Too many pipe bends?

[gutlo]

I must use 3 right angle bends in the 6" exhaust pipe to install an Englander NC-13 stove. The total length is 20-25'. Is this too many? What problems, if any, could i run into?

 

[kennyp2339]

I'm taking a wild guess when I say this but I'm assuming that the 1st 90 comes off the collar, 2nd 90 to make it through the wall and the 3rd 90 is out the clean out then straight up to the cap?
Please keep in mind that single wall pipe needs 18" minimum from any combustibles unless shielded with an approved shield.
Is it possible to move the stove to a better location? or run your chimney straight up through the house?

 

[begreen]

3 90s are not great and if possible should be avoided. Often an offset with a pair of 45s can eliminate a couple 90s. Post a picture of this setup and we may be able to offer a better solution.

 

[Prof]

I'd say not optimal, but after seeing the bends and such that the exhaust has to go through for my masonry heater, I've had to rethink convention. Plus, you have a pretty tall stack, which will help to create a strong pull.

 

[gutlo]

I'm taking a wild guess when I say this but I'm assuming that the 1st 90 comes off the collar, 2nd 90 to make it through the wall and the 3rd 90 is out the clean out then straight up to the cap?
Please keep in mind that single wall pipe needs 18" minimum from any combustibles unless shielded with an approved shield.
Is it possible to move the stove to a better location? or run your chimney straight up through the house?

You got it. It's a commercial application and the 3 90's are necessary to avoid going straight up through my landlord's roof. Moving the stove to a better location is possible.

Any problems other than potential draft difficulties?

 

[jetsam]

It's a pita to sweep. May be better with a soot eater than a brush, though.

Poor draft can be a serious problem, but that setup could work because of the tall stack. I'd try to plan it to have less 90s if at all possible.

 

[begreen]

Any problems other than potential draft difficulties?

Creosote accumulation.

 

[gutlo]

I get it. 3 90's is likely too many. I'll try to come up with another plan.

Thanks to all who replied.

 

[kennyp2339]

You may not have difficulties, the NC30 is a fairly light breather but with flue height you still might make the minimum height recommend by englander.
Figure 1 90deg bend is like taking away 3 ft of straight flue.
So the 3 bends is almost equal to 9ft.
22ft - 9ft = 13ft which is 2ft shorter than the recommended 15ft.
I’ve seen people run 12ft chimnies with this stove and not have issues.
You have to be mindful that dry wood is a must, and you will have to watch for build up as that will hurt your performance the most.

 

[gutlo]

You may not have difficulties, the NC30 is a fairly light breather but with flue height you still might make the minimum height recommend by englander.
Figure 1 90deg bend is like taking away 3 ft of straight flue.
So the 3 bends is almost equal to 9ft.
22ft - 9ft = 13ft which is 2ft shorter than the recommended 15ft.
I’ve seen people run 12ft chimnies with this stove and not have issues.
You have to be mindful that dry wood is a must, and you will have to watch for build up as that will hurt your performance the most.

Kennyp,

I'll be burning pallet wood exclusively and will be near it at all times to monitor the fire. When I hear "creosote" I think creosote fire. Will the risk of a fire be raised by all the bends? Can I mitigate the risk by using the anti-creosote additive?

 

[kennyp2339]

To answer the question its yes and no at the same time. Adequate draft is measured in .05 to .07 inches in water column. its unknown with the additional bends in the pipe if your going to have a problem due to the fact that you may naturally be in a high pressure environment.
What is known is that draft is reduced or hindered with 90 deg bends, so having less is always optimal. (that's why BG suggested trading any 90 deg bend with a 45 deg, it creates less turbulence with the smoke / air)
The other issue is longer flue runs with less than ideal draft, its a double edge sword to speak of, the chimney is the engine that drives the stove, so if the draft isn't strong the stove isn't going to burn correctly or as hot, if the stove isn't burning as hot then the flue gases will be cooler allowing for them to possibly condense and form creosote in the pipe, the creosote could then further restrict draft causing more hard ship.
The other possibility is that you have a reduced draft and every time you open the door to load wood you get smoke that escapes, or you have sluggish start up that are very smoky in nature, both are not ideal.
Cleaning becomes a little tougher because more than likely you will need to totally disassemble your black pipe to make sure the 90 deg bends aren't built up.
Word of caution, I am what is called an enthusiast, I am not a certified professional (there are some on here) these just some things I picked up while on this journey.

 

[jetsam]

The minimum airflow settings in the NC30 might make for an exciting learning curve if you're only burning pallet wood. Read up before you start.

