St. Croix York, not enough heat??

[jaybyer]

I purchased a St. Croix York fireplace insert and have been using it for about 6 weeks now. I am using Warm Front pellets by New England Pellets. My chimney is about 35' tall. I clean the ash pans and vacuum the stove daily. The damper setting is about 90% closed, as is recommended in the manual, although I have tried various positions to make it work better. It runs on heat level #3 full time, 24/7. My problem is I am not getting enough heat. The room it is installed in (240 sq. ft.) is around 75 in front of the stove, 15' away across the room it's 68, and 20' away in the next room it's 60. The only way I can keep my first floor warm is to use my oil heating system. The first floor is around 1,000 sq. ft. with a relatively open floor plan. The second floor gets no benefit from the stove. My flame is very lopsided, about 4" tall on the left, nothing in the middle, and about 1" on the right, so I do not get that "fan pattern" flame. I have tried turning the heat level up with no change. The dealer is not sure what the problem is, initially feeling it was the pellets. I have tried other kinds of pellets, currently Lignetics, but no matter what I am getting no more heat out of this pellet stove that I got from having a regular fire in the fireplace, but at considerably more cost. For the amount of heat I get from the pellet stove, I could have just bought a cord of wood since I am using just as much oil in order to keep my house warm. Does anyone have any experience with the York stove, and have any ideas on the problem??

JB

 

[krooser]

Be sure the rod that controls the ash shaker (that cleans the fire pot) is fully closed. I had a lazy flame problem on my St Croix pepin stove that was caused by not pushing the rod fully in. Be sure your VersaGrate is properly seated in the fire pot. Sometimes it takes a little wiggling to get it to seat properly... or you may have to allow the auger to run a few seconds (shut the door and turn on the stove for a few seconds) in order to allow the VersaGrate to seat properly on the shaft.

the flame on my stove on level 3 is about 12" tall and very active...

Your stove is only a 40,000 btu maximum. That means 40K on the highest heat setting... but my St Croix freestanding stove is a little bigger but the heat will melt you face at 5 feet.

 

[Xena]

If your air intake pipe is lengthy you may want
to try cracking your damper open another 1/16".
I know the manual says to keep the damper
closer to closed with long vertical exhaust runs,
but 1/16" isn't much and it may give the fire the
air it needs to produce the right flame. I've got about a 14 foot
run on my air intake and notice I do have to open
the damper considerably more than before I added
the outside air, in order to pull in enough
oxygen to make the stove run properly.

If you look at the different operating manuals for different
models, you'll see that these St Croix stoves are basically
the same with the differences being exterior design.

 

[jaybyer]

Thanks for the quick reply..........all of those things have been checked numerous times. The door at the bottom to get to the ash pans is closed properly, the versa grate is seated properly, I'm not sure what you mean by the ash shaker rod. The only rod is the tube scraper at the top, which I pull in and out several times a day as well. I am not sure if my expectations were too high for this unit, but I thought I could heat my first floor at least. Like I said, even standing within 2' of the stove right in front, it's not that warm, and 15' away it's very cold, mostly because the next room, a direct shot from the stove with a 4' wide opening, is 15 degrees colder so you feel a constant draft from the cold room. I also have a ceiling fan in the room on low blowing up to help move the heat, which i have tried both on and off with no change. The flame patters seems to be an issue. I tried to attach a photo, but the file size was too big.

JB

 

[krooser]

Thanks for the quick reply..........all of those things have been checked numerous times. The door at the bottom to get to the ash pans is closed properly, the versa grate is seated properly, I'm not sure what you mean by the ash shaker rod. The only rod is the tube scraper at the top, which I pull in and out several times a day as well. I am not sure if my expectations were too high for this unit, but I thought I could heat my first floor at least. Like I said, even standing within 2' of the stove right in front, it's not that warm, and 15' away it's very cold, mostly because the next room, a direct shot from the stove with a 4' wide opening, is 15 degrees colder so you feel a constant draft from the cold room. I also have a ceiling fan in the room on low blowing up to help move the heat, which i have tried both on and off with no change. The flame patters seems to be an issue. I tried to attach a photo, but the file size was too big.

JB

My Pepin stove has a rod that allow you to shake your firepot clean everyday. But it also allows outside air to come in under the firepot and that causes a lazy flame. It must be pushed all the in in order for the flame to get hot and active.

To post a photo try using a 3rd party photo hosting site like Photobucket or Flikr. Set that up, move your pix to that site (they also stay on your hard drive) and post your photos from there. The site will automatically resize your pix to fit over here.

