pellets take up an enormous volume of storage vs coal (have not computed but you would need a silo unless I want to haul a zillion ( actually 537 40lb bags ) from Home Depot. I can store 4 tons of coal comfortably in 4X4X10 available space in my garage which I did 25 yrs ago but I had a 13 ton bin so I got 3 yrs out of it when mixing with wood. If I were to use 7 tons of coal per year I could replace 1500 gals of oil but I will mix it with wood for about four years until I use up the wood. I would not buy firewood for burning. I would go to 100% coal because it is so much more convenient (I lived both as a mix for about eight years) and wood pellets may be the current rage but they are 40% more expensive per BTU and then you have the storage problem. The equivalant BTU value of 1500 Gals oil/yr in pellets is 10.75 tons times $300.00 is $3225.00 vs oil at $4875.00 ($3.25/gal) for $1650.00 savings. Compared this with 100% coal useage at a cost of $2080.00 vs $4875.00 oil for a savings of $2795.00 per year. Since I will mix coal and free wood, my annual savings wiil be $3875.00) I am an accountant with 40 years experience at the corporate CFO level so I think my financial analysis is pretty reliable. Please comment.
I am looking for anyones advice on using (with possible reconditioning) old and possibly many years dormant wood/coal boilers preferably Tarm. I also need a log splitter since at 65 my splitting days are over!
I also am looking for someone who has an old unit for sale. Will pay cash and can pick up within a couple of hundred miles or less from Long Island.

 

[Nofossil]

Welcome to the forum, EZ.

One of the things that's changed in the years that you've been away is the emergence and maturing of gasification technology. These units are widely available now and burn much cleaner and more efficiently than traditional boilers, but are a bit more finicky about having well-seasoned wood.

I don't know about wood/coal capable gasifiers, but I'm pretty sure that someone will chime in.

Wood boilers need inlet temperature protection to prevent exhaust from condensing in the heat exchanger portion of the boiler. This is especially an issue for gasifiers since their exhaust temperatures are lower. Any used boiler that was installed without some mechanism for ensuring hot enough inlet temperatures would be suspect in my opinion.

As far as I know all indoor wood boilers are designed to be operated in closed (pressurized) systems where there's not a continuing supply of fresh dissolved oxygen to eat away at the steel in the water jacket. I'd look to make sure that this was the case for any used boiler.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

If the boiler is going into your house/basement I wouldn't put in a non gasser. If installing in a shed an old used Tarm should work fine, provided the plates aren't all eaten away as the Mod says. The problem is creosote & most non gassers are good at producing this. If you have a chimney fire in a shed this is much better than one in your house, Randy

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks Mod and Pyro.
That is good advise about how it was installed. Is there a way to inspect for corrosion?
One of the other reasons I am looking for a non gassifier is that my wood which has been accumulating for years is in varios stages. I did the same last time and could burn anything that was relatively free of rot and still solid. This was especially true of locust and cedar some of which I dug out of the ground probably having been burried for years but still solid. A few scrapes with my ax and off to the Tarm! The other advantage to mixing coal is that it does a good job burning off the creosote. There was a huge difference in cleaning the chimney after a period of wood only vs alternating with coal. At times I would go to a "coal only" period just for that reason.
As far as my previous question about gaskets, are you aware that there are gaskets in the unit? I may be able to get my old one back if the current owner of my old house still has it and so since I know how it was operated, and I suspect that nobody used the system since me, my only concern was that if anything in the unit could dry up after 25 years.
The cost of a new Tarm gassifier installed even without storage is in the 12-14K range. It does not make sense for me to invest that kind of money if I only have about four years supply of wood. I would go to coal only after that unless I could come by some free firewood here and there.
So I will continue my search for a used non gas wood/coal combo for something less than $4K.
Additional comments would be appreciated!

