Venting: 45 degree Canadians versus 30 degree Americans -- I don't get it

[psilly]

Hi all, nice forums!

I'm hoping to put an RSF Opel2 in a cavity my basement. The only hitch is the chimney offset. The existing flue tile opening is hidden behind the cinder block column on the left of this picture.

A mason stacked those cinder block columns to add support for brickwork on the fireplace a story above, thereby reducing the space I have to play with. Pushing the Opel2 all the way to the left will leave me with an offset of 29" horizontal and 44" vertical. Too big for 30 degree elbows, but fine for 45 degree.

Problem is, I'm not Canadian. How does living further north change this requirement? My dealer can get the 45 degree elbows, what am I risking by going that route? Will I start speaking French, or start ending sentences with 'ay'?

My other options are:

- Abandon the Opel2 and go for something shorter (but what? Don't want a stove, Don't want gas)
- Try to replace the cinder block columns with steel posts and a steel beam (dunno about supporting things during the replacement process)

The other venting issue I'm not sure about is why the need for insulated pipe in the first place. This is going into a non-combustible cavity. Well ok, at the top, 6" away from the clay flue, there are 6 2X12s and some exterior sheeting (see this). The RSF instructions call for double wall to the flue, then an adapter to single wall liner. What's the double wall protecting me from? Maybe heat could build up in the cavity, but I could deal with that by running a soldier course of brick at the top with open joints.

Any suggestions welcome.

 

[elkimmeg]

I really do not understand why a double 2/12 is anywhere near that fireplace instalation. Did some one miss read the plans and not box out and head off the area?
is this setup an after thought? You will need 1/2" liner insulation to meet clearance codes single wall pipe is 18 " clearance to combustiables If you were planning to set a stove in that alcove
then w you would have a tremendeous heat loss to that foundation walls

 

[psilly]

I agree, pouring a cap there would have been better. I think this is just the way they used to do it around here. Meaning, 1) foundation pour (including the notched out keyway), framing (which called for the 2X12 headers so the floor joists had something to tie to), then sometime down the road comes masonry. The mason could have (maybe should have) poured his cap a foot or so loer, thus isolating the wood from the cavity. I could in fact do this myself...

I could get drop down with another piece of 12X12 clay flue and pour a foot of concrete to bring the ceiling level down and isolate the wood. If that would let me use single wall, then ok. But I actually would rather use insulated to the clay flue because this area will all be boxed in (there will be a rock or brick face above the fireplace to be installed). So if I stick with insulated, I'm back to the angle problem. I still don't understand why 30 degrees is max in the US and 45 is the max for Canada. What does the max angle prevent anyway? Buildup? Loss of draft?

My latest plan is to either just use 45 elbows, or try to replace the cinderblock columns with steel.

 

[elkimmeg]

I understand the chimney jog was planned for a future chimney If a fireplac hearth was installed above those 2/12 would be cut out and headed off and in their cavity the cement hearth would be poured. since no fireplace was installed the framers just did a box frame those 2/12 can still be cut out abd boxed and headed back but that involves a decent amoint of work
Installing another clay flue does not meet the clearance to combustiables a clay clue is required to have a 1" air space and atleast 4" id solid masonry to meet code for clearance then it also has to be supported by something
I do not understand your 30 degree or 45 degree question.That is why I can not answer it You also have to tell more is there a manary chimney above the cellae location what is directly above the floor where a future fireplace was planned What are you planning to do. Please explain, I can not visualize the entire picture.

No one here as replied because we do not know what you are asking possibly more pictures would help outside inside the room above

 

[Metal]

UL 211 covers the U.S. In it they run a 2100ºF fire through the pipe 3 times for 10 minutes each time (and a maximum skin temp can not be exceeded). The thinking is that a chimney fire shouldn't burn longer than 10 minutes. In Canada ULC runs a 2100ºF fire through the pipe for 30 minutes straight (tougher to pass and requires more insulation).

The 30º angle in the States is to make it easier to sweep. I am not sure why they use 45º angles in Canada, maybe they figure with the tougher test their chimneys have to pass a chimney fire from not being cleaned as well won't hurt. Who knows. It is kind of like speed limits, what one state considers safe can be quite a bit different than a neighboring state. I don't know if this answers your question, or if there really is an answer other than "because that is the way it is." I can almost guarantee that if a change is ever made, it will be Canada moving to 30º max and not the U.S. moving to 45º max.

 

[hearthtools]

Thre RSF fire place he is talking about is a Clean burning Fireplace build in UNIT
that uses 7" CLASS A chimney. I have one in my New showroom.

RSF and ICC are the same company and the term double wall is for Class A chimney pipe.


http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/fireplaces/foyer_opel.asp

 

[psilly]

No one here as replied because we do not know what you are asking possibly more pictures would help outside inside the room above

Right, I should give the whole picture. In a nutshell, I'm finishing an unfinished basement and want a woodburning fireplace. Beyond that, I want it to put out some heat unlike the pure masonry fireplaces I've had in the past. I've sort of settled on the RSF Opel2 as my favorite solution. This is a ZC fireplace which can be optionally vented into an existing masonry chimney (through a 7" liner). The install manual calls for 7" Class A insulated to run from the fireplace to the clay flue where it's adapted to the 7" SS liner.

What I have to work with:

I bought the house, so don't know the history, but I know how the foundation and chimney was laid out. The foundation was poured with a cavity. On top of that notched out part of the foundation, the chimney was laid. Two clay flues run up the chimney. From inside the house, the one on the right services the main floor, and the left one runs down to the basement.

