Struggling here not going as planned

[Bricks]

After about three years of reading about boilers etc. finally found a great price on EKO40, that is the good part. Original plan add insulated lean to garage for EKO, water storage and some wood storage. Needed a building permit not a problem but needed a land use permit before they would issue building permit. After adding up the cost of permits, insurance and property tax increase we have to make a big change in our plans. UGH. The idea was to save money.

I need your opinion and advice!!

Our option comes down to put the boiler and storage in our milk house ( we dairied for over 20 years).. Concrete and insulated the good thing. Our house calls for 65,000 at delta -T at 15 below F. We will have four zones, basement in floor heat, water to air in current LP furnace. hot water ( only two of us ), and the garage which calls for 37,000 BTU at Delta-T at minus 15F water to air exchanger. Garage is usually kept at 40 degrees f 85% of the time.

The underground run will be 238 feet one way with change in elevation of 5 feet up to the house. Other option run 135 ft underground entering the house in the front, with another 48 feet of pipe in the basement, for a total of 183 feet. Then running another underground 38 ft to the garage from the backside of the house. ????????????

Will one inch ID pex handle the heat load at this length? How would one go about sizing pumps and figuring head pressure? With this long of a run would all pumps be better or can I still use zone valves?

Another dumb question being the garage will be last for any heat could I just T off the return line ( using the 238 foot run ) to the boiler instead of having to plumb both lines into and out of the garage area? Or having to run a complete seperate line from the house to the garage.The 238 foot underground line runs beside the garage going to the house.

I have read so much about underground lines I am at a total loss definantly can`t afford $18 to $28 a foot. I am about cluseless at this point of what to use?

Laddomat versus 4 way valve I haven`t decerned which way there for boiler protection?

The more I read the less I know.


Hopefully this all makes sense !

Thanks

 

[stee6043]

Well I'll certainly say a shorter run is better. So I'd definitely go with option two where you have 48 feet of pipe in the basement. Any heat loss from this pipe will be lost to your house (this is a good thing).

My biggest question is - are you sure the EKO 40 can handle this load at max requirements? Do you really need to heat the garage? I don't think you'd be particularly pleased with the EKO 40 if you were asking it for 102,000btu's of load for any extended length of time. That's a very big demand. Add to that your DHW and I think you're past the point of an undersized boiler, in my humble opinion.

I don't see a technical problem with running your garage off the "return" except that with these kinds of loads you may run into problems having enough temp left in the line by the time you get to the garage. Not to mention the fact that if you cool the water too much (below 140) before it gets back to the boiler you're never going to get your boiler 100% off bypass.

If I were you I'd plumb the house only for the first year, from the front as you mentioned, and save DHW and garage for year number two. See how she fairs. As far as "which pump" is concerned, that's no big deal. If you google "taco" and "head" you should find some resources to plug in amount of pipe and other items to figure out what your head is.

What size storage are you planning? Again....if you have all of the loads you describe above pulling on your system you'll have a VERY hard time charging storage with an EKO 40......I think you need to phase your install and add shut-offs, T's, etc for future expansion if it makes sense. Last thought - 67k heat loss is HUGE. Did you run slantfin or similar?

 

[stee6043]

Just to clarify - yes, the EKO 40 is rated for somewhere in the ballpark of 140,000btu/hr. But that's with PRIME wood, perfect draft, optimal air settings for that wood/draft, etc and so on. I'm personally not seeing consistent averages anywhere near the 140k number. Hence my opinion above regarding your load compared to your boiler...

And hey - you came to the right place no matter what. You're going to love that EKO 40 if you set it up and use it correctly. Don't worry, we'll get you going. There is no problem the Boiler Room can't work around. Well....almost no problem. ha

 

[Nofossil]

Just thinking out load.....

Could you wall off a boiler room in the garage, or build an addition on the garage without the magnitude of permit and other hassles?

 

[Bricks]

[quote author="stee6043" - 67k heat loss is HUGE. Did you run slantfin or similar?[/quote]

Your not making me feel anybetter.

When I ran slant fin on the house it gave me delta-T 37000btu`s at 15 degrees below 0 . I talked to the dealer he came up with 67,000 btu`s. The garage I am estimating being I had no way of plugging in my commercial insulated overhead doors two doors at 10 foot high X 14 foot wide. R19 walls and R38 ceiling.