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Thanks Mod and Pyro.
That is good advise about how it was installed. Is there a way to inspect for corrosion?
One of the other reasons I am looking for a non gassifier is that my wood which has been accumulating for years is in varios stages. I did the same last time and could burn anything that was relatively free of rot and still solid. This was especially true of locust and cedar some of which I dug out of the ground probably having been burried for years but still solid. A few scrapes with my ax and off to the Tarm! The other advantage to mixing coal is that it does a good job burning off the creosote. There was a huge difference in cleaning the chimney after a period of wood only vs alternating with coal. At times I would go to a "coal only" period just for that reason.
As far as my previous question about gaskets, are you aware that there are gaskets in the unit? I may be able to get my old one back if the current owner of my old house still has it and so since I know how it was operated, and I suspect that nobody used the system since me, my only concern was that if anything in the unit could dry up after 25 years.
The cost of a new Tarm gassifier installed even without storage is in the 12-14K range. It does not make sense for me to invest that kind of money if I only have about four years supply of wood. I would go to coal only after that unless I could come by some free firewood here and there.
So I will continue my search for a used non gas wood/coal combo for somethinf less than $4K.
Additional comments would be appreciated!

If I were inspecting for corrosion I'd take a heavy ball pein hammer & rap on the plates inside the unit. If they dent or sound tinny it's service life is close to over. Look for a used gasser, does it need to be a Tarm? I've seen nice ones of various brands go under 2g's. Randy

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks pyro, that is good advice about the corrosion. I said before that I can't use a gasser because A. My wood is not good enough and B. I will be mixing with coal and going to coal 100% when my imperfect wood runs out in about 3 or 4 years.

 

[ryderlj]

Post script to my previous post. Thanks to Randy

The wood that I burned for ten years in my old tarm bought in 1979 was much like the stuff that I now have laying around my one acre of woods. Some of it is freshly cut this month (thank you Irene), some of it has fallen in previous storms and is either still on the log or I have cut it into pieces and left it in piles and a lot of it was piled up on the log ten years ago when I cleared a half acre of woods for a real backyard with a pool and huge play area for the kids. The ten year old stuff that was piled is probably beyond salvage at the bottom of the pile but toward the top I think I can still use a lot. My experience is if I can rap it with a maul and it seems mostly solid, the rot is normally only on the surface which I scrape off with an ax blade. I then set it to dry for a couple of weeks in a sunny spot to dry the surface. The inside is normally free of moisture even with stuff buried in soil for years. My old Tarm had no problem with this and as I said, mixing with coal cleaned out the creosote nicely.
So my wood is about 50% funky and I would not even attempt to put it in a gasser.
So I am still hoping to find a non gasser which still has a lot of life in it. Hopefully ten years when I will be 75 and I think will have to call it a day for this stuff, if I make it that long.
I am willing to pick up such unit for cash within about 300 miles from central Long Island for cash after reviewing close ups.
BTW has anyone got experience with electric splitters? I am looking at a Powerhouse 7 ton for $399.00 free shipping and no tax that appears to have rave reviews for 20"L, 16" D logs.
All comments will be greatly appreciated. You guys really know how this thing works!

 

[ryderlj]

still looking for the answer as to if there are gaskets to worry about in old units.

 

[bigbobs]

Check e bay. There is a guy from Hinsdale, NH that buys, refurbishes old boilers and sells them on ebay. He has some old Tarm units listed. You don't get cresoate when burning coal. The door gaskets are easy to replace, I don't know if there are any other gaskets in the unit. All parts are still avaliable from the dealer in Lyme, NH Bioheat.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

still looking for the answer as to if there are gaskets to worry about in old units.