From what I can tell (I'm tracking down the original mason), the chimney, main floor hearth and main floor brickwork were installed after the rough framing was done. The main floor brickwork and hearth were installed to allow a stove to be tucked into an alcove (we removed the stove to save $300/year homeowners insurance). The face brickwork on the main floor is three brick wide on either side of an arch. To support this brick from the basement, the mason has stacked cinder block up to the height of the floor joists/header, and on top of that has stacked brick (also here, and here) up to the height of the floor above. It appears that only the two inner stacks of brick on the main floor (the two on either side, closest to the inside of the arch) are actually supported by these columns. From what I've had masons do in previous houses, this all seems like overkill.

At the top of the supporting brick, it almost looks like the mason has cut holes out of the flooring (evidence here, hard to see here but looks like top of brick penetrates a hole cut in flooring). Perhaps this was to gain a masonry bond to the brick being supported -- I really don't know. The bad thing is that if this is true, disturbing the columns below means a much higher likelihood of causing problems to the brickwork above.

So, back to what I'm trying to do...

I want to place a woodburning fireplace into this cavity in the basement and finish the face (with stone or brick) to make it look like a built-in fireplace. Seemed like a straightforward thing to want a month ago.

The measurements of this cavity are found in the comments here. The RSF Opel2 is 38" wide, 24" deep, 48" high. If I install the fireplace as far left as I can, there is at least an offset of 29" horizontal and there's only 44" from the top of the fireplace to the bottom of the clay flue.

From what I read, to stay within code, I can't install this (or any other appliance I've seen so far), because the angle I need to get the chimney from the fireplace over to the flue is too great. A much shorter fireplace could be installed, but I want something that will keep heat in the house. I don't want a stove or an insert. Something like the KozyHeat Auraflame might work, though after building the inner cavity for that, the pipe angles required would be even tighter (though wouldn't be class A, thus within code I guess). I'd rather stick with the RSF Opel2 if I could -- I like it better for a number of reasons.

The only way I can imagine getting the Opel2 in there legally would be to remove that left column. I'm afraid the brickwork would fracture at best, or come tumbling down at worst if I just removed it. I'm tying to think of ways to hold it up long enough to remove the column and replace it with something smaller (steel pipe / I beam), but nothing extremely brilliant has come to mind.

Taking more drastic measures, I could demolish the main floor brickwork, remove the columns and replace with something sane, and rebuild the main floor. I wasn't planning on this much extra expense/work.

Here's where I wonder if I shouldn't just trade my stripes and stars in for a maple leaf.

Jim

 

[hearthtools]

Go look at the z42 EPA fireplace from www.Kozyheat.com

here is a photo http://www.hearthtools.com/install/z42c.jpg

The kozy z42 is a TRUE EPA fireplace and is a lot shorter than the Opel
You know the opel is NOT a EPA fireplace just AS CLEAN AS.
unless you buy the option CAT KIT.

the Z42 uses 6" class A pipe. and had optional Heat ducts kit that you can power vent heat from it to another room.
The best part about the z42 is the unit is around $2k
I have both Opel and the z42 in my showroom.

 

[psilly]

Ooh, I like it.

Though I should have mentioned -- my wife *insists* on an arched door -- arg!

(off topic) You have the Opel installed? Do you think it's worth the xtra $ to get the blower? Not the one for the faceless option, just the one that pushes air up around the unit.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[hearthtools]

Ooh, I like it.

Though I should have mentioned -- my wife *insists* on an arched door -- arg!

(off topic) You have the Opel installed? Do you think it's worth the xtra $ to get the blower? Not the one for the faceless option, just the one that pushes air up around the unit.

Thanks,

Jim

If you go to www.kozyheat.com
and look at the z42cd this is a double cast door.

but with teh z42 single door you can put the optional Door faces on it.
KOZY has a crapy website and does not show all the faces but if you look at the gas stuff you can see some of the faces.
I put a few on a JPG in the attachent. some of the faces are on gas stoves but you will get the idea.

here is a link to the owners manual http://www.kozyheat.com/pdf_files/z42.pdf

 

[psilly]

Ah,

Time to go back to the drawing board. I sure wish there was a dealer around here that had these set up.

Is there a significant firebox / door size difference between the Kozy z42 and the RSF Opel2? It's always hard from pictures to imagine how big or small something is going to be (counting bricks in pictures is getting old). I'm finding only hints at the door opening size on the Kozy Heat site (15" X 28")? RSF door (incl frame) is 18 7/8" X 25", so it sounds like a similar presentation in terms of size.

Thanks again for your help.

Jim

 

[hearthtools]

Ah,

Time to go back to the drawing board. I sure wish there was a dealer around here that had these set up.

Is there a significant firebox / door size difference between the Kozy z42 and the RSF Opel2? It's always hard from pictures to imagine how big or small something is going to be (counting bricks in pictures is getting old). I'm finding only hints at the door opening size on the Kozy Heat site (15" X 28")? RSF door (incl frame) is 18 7/8" X 25", so it sounds like a similar presentation in terms of size.

Thanks again for your help.

Jim

Took some measurments of the firebox
Kozy 25wide 14 deep 15 high
Opel 23 wide 12.5 deep 13 high

 

[psilly]

Thanks Rod, this helps a lot.

I guess my next step is to figure out whether Kozy Heat allows this to be vented into class A up to the clay flue, then adapted to flue liner for the run to the top. It's not called out in the manual.