Vermont Castings Defiant and creosote

[adb3]

I have used my new VC Defiant since late Nov and i am still amazed at the creosote buildup! I reported earlier on this and your suggestions were helpful and utilized. Now, i have used seasoned wood, more than a yr old, and burned the fire at about 450, except during the night when I leave it burning all night. As reported earlier, i have been burning a franklin stove and a Country Flame insert for about 25 yrs without the creosote buildup!
Now there is a lot of creosote, it is however the soft stuff, rather than the hard. And, the buildup on the chimney cap is now easily scraped off, before i had to use oven cleaner and other cleaning solutions. In the past i was cleaning the chimney once a yr. I have already cleaned the VC chimney twice Do i need to burn at 500+ (that's with the thermometer on the griddle)?????? YOUR INPUTS/RECOMMENDATIONS APPRECIATED!!

Additionally, the ceramic in the stove has cracked. i cleaned the stove with my shop vac and found the right side stove brick (vertical one) is cracked. I just don't see how this could happen if the brick is made of the correct materials!! YOUR INPUTS/HELP PLEASE!!

THANKS!

 

[ansehnlich1]

My guess is you have the non-catalytic defiant.

My second guess is that you're not burning it hot enough to achieve secondary burn. You are burning either wet wood, unseasoned wood, or simply not hot enough to maintain secondary burn.

Small, smoky fires will cause creosote, heck, for that matter, LARGE smoky fires will cause creosote too.

You should see no smoke coming out your chimney when burning.

 

[defiant3]

I'm not sure that 450 is enough, but a thing that is sometimes overlooked is that chimney thermometers aren't that accurate! Consider that 450 on yours may in fact be anywhere from 300 AND SOMETHING TO 500 OR WHATEVER. So just burn hotter according to your own thermo., cause whatever the real temp. is it's clearly not enough. I personally hate these new Defiants, but one thing they DO do well is burn cleanly.

 

[grommal]

I have used my new VC Defiant since late Nov and i am still amazed at the creosote buildup! I reported earlier on this and your suggestions were helpful and utilized. Now, i have used seasoned wood, more than a yr old, and burned the fire at about 450, except during the night when I leave it burning all night. As reported earlier, i have been burning a franklin stove and a Country Flame insert for about 25 yrs without the creosote buildup!
Now there is a lot of creosote, it is however the soft stuff, rather than the hard. And, the buildup on the chimney cap is now easily scraped off, before i had to use oven cleaner and other cleaning solutions. In the past i was cleaning the chimney once a yr. I have already cleaned the VC chimney twice Do i need to burn at 500+ (that's with the thermometer on the griddle)?????? YOUR INPUTS/RECOMMENDATIONS APPRECIATED!!

Additionally, the ceramic in the stove has cracked. i cleaned the stove with my shop vac and found the right side stove brick (vertical one) is cracked. I just don't see how this could happen if the brick is made of the correct materials!! YOUR INPUTS/HELP PLEASE!!

THANKS!

I don't remember your earlier posts, but are you sure your wood is truly dry? Yes, it's more than a year old, but has it been split and stacked outdoors in the sun and wind (top covered, preferably) for more than a year?

The likely suspects are either un-dry wood, or temps too low to sustain secondary combustion, or both.

 

[adb3]

The wood is deadfall oak. i live in a rural area and i went out and found several trees that were cut last time the utility company cleared the lines. these are at least 4 yrs old. they are dry, dry, dry. Additionally, i split them and stored them in my barn out of the weather. They absolutely are dry. Sounds like hotter is needed. the owner's manual suggest that the 3 settings on the air control are low (350-500), med (500-600) and high (>600). I usually build a small hot fire and leave the a/c on high to med. At night i usually add wood, wait for the fire to catch up and then turn the a/c to low.

thanks for the ideas!

ANYONE HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH THE CERAMIC CRACKING?

 

[Mandoo]

cat or everburn? Please put it in your signature so you get the right advice. I can give you my typical pipe,Cat and stovetop temps for my Defiant 1945 but may be worthless to you.

 

[adb3]

updated signature. Thanks for suggestion.

 

[Diabel]

Do a search on everburn.....there is lots of info on how to operate this stove.

The wood needs to be dry!

 

[VCBurner]

Where is the stove set up? In a fireplace? Is it hooked up to a full liner or class a chimney?

 

[defiant3]

Most of the non-cat Defiants and Encores I've seen have crack(s) in the refractory material in the rear of the firebox. It's not a deal breaker. Remember it's the fountain assy. behind there that does much of the 2ndary burn stuff. Don't worry though, that'll likely fail too, only you may not realize it. Hey wait a minute: how much wood has been through this stove, anyway? Enough to have used up the fountain? Cause that'd explain the creosote...

 

[adb3]

The stove was installed new in late NOv 2010, so it has not been used that much. This has been a very cold winter in N FL, and it was used continuously for 3 weeks.