There could be gaskets in an old cast iron sectional, although typically these go together like an old radiator, without them. There would be no reason for gaskets in a welded up unit that I am aware of. Moderator Eric used to say he liked the control that he had using wood. If you use pellets or coal you are at the mercy of someone else & if the price goes up 50 percent you pay it. I lost track here, are you able to collect free wood if you work at it? If you can't get free wood you might want to reconsider the entire endever & go with a condensing conventional boiler. I know around here anthracite coal is expensive & not worth burning for a typical residence. If you lived in PA that would be a different story & you could put in a stoker boiler & not look back, Randy

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks Big. That is great news about the guy in NH. I will check it out.
Pyro: Pellets and coal are the same cost per ton on Long Island at $300.00 per ton but the BTU value of coal is 40% better and the storage of pellets is a problem for me. My wood would be free for a couple of 3 to 4 years if I mix it with the wood. If I buy wood here from a legit dealer the cost is 250.00-300.00 per cord for premium stuff. The BTU value is 85% of a ton of coal and requires more work not to mention the creasote build up when using it alone in a non gassifier. I guess if I had a truck I could find some private sources at $180 or less but then againn, more work.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Just picked up a used harman SF260 it seems to be a good stove i would love to have gotten the gasier but it was not in the budget. I did pull lots of that nasty black rock by the exhaust out of the boiler when i got it so i think i will run it on coal for a little bit to just clean its self out.

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks hot,
Can you tell me a bit about the Harmon? Like BTU's, burn time, age, what it cost you, firebox size, where did you get it. I assume it is a non gasser coal/wood.
Yes, coal will burn the creosote down to an allegatered thin coating which is easy to scrape or brush (wire) if you can get to it.

 

[Rebel Wood]

The Tarm was an excellent option, back in the day. I installed several in that era, and have never seen one fail. Still have several operating on oil only, and all are in excellent shape boiler wise. The problem is what you sacrifice on oil efficiency compared to todays options. Also, you would have to hire a rigging company to move the old battleship. I would recommend a dedicated high efficiency low mass oil boiler with an add on wood/coal boiler, then you won't be giving anything up depending on your burning circumstance at the time. Biasi has excellent oil, and wood coal boilers that are of good quality and efficiency for either option.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Thanks hot,
Can you tell me a bit about the Harmon? Like BTU's, burn time, age, what it cost you, firebox size, where did you get it. I assume it is a non gasser coal/wood.
Yes, coal will burn the creosote down to an allegatered thin coating which is easy to scrape or brush (wire) if you can get to it.

It is 2 years old had a crack on the door that i had to weld up. I paid 1500.00 for it it weights 800lbs does 130k btu. I have not put fire to it yet.

It takes 28" logs in the fire box you can get full johnson controls for 300 bucks it has 1.25 water pipe plugs.


(broken link removed to http://harmanstoves.com/products/details.asp?cat=central-heating&prd=boilers&f=BLRSF260)

They make a couple different sizes It looks well made it is heavy duty but we will see when i fire it up i am doing it as a addon to my 250k BTU triangle tube boiler i put in a couple years ago. I just want to get off the gas mans pay wagon.

 

[ryderlj]

OK. I looked at the Harmon and I like it! I am not sure whether or no I can get away with the 160 or I need the 260, I have normally 2250 ft plus a finished 1000ft basement which does not take much to heat. I have additional 300 ft of guest room with sep zone that is rarely used unless a relative becomes homeless which has happened twice. That 300 ft is a barn in that it is poorly insulated. If mother in law moves in again then I would have to say that I would have the equivalent of 3000 ft all factored.
How do you tap into the used market? I would like to spend less than $2K for a unit and would probably have to pay a good buck for shipping to Long Island.
Comments are appreciated.

 

[JrCRXHF]

I asked around this spring and this one came up this summer. Used is kinda a trick i can fix most things so i don't worry to much. But the other thing you can do is run your coal/wood 160 in a plate heat exchanger on the line in of the oil burner and then on really cold nights if it needs some help then gas or oil will come on and help out a little.

It is better to run a stove hard then let it idle to much esp on wood that is the idea behind the hot water storage tanks.

