SIZING STOVES QUESTION

[jstallone]

Great forum...
I'm still debating whether I can get away with a Kennebec insert for my house. Rated at up to 1600 sq. ft., I am wondering if I can cut my fuel bills in half. I live in a 3000 sq' colonial with average insulation, masonry fireplace, and den is 440 sq. ft. with 10' ceiling. Should my strategy be to heat my downstairs, approx 1800 sq', (2 zones-upstairs and down) and hope that this will be enough to reduce my bills adequately or should I definitely get a bigger stove? Will I potentially be just blasting myself out anyway in that room? I have heard of putting on a central A/C fan to disperse heat throughout the house but then I will definitely need a bigger insert and my wife is partial to this Jotul which I also like. Has anyone had much success with wall registers to help draw heat out of a room or even ceiling registers to bring heat upstairs. I am leary about a potential fire hazard with a ceiling register if there ever was a house fire drawing flames up the register.
Also- anyone familiar with the QUAD 4100 insert which is our next best choice???

Thanks in advance- Jim

 

[BrotherBart]

I can tell you from experience that the A/C fan bit does not work. Lots of posts here verify that. All you do is burn electricity. Something people never think about when they cut registers in the floor is that sound goes through them just like heat. Be sure that the people upstairs are listening to the same TV show that you are. Or when you and the spouse are in the family room you don't say anything you don't want the kids to hear upstairs.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Good advice BB. I completly agree. Stoves are zone heaters, buy them for the zone you want to heat. Any thing else you get consider a bonus.

 

[jstallone]

THANKS GUYS... I appreciate your input- so from whaqt your saying I probably could get away with the Kennebec size and hope to handle my downstairs zone. I originally thought it only had a 1.6 cu' firebox but I called Jotul in Maine since it wasn"t on any websites and I was told actually a hair over 2.0 cu'.
The QUAD 4100 has a 2.4 cu' firebax and is rated ia bit higher BTUs but if we can do the Kennebec we would prefer it. Jotul says they hope to have a bigger insert coming out in a yr. or so.

Any opinions on optimal gauge of stainless steel for chimneys and how important it is to insulate? I'm in Long Island, NY...

 

[wg_bent]

Want a big insert? Go for a Pacific Energy Summit or an Osburn 2400i They're both huge. I think

This Country stoves x-large

that stove is also very large.

 

[Roospike]

Want a big insert? Go for a Pacific Energy Summit or an Osburn 2400i They're both huge. I think

This Country stoves x-large

that stove is also very large.

The Pacific Energy Summit is ........... well , I guess you can read it. Its a good size stove 3.0 cf fire box at max 97,000 BTU. The link to there main site ------> http://www.pacificenergy.net/ Link to the "Summit" size stove --------> (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/woodInserts.html#The%20Summit%20Insert)

 

[elkimmeg]

either stove will work, both top shelf quality. About your expectations, as mentioned stoves are zone heaters. If you sucessfully satisfy the zone wher you insert is you free up resourses to heat else where.

that said wjat other measures have you taken to cut feul /heating cost. Is every hot water pipe afor heating and domestic hot water insulater to R 5.0? If not you are loosing a tremendous amount of heat to transport and not making it to lliving space. What is the Rvalue of the insulation in the attic? do you have an insulated attic access? Does you foundation and wood sills leak have you put insulators behind the cover plate of every outside wall electrical outlet? What about changing to energy saver light bulbs
The list goes on I got you attention the stove is a particail answer to some of your needs its time to hold the heat in button your home up. Cutting holes in floors a is a dangerous practice and without proper design almost uselesss Supplies without return routes do not work the only thing one has accomplished it a potenticial expressway for disaster. your floors and ceilings are natural containment barriers prevent flame and fire spreading. Cutting a hole directly above the wood stove is the most foolish act or ignorance I hear about If something goes wrong where is the containment? tou created an expressway to disaster. I glad you havee followed Hearth.com Welcome aboard and look at a bigger picture of saving existing energy while adding a renewable source and freeing up fosil and imported oil/gas dependence

 

[jstallone]

Hey thanks a lot for all the input... I bought the Quad 4100 insert today and hope I'll be happy with it. One nice feature of it is the air wash system works on all three sides of glass door which hopefully will keep all of them clear. The chimney liner is not insulated but it is rated at 2100 degrees and it will be sealed at both the top and bottom with blocking and insulation.