He felt the EKO40 would work just fine...Dosen`t matter now as it is sitting here so have to make do with.

Nofossil I have looked hard at the garage and I just do not have the room and then where would I put sorage next year? Basement is not an option at this point.

 

[Bricks]

Just thinking out load.....

Could you wall off a boiler room in the garage, or build an addition on the garage without the magnitude of permit and other hassles?

Not around here just to put steps on a house they want a land use permit and building permit. Just another tax on us. Years ago if it was less then $2000 project cost did not even need a building permit.

 

[stee6043]

[quote author="stee6043" - 67k heat loss is HUGE. Did you run slantfin or similar?

Your not making me feel anybetter.

When I ran slant fin on the house it gave me delta-T 37000btu`s at 15 degrees below 0 . I talked to the dealer he came up with 67,000 btu`s. The garage I am estimating being I had no way of plugging in my commercial insulated overhead doors two doors at 10 foot high X 14 foot wide. R19 walls and R38 ceiling.

He felt the EKO40 would work just fine...Dosen`t matter now as it is sitting here so have to make do with.

Nofossil I have looked hard at the garage and I just do not have the room and then where would I put sorage next year? Basement is not an option at this point.[/quote]

Did your dealer tell you where he came up with his numbers? Give us some specs on your house (size, year built, etc).

 

[leaddog]

I would run double 1in pex. You can get 300ft o-2 pe4x on ebay for about $220 so you can get by with about $440. I would spray foam the pipe and you should be good to go. be sure and put in a couple of 1in cheap poly lines in for extra wire runs. Make sure you keep the supply and return lines insulated between.
leaddog

 

[Sting]

is the "slatfin" calculator available again?

If yes -- please post the link

 

[Bricks]

Did your dealer tell you where he came up with his numbers? Give us some specs on your house (size, year built, etc

House is 28 X 44 Cape Cod style 1 & 1/2 stories 5 years old, 2X6 walls, 8 = 36 X 48 1= 36 X 30 double hung double glazed windows, 2= 36X 80 steel insulated entry doors, one double glazed sliding wood framed patio door 70 X 80, full poured wall basement.

 

[Medman]

I used slantfin for my house heat loss calcs, and I found it to be very close to the actual heat loss I encounter. Most winter days, we are not at worst-case temp. and wind conditions and the boiler idles a lot once house and DHW is satisfied. Even on the coldest days my boiler is idling, if I use good dry hardwood.

My run is 140' each way from house to boiler room (a walled-off section of my garage). I installed in stages like has been suggested. I put in the boiler and lines, W-A HX in the forced air furnace, and DHW heat exchanger last fall. I ran the system all winter and got a feel for operation, loading, etc. This year I am installing storage, changing to zone valves in the house, and insulating all lines in house and boiler room.

I am at about the max for 1" pex in my run. More heat load or distance, and I would have doubled up on the pipes - its cheaper than buying larger diameter pex. Definitely put in the extra tubes for wire runs, and domestic cold water pipe if you think you might ever need it. I neglected the water pipes and now regret the oversight.

Good luck and keep your head up. There is a lot to consider but also some very knowledgeable people here on the forum.

 

[stee6043]

Did your dealer tell you where he came up with his numbers? Give us some specs on your house (size, year built, etc

House is 28 X 44 Cape Cod style 1 & 1/2 stories 5 years old, 2X6 walls, 8 = 36 X 48 1= 36 X 30 double hung double glazed windows, 2= 36X 80 steel insulated entry doors, one double glazed sliding wood framed patio door 70 X 80, full poured wall basement.

Based on this I highly doubt you're going to see 60k+ heat loss on anything but an act-of-God type day, if even then. I heat 3200 square feet with an EKO 40 and there were only a handfull of days last year when I was feeding it more than 2.5 loads per day...my heat load hovers around 30-35k/hr on an average winter day. Pretty close to what slantfin was telling me, if not a bit lower.

 

[Nofossil]

Keep in mind that in most regions, the average heat load is half the peak heat load. If you don't have enough extra to put much into storage on the coldest day of the year, you'll be able to put half your output into storage on average.....

 

[jebatty]

You are aware that 1" line is rated for 80,000 btu's? The Tarm 40 also is rated at 140,000 btu's, by typical burns run between 80,000-130,000, with a solid average around the 100,000 btu mark at a delta-T of 20F.