Stove for a new construction cabin - advice please?

[davstev]

Hi,

I am building a new construction modern/rustic cabin in Rappahannock County, Virginia. My wife and I have been around and around on wood stoves -- I have been in these forums more than is healthy. We are struggling to find a stove that meets all of our requirements and interests ... I would appreciate your advice and recommendations.

The building:
* 1100 square feet.
* The living area has a shed roof, so call it floor-and-a-half volume (8 ft at low end to 12 ft at high end). The sleeping area has a couple of half-height sleeping lofts.
* Full basement, 1/3 cut into the hillside.
* Modern/tight construction -- spray foam everywhere (including the basement walls) - R49 in the roof.
* We will put in some air handling / duct work to move hot air from the living area to the sleeping areas and pull cold air back to the living area.
* Fully off-grid. Solar power, roof-capture cistern for water, etc.
* No backup or secondary heat. Just the wood stove. (Maybe a small propane heater in the basement to keep the cistern rig from freezing).
* Stovepipe will run straight up through the roof.

Climate and usage:
* It's a weekend place, maybe occasional weeks.
* Fall and spring use is "seasonal" - not too cold. Winters can get cold but not that cold.
* It's a windy and exposed location, especially in the winter and spring.

Requirements and interests (which I would take a redirect on if you think I'm thinking about it wrong):
* Want a non-cat stove, because of our largely seasonal, weekend-y, intermittent use.
* Have been looking at stoves sized for ~1200-1500 sq feet, seem to mostly be 1.5 - 1.6 cu ft fireboxes.
* Prefer cast iron in the hope of sitting around a warm stove in the winter.
* We'll need intake air (direct feed to the firebox) as the house is so tight.
* My wife wants to be able to see the fire, enjoy looking at the fire, see the logs from the side. Her parents have a discontinued wood stove that has a glass front door and a side load door, like the Jotul F500 Oslo, and she wants something like that.

Options we've been looking at:
* The Jotul F35 or F45 -- seems to meet most requirements (non-cat, air intake, sized right), BUT it's a N-S loader. So can't watch the fire from the side.
* Morso 7100B -- E-W loader, but it seems undersized for our space?
* PE Alderlea T4 LE -- seems to meet all criteria, it's an E-W loader.
* Ambiance Outlander 15 or 19 -- again, meets most, it's an E-W loader, but no direct outside air?

Questions we'd appreciate your advice on:
* Are we reasonable to want a non-cat stove? It rules out a bunch of manufacturers.
* How would you think about sizing? e.g. F35 or F45, T4 or T5?
* Do you think E-W loaders are going to make us crazy? We have been spoiled by my in-laws' mini-Oslo functionality.
* Any specific recommendations, either from this list or other stoves we've missed?
* Bonus question: should we use insulated stovepipe through the conditioned space? Seems to help with creosote build-up?

That's a lot. Thanks for any advice you can share. This forum has been super helpful to us narrowing the options.

 

[begreen]

Does the 1100 sq ft include the basement? If not, get some extra capacity. Look more toward 2 cu ft stoves. It takes a lot of extra heat to warm up the interior mass of the house. Build smaller fires in milder weather. The Jotul F45 or the PE Alderlea T5 are better fits.

The heat is going to pocket at the 12' roof peak area. Closing it off and maintaining an 8 or 9' ceiling will make the place easier to heat passively.

 

[davstev]

Does the 1100 sq ft include the basement? If not, get some extra capacity. Look more toward 2 cu ft stoves. It takes a lot of extra heat to warm up the interior mass of the house. Build smaller fires in milder weather. The Jotul F45 or the PE Alderlea T5 are better fits.

The heat is going to pocket at the 12' roof peak area. Closing it off and maintaining an 8 or 9' ceiling will make the place easier to heat passively.

1100 sq ft does not include the basement. It's the footprint of the building. But we won't try to heat the basement either -- it's just storage and the cistern.

We will have a couple of ceiling fans to push the air around in the roof peak area ... not perfect but hopefully helpful.

Thank you for the advice!

 

[begreen]

Ah, I wasn't sure about the power. What is the source of power for the home?
Ceiling fans will definitely help. Setting one to reverse (blow upward) will create a convective loop across the room.

 

[davstev]

Ah, I wasn't sure about the power. What is the source of power for the home?
Ceiling fans will definitely help. Setting one to reverse (blow upward) will create a convective loop across the room.