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks hot,
When I ran my old tarm which was a little undersized for my prev home, I went to coal just before bedtime and it ran all night without oil coming on. I was so aware of the oil burner coming on that I would wake up from a deep sleep even though it was in the basement and 60 feet on the other side of the house. It was like paranoia. There were times when I used wood all night I would be woken up by the sound of the oil burner coming on at around four AM and then I reloaded. I had wished I had a bigger firebox.
Please tell me what you mean by "plate heat exchanger". When I fed my oil boiler it was directly pouring water in with no heat exchanger so I am not sure I understand.
RSVP

 

[JrCRXHF]

Thanks hot,
When I ran my old tarm which was a little undersized for my prev home, I went to coal just before bedtime and it ran all night without oil coming on. I was so aware of the oil burner coming on that I would wake up from a deep sleep even though it was in the basement and 60 feet on the other side of the house. It was like paranoia. There were times when I used wood all night I would be woken up by the sound of the oil burner coming on at around four AM and then I reloaded. I had wished I had a bigger firebox.
Please tell me what you mean by "plate heat exchanger". When I fed my oil boiler it was directly pouring water in with no heat exchanger so I am not sure I understand.
RSVP

plate heat exchanger is a water to water exchanger that will keep the two system from seeing each other. The reason i am going to use one is that i want to heat with wood as much as i can but if run out of wood before i get home from work or i am gone on the road i want gas to take over as normal but i don't want the gas boiler sending hot water to heat the wood boiler when it is not on.

here is a little video of how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mprUo-xoMxM

 

[ryderlj]

Really Hot,
I don't know how your system is configured but my coal/wood boiler only sent hot water to the oiler boiler when the coal/wood was at the temperature set by an aquastat. If the coal/wood was cold, there was no circulation between the coal/wood and the oil boiler so I don't understand your problem.
Different topic: Are there coal wood gassifiers? and if so, are they old enough to have used ones on the market?
Another different topic: I have decided to buy a 7 ton Powerhouse electric log splitter based on reviews that I have seen. Has anyone got any comments? Has anyone got a used one for sale?

 

[mikeyny]

EZ, I still have an old tarm made in 82, still works great. There are still some around for sale every once and a while for under a grand. check craigslist.org, ebay and the want add digest. There is a guy in warrensburgh ny, near lake george that sells used stuff of all different kinds. I think he has an add in the want add digest. I could never justify spending 10 to 15 grand on a wood boiler. I scavenge all of my wood and this old tarm is probably the best unit ever built to suit my needs. yes, its like a tank, heavy like a chevy, but it seems to be lasting for ever. Find one, they are out there.

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks MikeyNY,
I have recently seen the Harmon 260 and am also interested if I can't find the Tarm at the right price (delivered). Being on Long Island, whatever I find will probably be from upstate, NJ,PA, or New England so I can't be so selective about the Tarm due to transportation costs. I do not have a truck like I did in 1978 or1979 when I picked it up in Sommers NY.
What I am still investigating is how to evaluate an old unit. I guess I have to rely on visual evidence as well listening to somebodies story on the history.
I have some good input that there are no gaskets in the tarm that can dry out but it is not conclusive in my mind.
You are right about the quality of the wood. As I wrote previously at length : If it wasn't mush, I fed it to the Tarm with no problems and cleaned up the creosote wih a couple of coal burning days.
All comments greatly appreciated.
EZ RYDER

 

[bigbobs]

Are you looking for something like this:

(broken link removed to http://www.ebay.com/itm/HS-TARM-MB55-140-000-BTU-Wood-Coal-Boiler-Furnace-/250900372680?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6ad3dcc8)

If this is not the size I would contact this individual, he might be able to find you one.

 

[ryderlj]

Thanks MIKEY
I will contact him. I need a 120-130 or I will be either dumping or not runnig at optimum and I don't need oil/gas.

 

[millerblt]

I bought a Tarm MB55 from the guy in Hinsdale NH two years ago, it is a 1979 model and it works great. He goes through them and pressure tests them.
Mine is installed in a small room in my wood shed 100' from my house. If this thing idles too much it does produce tons of creosote!