 

[jaybyer]

Is the air intake different that the exhaust out the flue? I know there is an optional outside air connection, but the dealer didn't install that. I have a flex pipe run up my existing flue, so I have wondered where the stove gets the air flow from?

Attached is a picture of the flame pattern. Maybe this will help.

JB

 

[Skinn]

I have a St. Croix hastings but as was said most of the St. Croix seem to be very similar as far as internals go. My friend has a york and he heats his house with it, no trouble at all. He has a one level ranch around 1300-1400 sq. ft. My stove is on 3 right now and it has a beautiful wide fan flame around 10-12 inches high. Maybe you need an outside air kit? Not sure how the inserts work but with my free standing stove you have another pipe that is plumbed outside of your house that draws in fresh air. I have heard that if your house is sealed really well then you could end up with a lazy flame requiring an outside air kit but I am fairly new to this so not real sure. I can tell you that you should be getting alot more heat out of your stove though so I would press the dealer for answers.

 

[krooser]

sorry for the duplicate post..

 

[krooser]

First I'd adjust the air intake damper. It will be on the left side of your stove... probably at the side or, perhaps, behind it. Open the damper the diameter of a pencil... that's all the air it should need.

I called my dealer Earth Sense Enery Systems. The service tech, Sherry, said you must be sure your ash pan door is completely closed. If it's not seated properly you will have a lazy flame.

If you have been running your stove on 2 or 3 for 6 weeks it probably needs to be throughly cleaned especially if you've had this lazy, inefficient flame. Last year I failed to close the shaker that cleans my firepot. I ran that way for a week and the stove started to act just like yours does... no heat, lazy flame. The ESES tech came out and worked his magic with his leaf blower cleaning system and it's been good to go ever since.

Pull the firepot apart, clean everything including the area behind the two little trap doors at the bottom, and at either side, of the back wall above the ash pan.

ESES also recommends that you run your stove on 4 or 5 for at least one hour every week to get it hot enough to burn away creosote build-up in the stove. I crank mine to 6 every morning (or my wife does) while we shower and get ready for the day. Then we run it on 2, 3 or 4 depending on the weather.

You do not have the shaker rod on your stove like I have on my Pepin.

I'm convinced you have a dirty stove AND your ash pan door may not be sealed properly.

I just talked to my service dept at my dealer... they would be happy to walk you through this problem. Call 920-779-6647. Ask for the service dept. Tell them one of their customers said that they would be willing to help you out. Good people with years and years of experience.

 

[paulslush]

I don't know if this will help but here it goes. You mentioned that the flame did not change when changing the heat level. I had a call couple of weeks ago from a customer with the same complaint, he did not have the stove in the manual mode and he did not have a t-stat hooked up so it was idling on the lowest setting. That's what happens in t-stat mode, it will idle until the stat calls for heat then it will increase the heat to the level you set it to. When the stat reaches temp and opens the stove will idle at #1 setting. Smart stat works the same way but after one hour of no call for heat from the t stat it will shut down. Even if its not your problem I am sure that will help you understand the operation of the panel. I know the manual is hard to follow. Good luck

 

[krooser]

I don't know if this will help but here it goes. You mentioned that the flame did not change when changing the heat level. I had a call couple of weeks ago from a customer with the same complaint, he did not have the stove in the manual mode and he did not have a t-stat hooked up so it was idling on the lowest setting. That's what happens in t-stat mode, it will idle until the stat calls for heat then it will increase the heat to the level you set it to. When the stat reaches temp and opens the stove will idle at #1 setting. Smart stat works the same way but after one hour of no call for heat from the t stat it will shut down. Even if its not your problem I am sure that will help you understand the operation of the panel. I know the manual is hard to follow. Good luck

Good point...

 

[relxn88]

I have a St. Croix insert in a room of 280sq and a cape cod 2 floor house. If you run it on manual(switch all the way to the right), the stove will run at whatever heat setting (1 thru 5) that it is set for. As stated previously, the thermostat mode only works if you have a themostat hooked up to the red and white wires from the stove. I have the cleanout door(from in the fireplace)off and I opened the cleanout door in the cellar. This supplys all the combustion air I need. Actually, the St. Croix also gets combustion and house heating air from the cutout slots on both sides of the stove. The St. croix combustion inlet has a damper in it that opens and closes with the damper knob on the side of the stove. I'm sure you have checked that to work properly. One of the ways to check the stove is the Auger light. When the stove is idling, the auger light goes on and off about every 7 or 8 seconds. The 5 setting for heat would have the auger light going on and off every (I'm not sure, but it's in the manual) 3 seconds. The more pellet feed, the more heat(if enough air is being supplied).