 

[gutlo]

The minimum airflow settings in the NC30 might make for an exciting learning curve if you're only burning pallet wood. Read up before you start.

Jetsam, please elaborate. What do you mean by "exciting learning curve" with pallet wood?

 

[gutlo]

To answer the question its yes and no at the same time. Adequate draft is measured in .05 to .07 inches in water column. its unknown with the additional bends in the pipe if your going to have a problem due to the fact that you may naturally be in a high pressure environment.
What is known is that draft is reduced or hindered with 90 deg bends, so having less is always optimal. (that's why BG suggested trading any 90 deg bend with a 45 deg, it creates less turbulence with the smoke / air)
The other issue is longer flue runs with less than ideal draft, its a double edge sword to speak of, the chimney is the engine that drives the stove, so if the draft isn't strong the stove isn't going to burn correctly or as hot, if the stove isn't burning as hot then the flue gases will be cooler allowing for them to possibly condense and form creosote in the pipe, the creosote could then further restrict draft causing more hard ship.
The other possibility is that you have a reduced draft and every time you open the door to load wood you get smoke that escapes, or you have sluggish start up that are very smoky in nature, both are not ideal.
Cleaning becomes a little tougher because more than likely you will need to totally disassemble your black pipe to make sure the 90 deg bends aren't built up.
Word of caution, I am what is called an enthusiast, I am not a certified professional (there are some on here) these just some things I picked up while on this journey.

Many thanks, Kennyp for the explanation.

 

[kennyp2339]

Jetsam, please elaborate. What do you mean by "exciting learning curve" with pallet wood?

Pallet wood has a tendency to “take off” and go nuclear because it’s dried wood, offers lots of surface area.
There is a learning curve when burning it. When you first start to use it start off with small loads and gradually increase it.

 

[kennyp2339]

For the record I’ve realized that you said NC13 and not the 30, the 13 is also a great stove.
Once you figure how to run the chimney pipe you will enjoy the unit. Lots and lots of people have the same model and absolutely love it, englander builds some great products

 

[gutlo]

Pallet wood has a tendency to “take off” and go nuclear because it’s dried wood, offers lots of surface area.
There is a learning curve when burning it. When you first start to use it start off with small loads and gradually increase it.

I intend to stack the flat pallet wood pieces close together so as to slow down the burn and add the thicker pieces to maintain the fire. I'll be sure to start with small loads. Thanks again, kennyp.

 

[jetsam]

Pallet wood has a tendency to “take off” and go nuclear because it’s dried wood, offers lots of surface area.
There is a learning curve when burning it. When you first start to use it start off with small loads and gradually increase it.

Yeah, that. There's plenty of discussion about it on the boards if you want to search for it.

 

[kennyp2339]

I intend to stack the flat pallet wood pieces close together so as to slow down the burn and add the thicker pieces to maintain the fire. I'll be sure to start with small loads. Thanks again, kennyp.

Lol - don’t do that, sticking boards together to make a long flat surface = bad, have you ever had a bonfire where you dumped a full pallet on the pit? Lots of flames and heat all at once. Just image that energy in a metal box, there’s nothing wrong with burning pallet wood or mill cut offs, it’s just a different nature of the beast once it lites off, start small and steady

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I intend to stack the flat pallet wood pieces close together so as to slow down the burn and add the thicker pieces to maintain the fire. I'll be sure to start with small loads. Thanks again, kennyp.

That works well to slow the fire down and extend the burn. And not all pallet wood is equal. If it's dense hardwood it's going to have a lot more BTU's than the soft pine my Blaze King came crated in.

 

[begreen]

Packing tight so that there is not a lot of air between the pallet 4x4s is a good idea. Loose packing will assure a more rapid burn. Until the stove pipe config is determined it's hard to say how much the draft of this installation will affect the burn. The 30NC is an eager heater. If you search on NC30 boost air, you will get some info on this stove's boost air that comes out from the dog house, front bottom and center on the firebox. If the draft is strong and the fire is hard to control some options are a stove pipe damper and restricting some of the secondary air, and some of the boost air. Magnets are a good idea for testing this so that you don't permanently alter the stove. The boost air's intakes on the 30NC are behind the front legs.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/need-more-help-with-nc30.149830/#post-2010856

 

[BKVP]

The item that should concern any user of a wood burning appliance that is installed with the home is indoor air quality.

Studies are underway to demonstrate how potential lack of draft and resulting spillage into the living space during start up and reloading can have health risks.

Reconsider location and design. Using black double wall stove pipe may allow for a taller vertical rise as a result of exiting near ceiling. The additional vertical rise, black double wall and use of (2) 45's should improve performance.