We'll have solar panels on the roof and a backup generator to keep the batteries topped off. Our original concept was no electricity but that didn't turn out to be an option.

One up and one down is smart -- hadn't thought of that.

I've read through your posts and you seem like a real fan of the T5 ... it seems like it has everything we'd want except E-W loading. Maybe that's the casualty here?

Thank you again.

 

[begreen]

We'll have solar panels on the roof and a backup generator to keep the batteries topped off. Our original concept was no electricity but that didn't turn out to be an option.

One up and one down is smart -- hadn't thought of that.

I've read through your posts and you seem like a real fan of the T5 ... it seems like it has everything we'd want except E-W loading. Maybe that's the casualty here?

Thank you again.

The T5 and F45 have relatively square fireboxes that can be loaded in either direction with standard 16" long splits. My preference is N/S loading. This allows for fully loading the stove without concern of wood rolling up against the glass. That concern is why E/W stoves can not be loaded fully and why the practical working capacity can be well below the rated firebox capacity.

 

[davstev]

The T5 and F45 have relatively square fireboxes that can be loaded in either direction with standard 16" long splits. My preference is N/S loading. This allows for fully loading the stove without concern of wood rolling up against the glass. That concern is why E/W stoves can not be loaded fully and why the practical working capacity can be well below the rated firebox capacity.

Thank you. I can sell that. E/W loading for the seasonal fires for my wife to enjoy, and N/S for full loads in the winter. We're cutting our own wood (so much dead ash), so 16" is fine.

Last question: what would you see as the deal-maker or deal-breaker between the F45 and the T5? They seem similar. You write elsewhere that the T5 can run well with a half load -- is that the answer?

 

[EbS-P]

Your weekend usage, no other heat source. and tight sprayfoam construction put your heating demands in a very wide range. Have you considered a small minisplit heatpump?

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Stove will likely need an outside air kit.

It will take a good bit of heat to get up to temp when you arrive and probably not much to maintain desired temp. Explore the Blaze king lineup.

From the list I think the f45 or T5 woul be my choice. But a blaze king could work well.

 

[ericm979]

Not sure why weekend use precludes a cat stove. With a cat stove you will be able to turn the heat output down farther than with a non cat EPA stove. That narrows or eliminates the temperature range where its cold enough to need heat but the stove puts out too much heat on its lowest setting. If you have another form of heat it's not a big deal as you can just run that but when the stove is your only heat it might be more important.

 

[EbS-P]

Not sure why weekend use precludes a cat stove. With a cat stove you will be able to turn the heat output down farther than with a non cat EPA stove. That narrows or eliminates the temperature range where its cold enough to need heat but the stove puts out too much heat on its lowest setting. If you have another form of heat it's not a big deal as you can just run that but when the stove is your only heat it might be more important.

I think it’s lack fire view that kept them off the list.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I’d look to smaller than a 2 cu ft firebox. If you’re 1/3 underground and spray foamed, you’re probably going to be pulling ground temperature. You may only get down to 40 or so inside when the air is well below freezing.

I wonder if there is a way to do a heat loss calculation for a partial underground unit.

If you are starting off at 40, you don’t need the large size to overcome the ambient temperature. It’d be real easy to overheat a small place with good insulation. Since part of the building is underground, it’d be hard to let heat out of that side too.

did your contractor give you any heat loss numbers? You may be able to heat it with a candle.

 

[begreen]

Thank you. I can sell that. E/W loading for the seasonal fires for my wife to enjoy, and N/S for full loads in the winter. We're cutting our own wood (so much dead ash), so 16" is fine.

Last question: what would you see as the deal-maker or deal-breaker between the F45 and the T5? They seem similar. You write elsewhere that the T5 can run well with a half load -- is that the answer?

The T5 will work on a shorter chimney and weaker draft. It's baffle is easier to remove for cleaning. The F45 has better door hardware and ash pan system but the trivet top on the T5 is da bomb if one likes to cook on the stove.

 

[ericm979]

I think it’s lack fire view that kept them off the list.

I was referring to the OP's "* Want a non-cat stove, because of our largely seasonal, weekend-y, intermittent use."

Don't most cat stoves have glass fronts?

I mention cat stoves because I was biased against them when I bought my stove and now that I know more I'd probably make that decision differently.