I ran the thermostat wires and the electric power cord thru my cleanout door(in the fireplace) to the basement. From there I ran the thermostat wires up thru the wall into my kitchen and put a digital thermostat on the wall next to the oil furnace thermostat. I have a 8 inch fan on the upper part of the door jamb of the fireplace room blowing the heat out of the fireplace room, down the hallway towards the kitchen. I also have a small 12" tower fan in the hallway blowing the cold air back towards the stove. This seems to work for my home and keeps the pellet stove room at 74 and the rest of the first floor about 70. I keep the upstairs bedrooms closed at night(they're all electric). I had hoped the pellet stove would mean never having to use oil again, but that isn't going to happen. The nights have been in the teens and although the pellet stove (on the 3 setting in thermostat mode set at 68) has kept my house relatively warm(67 - 68 all night), it struggles at 5am to get the house to 70, so I run the oil furnace from 5am to 5:45 am to help give the boost that seems to help on the colder nights. The oil furnace doesn't actually run constantly for 45 minutes, it just runs until the house goes from 68 to 70. Usually that's about 15 to 30 minutes or 1/2 gallon of fuel oil.
If your stove where running properly on the 5 setting, you should see flames that take up 2/3s of all the firebrick background. I have a meat thermometer in the heat output grill and on the stove's #1 setting I get about 100 degrees, on the #3 setting I get about 170+ and on the #5 setting I get about 220 degrees. I run the 5 setting about once a week for an hour, just to burn everything in the stove and the exhaust.
One last thought, you should hear a noticeable difference in the fan noise if the stove goes from #1 setting to # setting.
I hope any of this helps. Let us know what you find. Good Luck.

 

[webbie]

I purchased a St. Croix York fireplace insert and have been using it for about 6 weeks now. I am using Warm Front pellets by New England Pellets.
JB

First thing - when reporting low heat it is important to tell us exactly how many lbs of pellets you are burning in 24 hours. Always remember, it is the pellets which put out the heat.....in this weather unless you are burning 2 bags or more in 24 hours (3+ lbs/hr), you are not on high heat mode! In fact, the full input of that stove would be 5 lbs per hour or 3 bags in a 24 hours period, although very few people would use it that way.

If your chimney lined to the top with a smaller pipe? If so, I suspect an overdraft which can suck heat up the chimney.

Also - we have discussed here many times that fireplace inserts (wood, pellet, gas, coal...fuel does not matter) are often much less efficient than freestanding stoves - for a couple reasons:

1. When installed into exterior masonry fireplaces, the cold mass of the fireplace can take a lot of heat and soak it in.
2. Inserts may or may not have been designed and tested in extreme conditions (exterior fireplaces, cold winds, etc.)

This stuff could combine to take a 70% efficient pellet stove down to 50%...a 30% decrease in heat produced.

First thing to do is get that flame right.......once you get that taken care of we can discuss the other options.

BTW, do you have a tight fitting block off plate installed right above the fireplace lintel?
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

 

[jaybyer]

I'll try to address all the most recent comments. These are all great things for comparison. I do not have the thermostat installed, on the recommendation of the dealer, who suggests running it on heat level #3 full time, which is what I do. Yes, I do turn it to #5 for 30 - 60 minutes a day for self cleaning. The switch is set to manual. The ash clean out door at the bottom of the stove is closed properly. The damper knob is about 90% closed, again based on what the manual says. I just checked the auger light, set on #3 it blinks to feed about every 7 seconds. I just checked the temperature directly coming out of the top of the stove with an instant meat thermometer, 170 degrees. I just looked and the door in the basement for ash clean out for the fireplace was opened, so I am guessing when the stove was installed and wired they did it then. I know the plate is open inside the fireplace because we ran the electrical connection down that opening. That would supply some air.

I am just finishing up burning 2 bags of Lignetics pellets, instead of the Warm Front pellets. The flame is still somewhat lopsided, but not as bad as in the photo I posted earlier. The heat level seems better, too but it was still 62 in the surrounding rooms at 7:00 am this morning. It is around 25 degrees today, but was probably in the teens last night. I did notice the glass is much cleaner than with the Warm Front pellets, which always built up that black creosote on the glass. One question I have been asking is whether my expectations for how much of my house I could heat with this were too high. My first floor is around 1,100 sq. ft, second floor the same. My hope was to deal with the first floor, and whatever heat drifted upstairs would be great. The farthest point from the stove has always been the coldest part of my house and still is, so maybe I need to better insulate that end of the house?