Cosst approx. $4200 complete including tax chimney kit and labor. Not a bargain but I think fair and as everyone seems to feel here using a local dealer is important.

Jim

 

[seaken]

Hey thanks a lot for all the input... I bought the Quad 4100 insert today and hope I'll be happy with it. One nice feature of it is the air wash system works on all three sides of glass door which hopefully will keep all of them clear. The chimney liner is not insulated but it is rated at 2100 degrees and it will be sealed at both the top and bottom with blocking and insulation.

Cosst approx. $4200 complete including tax chimney kit and labor. Not a bargain but I think fair and as everyone seems to feel here using a local dealer is important.

Jim

I'm not sure what you mean by "rated at 2100 degrees". Is this from the dealer? What are they saying? What brand/manufacturer?

I doubt they have a UL Listing for "2100 degrees" wirthout insulation. Please explain.

Thanks,
Sean

 

[jstallone]

My understanding is that the chimney liner can handle temperatures as high as 2100 degrees which should make it more stable in the event of a chimney fire. I think this is an industry standard.

Jim

 

[Shane]

Yes it is an industry standard, however, the majority of liners require the use of insulation to meet the 2100 degree standard. We had a big discussion about this earlier in the season. The only liner I can think of that meets the 2100 degree standard w/out insulation is double wall Simpson Duravent liner.

 

[jstallone]

Ah Ha... well I hought what he meant was that the steal was strong enough to handle that kind of heat should it be presented to it. Why would insulation have anything to do with that? Is the rating supposed to mean that actually it will get the temps to 2100 and that is why you say it must have insulation to achieve this?
Anyway in my case it is a done deal I think. I just hope it won't be a problem.
Jim

 

[seaken]

My understanding is that the chimney liner can handle temperatures as high as 2100 degrees which should make it more stable in the event of a chimney fire. I think this is an industry standard.

Jim

Okay, I get it. This is not an industry "standard". It is confusing, to be sure. In short, the "standard" is UL 1777. All liners that want to meet that "standard" must pass tests for thermal transfer, one of those tests uses the 2100 degree mark. No liners can pass this test without some insulation - the nature of steel simply makes this impossible. If a masonry chimney is code compliant, with air space betwen the tile liner and the masonry mass AND air space between the masonry mass and the combustible framing (referring to standard stick-built walls, floors, and ceilings) then the steel liner does not need to be listed to this "standard".

It is irrellevent that your liner has been tested to withstand 2100 degree temperatures as far as this standard goes. The standard is not about the liner being able to withstand 2100 degrees (although there are tests for suitability and structural integrity, etc.) but instead about the system being safe when contacting combustible materials. It may be a good thing that your liner has been tested to hold up under those extreme temperaqtures but it does NOT give you a UL Listing to the UL 1777 standard. If you need the UL 1777 standard (because your chimney is not code compliant - as most are not) for safety, you MUST insulate the liner.

Shane mentioned of the Simpson Duravent brand. That brand is pre-insulated. Repeat: no steel liners can meet the UL 1777 standard for less than code complant chimneys without an insulating system.

Make sure you know what you are getting. Have the dealer fully explain the options and make an informed choice. Don't asume anything. There is a lot of confusion, even among hearth dealers and chimney sweeps on this issue. I am NOT saying that insulation is REQUIRED in your case. Only that you cannot get the UL 1777 standard without it.

Sean

 

[seaken]

Ah Ha... well I hought what he meant was that the steal was strong enough to handle that kind of heat should it be presented to it. Why would insulation have anything to do with that? Is the rating supposed to mean that actually it will get the temps to 2100 and that is why you say it must have insulation to achieve this?
Anyway in my case it is a done deal I think. I just hope it won't be a problem.
Jim

Jim, please forgive me for being so forward but you need to rethink this BEFORE you have the installation done. There is no "hoping" it won't be a problem. Make sure you know what is tested as safe and what the "standard" is. Again, you may not need the insulation. If your chimney is code compliant and there is air space between your liner and the masonry mass you may not need to meet the UL 1777 standard for heat transfer to combustibles. But make sure you understand the safety codes and how they apply to your own home before you proceed. Remember, the 2100 degree strength test you are referring to IS NOT the UL standard.