The stove is free standing and sets on a brick hearth. 8" flue pipe vents to the ceiling, then 3 wall pipe and finally a 6' section of 3 wall pipe. altogether there's about 16' of pipe.

 

[Diabel]

16' of pipe is on the short side of the recommended length! You
might have a problem achieving the everburn!

 

[[email protected]]

I have the same stove as you. Defiant model 1610 Non-cat. A great stove when it is operating properly.
The problem I had with mine was the fountain assembly deteriorated. Symtoms are very slow draft after
damper is closed when griddle temp. reaches 450' The everburn wont work because the fountain assembly
has collapsed on itself. If you notice grey potato chip like pieces in the shoe area, that is a sign also.
Look down through the flue collar and inspect the fountain assembly.I rebuilt my combustion package
in a day. With the service manual and the material needed it was not that hard. The stove runs great.
Hope this helps.

 

[adb3]

How do you define "everburn"? i looked back at other posts and found the term used, but no definition. Does this refer to closing the damper? The owner's manual recommended closing it above 450, but i have been holding off to 550.

thanks,

 

[[email protected]]

I would define it as a rumbling sound coming from the rear of the stove. It really sounds like
there is some burning going on down there. Also the flame peters out some because the
burning is happening in the combustoin chamber.

 

[Diabel]

Sometimes it will sound like a freight train or a jet....soon
after that if the room is nice and dark you will see a nice dull
red glow coming from the back of the stove! At such point
it will be throwing so much heat you will be opening windows!!

 

[adb3]

I assume this is after you close the damper? Additionally, i looked on the back of the stove and mine has a date of 0710. My bet is that this is year/month of manufacture. the dealer i bought it from told me he had had it for 2 yrs.

 

[Diabel]

I assume this is after you close the damper? Additionally, i looked on the back of the stove and mine has a date of 0710. My bet is that this is year/month of manufacture. the dealer i bought it from told me he had had it for 2 yrs.

Yes, this is after you close the damper!

 

[grommal]

How do you define "everburn"? i looked back at other posts and found the term used, but no definition. Does this refer to closing the damper? The owner's manual recommended closing it above 450, but i have been holding off to 550.

thanks,

This is VC's name for their non-cat secondary burn system that uses the chamber in the rear of the stove. Hot air is added to the exhaust gases in this chamber, and the gases are supposed to combust more fully there. This is a different non-cat system than the more common tubes and baffle in the ceiling of a firebox. Everburn works well for some folks, but it has a reputation for being picky about draft conditions, and these stoves have a higher rate of complaints here at hearth.com, causing some people to call them "neverburn".

 

[adb3]

grommal, thanks for the answer!!

 

[Cueman]

I have no complaints with my Encore 1450 with Everburn. Its 3' connector to 90 OTW to 21' of Stainless Class A. I've been burning oak pallet wood to compensate for my green cord wood. I usually don't engage damper until 500 stovetop temp. When you engage the Everburn, there is a considerable rumble from the chamber and the flame characteristics do change from a fireplace looking fire to a seriously hot looking gas combustion flame dancing in the back and top of the stove. The primary air control will influence your burn differently in each position. At end of night, I position A/C to lowest, then crack it ever so slight to open. In the morning the stove is still warm, but nothing but ash remains. ( I imagine I'll have some residual coals when I start burning some proper fuel next year)

The Encore NC and the Defiant NC are the same stove less the firebox capacity.
If you have anything in the box in the AM that resembles wood, your burning too cool. Ideally you should have only a nice bed of workable coals.

 

[adb3]

CRC, your input is very helpful! thanks for the explanation.

 

[VCBurner]

It helps if you know how to operate your stove. This way you can optimize combustion and not have major creosote formation! As Grommal stated, you have a secondary burn chamber in the back of the stove where the smoke gets cleaned up and more heat is created. If you choke the stove down without achieving the secondary burn on any stove you'll end up with lots of build up. I'm not familiar with the non cat VC's but here's another explanation of how they work from VC itself:
(broken link removed to http://www.thenaturalabode.com/house_appliances/how_non-catalytic_stoves_work.htm)

How Non-Catalytic Wood Stoves Work

Homeowners will save money and time with a non-catalytic model. Easier to start and operate, the non-catalytic wood stove is ideal for those with less heating demands on their wood stoves.

•Slightly lower cost
•Lively flame picture
•No catalytic combustor
•Easier to operate
1.Primary combustion air enters the stove and is preheated then introduced above the glass doors. This primary air flow is adjustable and provides control of fuel burn rate and heat output. The sweeping action of the airwash system helps keep the glass clean for better fire viewing.

2.Jets of combustion air enter through the shoe refractory and maintain a superheated primary combustion zone of coals and burning fuel where combustible gasses ignite as they pass into the secondary combustion zone.

3.Flames entering the highly insulated secondary combustion chamber are further mixed with staged secondary combustion air which provides the optimum level of oxygen to more completely burn off any remaining combustible gasses. This results in lower emissions, higher efficiency and a stable, even heat output from your stove.