I have been burning about 1 - 1.5 bags of pellets a day since it has gotten colder. I fill it up twice a day, and top it off at bedtime. Even though it says it can hold 40 lbs. there is no way to get a full bag in the hopper! As for the efficiency of inserts as opposed to free standing, I cannot say whether this is an issue. My dealer says he has the exact same model I have, York insert, and his seems to be fine. I agree with the Webmaster, I need to get the flame straightened out, which although better with Lignetics, still burning mostly on one side. It may be that the Warm Front pellets do not burn well in my situation, and I plan on comparing the temperature tomorrow when I am back on Warm Front, the Lignetics should have burned through by then. If I notice a drop that will be an indicator, but the flame pattern, as pictures seems to be my biggest problem.

I will post if I get a solution from the dealer. This is a great forum, I have learned more about pellet stoves that I ever could have on my own. Thanks.

JB

 

[relxn88]

It sounds like you may be feeling a little better about the stove. As I said in a previous message, your house and mine sound similiar. I have 1200 sqft on bottom floor. My own personal opinion is your dealer is wrong about not having the thermostat wired up(as long as it's not in the same room as the pellet stove). When it was early(October) I used the smartstat setting and the stove would run once or twice a day. As the weather got a little colder (40's) I started to use the regular thermostat setting(middle position) and the stove would run for a couple a hours and then lope on the low setting for several hours. This saves pellets. Now with the weather in the teens(at night) I run it on manual during the day, but put it back on thermostat (for a couple of degree setback) when I go to bed. Today was the first day I've used more than one bag. Running on the #3 setting is 3+lbs per hr. So, if you did that for 24 hrs on the manual setting, you would use 72+lbs of pellets per day. The thermostat helps with using less pellets. I bought one of the cheap Rite-Temp digital thermometers at Home Depot. I guess any one of the thermometers that uses batteries is ok to use.
Right now, I'm on the thermostat setting (middle postion) and I have the stove set to the #3 heat setting. The thermostat is not calling for heat, so it's actually idleing at the #1 setting(even though the #3 light is lit) and the auger light goes on and off every 7 to 8 seconds. If your auger light is going on and off every 7 or 8 seconds, your stove is just idling. Just a thought.

 

[jaybyer]

After giving a couple more days, no I am not feeling any better about the performance of the stove. I do think it burned hotter and provided more heat with Lignetics pellets than Warm Front pellets, but basically my house is whatever temperature I set my oil heating system for. First floor was 62 this morning, exactly what the oil heat was set for, upstairs 58 as set. The room the pellet stove is in is definitely warmer, maybe 72.

I took these pictures tonight after cleaning and vacuuming the stove out and turning it back on. The flame goes from burning in a V shape, flame on both sides, nothing in the middle, to my usual one sided flame. My conclusion after reading all the info on this forum, checking everything based on comments, is there is an issue with the airflow. I don't know how the air is fed into the burnpot. I heard from my dealer today. They want to check it out one more time, have been in touch with the manufacture and designers, and promise to get this working right or replace it. I will post back after this all takes place, with what was found wrong, or if it was replaced.

Attached is my current flame pattern.

JB

 

[krooser]

When you clean your stove are you taking out the fake brick and cleaning the two little trap doors on the back wall?

 

[jaybyer]

Yes, I clean vacuum then out about every 2 or 3 times I clean the rest of the stove. The two ash trap doors are located behind the ash pans in the bottom, not behind the fake brick in the back.

 

[krooser]

Yes, I clean vacuum then out about every 2 or 3 times I clean the rest of the stove. The two ash trap doors are located behind the ash pans in the bottom, not behind the fake brick in the back.

You should take a wire coathanger and run it up those passages and get 'em clean. They are the one's that were dirty and causing my poor flame issues on my Pepin stove. A simple vacuum job isn't enough... I know from experience.

 

[relxn88]

After giving a couple more days, no I am not feeling any better about the performance of the stove. I do think it burned hotter and provided more heat with Lignetics pellets than Warm Front pellets, but basically my house is whatever temperature I set my oil heating system for. First floor was 62 this morning, exactly what the oil heat was set for, upstairs 58 as set. The room the pellet stove is in is definitely warmer, maybe 72.

I took these pictures tonight after cleaning and vacuuming the stove out and turning it back on. The flame goes from burning in a V shape, flame on both sides, nothing in the middle, to my usual one sided flame. My conclusion after reading all the info on this forum, checking everything based on comments, is there is an issue with the airflow. I don't know how the air is fed into the burnpot. I heard from my dealer today. They want to check it out one more time, have been in touch with the manufacture and designers, and promise to get this working right or replace it. I will post back after this all takes place, with what was found wrong, or if it was replaced.