 

[davstev]

Thanks so much for all the advice. We are getting a heat load calculation, may have it as soon as tomorrow. Our architect is more aligned with "could heat it with a candle." Hopefully we can put some numbers on it.

On the cat front -- I read in a number of places, including (I believe) this website, that cat stoves are better for long continuous steady burns (presumably over many days) rather than intermittent burns of varying intensity. They also sound fussier in terms of startup and maintenance. We are way up the mountain and trying for simplicity of use and maintenance. I'm open to being turned around on this.

 

[BKVP]

Thanks so much for all the advice. We are getting a heat load calculation, may have it as soon as tomorrow. Our architect is more aligned with "could heat it with a candle." Hopefully we can put some numbers on it.

On the cat front -- I read in a number of places, including (I believe) this website, that cat stoves are better for long continuous steady burns (presumably over many days) rather than intermittent burns of varying intensity. They also sound fussier in terms of startup and maintenance. We are way up the mountain and trying for simplicity of use and maintenance. I'm open to being turned around on this.

You should purchase the stove that looks the very best to you. A recent, about to be released study by Environment Canada, will dispell certain "tales" as to cataltyic and secondary combustion stoves. I'll post that study once permitted.

If this is just a weekend cabin and you wish to produce fast, melt your face heat, there are plenty of stoves to choose from. Many for under $1500.00

Rereading you post, the issue of flame visibility is achievable with all wood stoves with dry wood and proper draft. I would suggest a secondary combustion stove will provide more flame in the lowest burn rates. Obviously not as efficient but who cares if you have all the wood you need and want flames.

Look for a stove that has a direct connect for fresh air, that will prove to be beneficial. It's a small sample size but you may even find a less costly model that qualifies for the 25C tax credit.

Congratulations on your new project!

BKVP

 

[EbS-P]

Thanks so much for all the advice. We are getting a heat load calculation, may have it as soon as tomorrow. Our architect is more aligned with "could heat it with a candle." Hopefully we can put some numbers on it.

On the cat front -- I read in a number of places, including (I believe) this website, that cat stoves are better for long continuous steady burns (presumably over many days) rather than intermittent burns of varying intensity. They also sound fussier in terms of startup and maintenance. We are way up the mountain and trying for simplicity of use and maintenance. I'm open to being turned around on this.

The heat it with a candle may be true but candles won’t bring the cabin and all its contents up 20-30 degrees. Heat loss and heating up are two different things. Hence the suggestions of larger stoves. But once up to temp and wanting to watch a fire you might want to consider a stove that allows burning with the door open. Reason being it is much less efficient. A lot of warm room air goes up the chimney and get replaced by outside air.

Brings me to a second point. Do you have outside ventilation? A window works but many tight homes are using ERVs or ventilating dehumidifiers.

I think a lot depends on what level of comfort you are wanting and what level of discomfort you are will to tolerate.

 

[Todd]

Sounds like a pretty cool place. I have the F45 and it has no problem burning clean with half loads or even throwing a couple splits in every few hours to maintain a comfy temp. It’s very easy to operate and the glass stays very clean.

My neighbors have a PE Super 27 which has the same firebox as the T5 and they love it. No problem burning smaller loads as well.

 

[davstev]

Heard from our contractor. Here are the heat load numbers:

The whole house including basement is 42,000 BTU

Without basement is 29,000 BTU

What does that mean for stove sizing? We don't need to heat the basement - it's just storage, utilities, and the cistern. Does this push us back down to F35 / T4? Smaller? I don't really understand the difference between listed BTU for stoves and "EPA load" BTUs. Appreciate your advice here.

@EbS-P we are working on ventilation. We plan to have outside air direct to the stove. We will also have some kind of makeup air intake for makeup air for bathroom and kitchen fan. The current proposal from the HVAC guy is for a full house air handler system and I'm trying to back it down to just pushing air around a bit upstairs and dehumidifying it.

The dehumidification is the important thing - it's super humid in the Blue Ridge in the summer and we don't want mold.

@BKVP so far the winner of "looks best" is the Morso 7110B ... but I have a hard time thinking a 1 cu ft firebox is enough. It looks like a toy stove to me.

One more piece of information. We're on a knoll that's super windy in the winter and spring. I think that means the draft is fine and if anything we need something to reduce draft (like a key damper) in those seasons?