Good luck.

 

[jstallone]

Yes, you read my mind... that's exactly what I plan to do. I will speak with the installer to find out just what is being used and under what criteria these decisions are based.
I guess the installer has to come out and look at my chimney first before he can tell me or is there something simple enough that I can do. My chimney abuts the garage and the attic above it but I don't know any specifics about how the interior of it looks.

Are there any specific questions you might be able to recommend I ask the installer to insure I get a safe install???

Thanks- Jim

 

[seaken]

Yes, you read my mind... that's exactly what I plan to do. I will speak with the installer to find out just what is being used and under what criteria these decisions are based.
I guess the installer has to come out and look at my chimney first before he can tell me or is there something simple enough that I can do. My chimney abuts the garage and the attic above it but I don't know any specifics about how the interior of it looks.

Are there any specific questions you might be able to recommend I ask the installer to insure I get a safe install???

Thanks- Jim

Ask him is he can tell for certian that the chimney is code-compliant with only a level one inspection. Can he do a level two inspection? And, won't it be best to add insulation to the liner instead of going into a level three inspection?

If he doesn't know what these levels of inspection are you should DEFINITELY have the insulation wrap installed. If he has never done insulation before you should probably hire someone else who has or ask him to carefully follow the directions while you help.

Chance are he won't like this one bit. But its your house and your family. Make sure its safe.

Sean

 

[jstallone]

OK Sean- Now can you tell me what the differences are between Level 1,2, and 3 inspections are so I will know if he is being straight with me.

Thanks agian-

 

[seaken]

OK Sean- Now can you tell me what the differences are between Level 1,2, and 3 inspections are so I will know if he is being straight with me.

Thanks agian-

Okay, but just this once [grin]

In brief, level one refers to inspecting that portion of the chimney system that is readily visible with the naked eye. Level two refers to the type of inspections that may include an interior chimney scan. It is a little more in depth and provides more information about the condition of the chimney structure. Level three involves such things as removal of walls or ceiling panels to inspect the entire structure, including those parts that are hidden by other costruction matrials.

The preferred method is level two but even that is not always needed to convince a qualified chimney profesional that an insulated liner should be installed. Most of the time a level one gives enough information. We would not suggest a level three inspection if the chimney can be successfully upgraded with an insulated liner. Since the determining factor is code compliance, a level one is usually all we need. But even in a code compliant chimney a level two inspection can reveal weaknesses in the system that may point to the need for a new liner or repair.

Sean

 

[jstallone]

Thanks Sean,
By an "interior chimney scan" do you mean that he must examine the chimney with some sort of equipment... sounds like a giant colonoscopy of sorts... Do you think I can trust their opinion on what is needed since it seems everyone gets the same install?
Do they give some sort of seal stating it passes code? They did say they provide a lifetime warrantee but I'm not sure what that's worth especially if there is a safety issue. I called the stove store and they said they would get back to me on who will be doing the install since they sub it out so I can ask these questions.

Appreciate your help= Jim

 

[elkimmeg]

Jim we have a section that is available for all to view I started a primer for new buyers of stoves many of your questions you should ask are covered in the wiki Also common issues with existing chimnys check it out
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Wood_Stove_buying_Primer/

 

[seaken]

Yes, a special camera on a pole is used along with a small closed circuit monitor

I have the not faintest idea about trusting their opinion or how the locals handle the codes, etc. There is a good chance that they will just be irritated that I even suggested anything. You may get fairly good results if the intaller is CSIA or NFI certified.

Sean

Thanks Sean,
By an "interior chimney scan" do you mean that he must examine the chimney with some sort of equipment... sounds like a giant colonoscopy of sorts... Do you think I can trust their opinion on what is needed since it seems everyone gets the same install?
Do they give some sort of seal stating it passes code? They did say they provide a lifetime warrantee but I'm not sure what that's worth especially if there is a safety issue. I called the stove store and they said they would get back to me on who will be doing the install since they sub it out so I can ask these questions.

Appreciate your help= Jim