Attached is my current flame pattern.

JB

I'm sitting here looking at the picture of your stove and it's the exact flame as mine is right now idling. My stove has pretty much been idling along all night(it was above freezing and humid all night) and the house stayed at 70 and the stove room 72. I don't know what setting your stove was running at when you took the picture, but it lloks like it's idling to me. Perhaps you could take a picture of when it is running full blast on the setting #5. I have a question. Is your green power light steady or flashing?

Also, here is a website: (broken link removed to http://www.eventempinc.com/stcroix/downloads/dig2/Digital_Control_Board_Service_Manual.pdf) for Service and Troubles of St. Croix stoves. Page 14 describes how a specific jumper wire has to be in place for manual mode to work when a thermostat is not hooked up.
When you get your insert running correctly, I have found my York runs better, at an idle, with the FEED TRIM set to the higher setting(1 and 5 lights on) and the DRAfT TRIM (fan combustion voltage) set to it's lowest setting (2 flashes of all lights).
*NOTE: If you unplug the stove, everything goes back to the default settings.
The draft from the 25 ft. vertical chimney is considerably greater than if the exhaust was run straight out thru a wall for a couple of horizontal feet. York inserts run best with the draft knob within a 1/4 inch from all the way to the right(draft closed).
If yours is a newer stove and has the metal hearth backing, that's good. Mine was the older firebrick and it lasted 2 months before it broke and I had to buy the metal backing and side plates. Seems to me they should of had a factory recall on the firebrick instead of me shelling out $90. The reason I say that is because they "ALL" break.
Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

 

[mkmh]

Yes, I clean vacuum then out about every 2 or 3 times I clean the rest of the stove. The two ash trap doors are located behind the ash pans in the bottom, not behind the fake brick in the back.

You may want to read up on my most recent struggle with my st croix.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/29123/

You need to snake in behind the fire brick area, by way of the ash traps. My stove had a crazy amount of fine ash and deposits back there and it was leading to horrible performance. Coat hanger didn't cut it for me....had to go with a plumbing snake.
I have cleaned my stove religiously as per the manual weekly and annual cleanings on schedule for 4 years. I had never done the snake trick behind the brick area, and now i'm convinced this needs to be part of all st croix owners annual maintenance.

 

[krooser]

Yes, I clean vacuum then out about every 2 or 3 times I clean the rest of the stove. The two ash trap doors are located behind the ash pans in the bottom, not behind the fake brick in the back.

You may want to read up on my most recent struggle with my st croix.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/29123/

You need to snake in behind the fire brick area, by way of the ash traps. My stove had a crazy amount of fine ash and deposits back there and it was leading to horrible performance. Coat hanger didn't cut it for me....had to go with a plumbing snake.
I have cleaned my stove religiously as per the manual weekly and annual cleanings on schedule for 4 years. I had never done the snake trick behind the brick area, and now i'm convinced this needs to be part of all st croix owners annual maintenance.

You are correct.... that's what the leaf blower will clean out in about 15 seconds. I think that's the problem with the stove.

 

[mkmh]

I would have done the leafblower trick on my stove, but the one I had did not have the Vac feature.
The snake worked well, and it was pretty quick too. What took a long time was narrowing it down to that(convincing myself that the stove was plugged)

 

[jaybyer]

Today when I cleaned it I tried the coat hanger up both ash traps areas, and up the middle above the shaft the versa grate sits on. No real change. It is warmer today so the house is naturally warmer too. Although I understand the possibility of these areas being plugged, keep in mind my problems existed the first time it was turned on. It was brand new this year, had never been run other than for 15 minutes when it was installed. So this issue has existed from the beginning, and I would hope any everything was clean and unplugged as a new product.

Attached is a photo from this afternoon, running on heat level 5 for about 20 minutes first. All of the other photos the heat level has been set on #3.

 

[caa1]

I had the same problem but not as bad. My original problem was that the stove was noisy on settings 4 and 5, so I decided to check the level. The right side was much lower, the were also a lot of unburned pellets in the right side ash pan. After leveling the flame is even and the stove is quiet on level 4. Next weekend I will try to level it closer with some thinner shims. The way to do it is mark your stove location with a pencil. Then remove the surround and return it to the install position. Use the rear jacking screws if the rear is low. I my case the front and more so the front right was low. I used some 3" * 5" * .125" shims. There are three on the right front and one on the left front, now the right is a little to high. When I get the level perfect I hope to have level 5 quiet.