Our original concept was a cabin with battery lights and a wood stove. We seem to be most of the way to a house. Dehumidification seems important and getting fresh air into the house seems important. Still trying to keep it simple.

Thanks again guys.

 

[BKVP]

Put your air inlet for the fresh air out of wind and watch for snow accumulation which could block the inlet. Had a buddy on a hill and his fresh air inlet needed constant clearing do to snow and when winds blew hard, the stove overfired. Morso are great looking units.

BKVP

 

[EbS-P]

Heard from our contractor. Here are the heat load numbers:



What does that mean for stove sizing? We don't need to heat the basement - it's just storage, utilities, and the cistern. Does this push us back down to F35 / T4? Smaller? I don't really understand the difference between listed BTU for stoves and "EPA load" BTUs. Appreciate your advice here.

@EbS-P we are working on ventilation. We plan to have outside air direct to the stove. We will also have some kind of makeup air intake for makeup air for bathroom and kitchen fan. The current proposal from the HVAC guy is for a full house air handler system and I'm trying to back it down to just pushing air around a bit upstairs and dehumidifying it.

The dehumidification is the important thing - it's super humid in the Blue Ridge in the summer and we don't want mold.

@BKVP so far the winner of "looks best" is the Morso 7110B ... but I have a hard time thinking a 1 cu ft firebox is enough. It looks like a toy stove to me.

One more piece of information. We're on a knoll that's super windy in the winter and spring. I think that means the draft is fine and if anything we need something to reduce draft (like a key damper) in those seasons?

Our original concept was a cabin with battery lights and a wood stove. We seem to be most of the way to a house. Dehumidification seems important and getting fresh air into the house seems important. Still trying to keep it simple.

Thanks again guys.

That’s a lot of candles As for stoves you probably want to stay around the 2 cu ft range. If nothing more just for the longer burn times in the dead of winter and heating the house. Go T5 or F45 size. Or Blaze King.

As for ventilation. You need to strongly consider a whole house ventilating dehumidifier tied in to what ever ductwork you end up with. You will want a controller for the dehumidifier that allows just ventilation (no dehumidification just the blower fan). Go with the controller that the dehumidifier manufacturer offers. You could step it up a notch and use a damper controller on the fresh air side but it gets more complicated. Some use a CO2 meter/controller to activate the damper. You are really getting in to high performance HVAC at that point and I’m guessing only 2% of contractors have done anything like it.

But I highly recommend the whole house dehumidifier.

I just installed a whole house dehumidifier. It’s lovely. Best money I’ve spent in a while. I’ve got a thread where. Discuss ventilation. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...d-indoor-air-quality-hearth-com-style.198427/

 

[begreen]

The HVAC sizing is helpful, but it does not account for the large temperature movement required to bring the house up to temperature. Going up a size for the stove will provide the additional, required heat. Remember, that raising the house temp say 30º is not just about raising the air temp. The mass of the interior also needs to warm up. This includes sheetrock, woodwork, flooring, furniture, cabinetry, etc. That will take more than 29,000 BTUs. After the place is warmed up, run the stove on a lower load of fuel. This is different than the peak output of the stove. The stoves being considered can be run with a low output of around 11-13,000 BTUs/hr.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

That’s a lot more btus than I figured you’d need. Are there an awful lot of windows?

I agree that a 2 cubic foot stove would work for that. You may be warm until it gets down below 30 though.

 

[begreen]

Friends up north heat their well-insulted, 1600 sq ft place with the Summit. This is their primary source of heat so it's started often when the outside temp is 50º. They like it cool for sleeping so typically the stove is taking the house up from 62 to 70 degrees in a morning warmup and then maybe a little boost in the evening if it is a rainy day. No boost is needed if it is sunny. This could be a 3 stick fire at those temps. I've house sat for them with outside temps at 45º and it was easy to keep comfortable. They don't run full loads until it gets in the low 20s or colder.

 

[davstev]

Yes a lot of windows. It's a cabin but "rustic modern" = windows. We will meet with the HVAC guy on the 18th. 2 cu ft seems like the right bet from what we've heard so far ... more after that meeting. Thanks guys.

 

[mcdougy]

Is there internet available at the cabin location? There are many heater options that can be turned on via internet that allow you to start the preheat of the cabin before you get there. Once you've arrived you can get the stove going to maintain the desired temp. These wifi heaters can be as simple as a few baseboard heaters or a minisplit if A/C is wanted.