Requirements relative to a chimney for a wood stove.

[slkvt]

Good afternoon,

My wife recently registered/opened up a daycare in our home, state of VT. One of the many requirements was to hire a State (licensed) Inspector to inspect the integrity of our chimney that is used exclusively for our wood stove.

I assembled this chimney approx. >20 years ago. It consist of a nearly square, (approx. 16"), concrete block and an 8" round tile flue --- all purchased from a local reputable mason company. It is positioned within the interior of our home; from our basement concrete floor, up thru one level, (two layers of plywood flooring), then up thru the ceiling, into our attic, and thru the peak of, (or very near) of our roof; we live in a raised ranch.

A first glance, the Inspector pointed out that our chimney failed, due to having zero clearance around its outer parameter - he stated that it needs to have a 2" air space. He stated that our options were to either cut the 2" clearance around the chimney, (followed by adding some 24 ga. metal), OR to add a round 6" stainless steel insulated liner within our existing 8" tile flue. He added that by installing the 'insulted' stainless steel liner that we would not need to spend the time nor the $ to cut the 2" clearance around the outer parameter of the concrete block chimney.

I obtained a couple of quotes for the job of cutting the 2" clearance around the chimney, and adding in some metal to close off the air gap; both quotes >$1,200.00
Note, this includes making the cut/clearance throughout the entire pathway of the concrete (tile lined) chimney.

I also obtained two quotes for the task of adding in the stainless steel, 6", insulated, liner; both around >$1,400.00

After pondering over my options, I decided to ask around, including reputable chimney sweep business, VT Dept of Public Safety, trust me, the list goes on and on... No one can provide me with a documented answer to my 'key' question: 'If I have the stainless steel insulated 6" liner installed, and NOT cut the 2" air gap (installation of metal fire stop inclusive), will it, for fact, pass fire safety residential state code?

Again, you would not believe how many people, places of business that I have put forth this question to.

Obviously I want to be safe, both for my wife's daycare and of course, my families safety.

Does anyone out there no what the code is for such a potential configuration? Or, can anyone point me in the right direction to possibly obtain an accurate answer?

Thank you in advance,
Steve

 

[daryl]

Search UL 1777.
By putting a SS liner and a half inch ceramic wool insulation your chimney complys with UL 1777. Meaning your chimney is zero clearance to combustibles. Does your stove have a 8" outlet or 6" outlet.

 

[slkvt]

Good evening Daryl,

Thank you for your prompt reply. My current stove has an 8" outlet. I am aware that should I end up with the option of installing the 6" SS insulated liner that I'll then need to purchase another stove, with a 6" outlet. That's okay, the one that I have is a dinosaur, dated 1976.

Can you please clarify your entry: When you state, "By putting a SS liner and a half inch ceramic wool insulation your chimney complys with UL 1777. Meaning your chimney is zero clearance to combustibles." Are you saying that I am within fire safety code(s) via using a 6" SS insulated liner within my concrete block that is already lined with an 8" tile flue ---- what I am trying to say is, (sorry, it has been a very long day), will I be OK, (by code or law), to use the SS liner WITHOUT cutting the 2" air space around my exterior of my chimney?

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[CarbonNeutral]

6" flue, 6"stove, insulated liner, no need to cut anything

 

[cmonSTART]

As for the reference, 2006 IRC 1003.18 exception 1 confirms what Daryl said above.

 

[cmonSTART]

And to clarify my post above, some stainless liners will require 1 inch of insulation to qualify for UL1777. Homesaver UltraPro being one I think.

 

[slkvt]

Good evening Gentlemen,

This forum is incredible. Thank you for all of your replies/information/assistance and direction! I beg your pardon for being so thick headed... just to be absolutely certain;

1) I do NOT need to cut any air space around my chimney, (i.e. if I use the proper insulated SS liner), correct?
2) exactly, what SS liner do I need to purchase to ensure conformance to the aforementioned UL1777 standards (or is the proper term, code)?

Once again, thank you for all your assistance!

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[cmonSTART]

That is correct.

As for which liner to use, if you're going to have this professionally installed it might be best to find a reputable sweep in your area and see what they offer. Chances are they offer a brand which will work. There are a lot of brands.

 

[slkvt]

Thank you Dlomar!

I neglected to ask. Lets assume I do proceed to have this work done, done by a professional company, what if next year, when we have another chimney inspection, (did I mention, this is an annual requirement by our state government, for registered daycare's), ..what if we happen upon a different Inspector that questions the ZERO air space, even though there is a SS insulated liner, can you please tell me, is it clearly documented in the UL 1777 file/code that you make ref to? I simply want to cover all basis here.

Btw, did I mention that 99.99% of all of the resources, with the exception of the initial Inspector that rejected our chimney, that they ALL stated that it even if we were to install the SS insulted liner that we would STILL need to have the work done around the chimney to conform to the 2" air gap SPEC. I suspect that you can now see why I am attempting to be 100% certain that I am covered, that I am doing this correctly.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[cmonSTART]

I see why you want to be certain.

UL1777 are testing standards. A manufacturer will have their product tested to these standards and once this system meets the requirements it is listed to do so. Code allows a product listed to these standards to be installed negating the 2 inch clearance requirements assuming VT uses 2006 IRC (I'm not sure what they use).

Moreover, if someone approves your installation this year and nothing changes before next year, and next year it fails someone is going to look pretty stupid, either one of the inspectors or the installer.

 

[slkvt]

FYI, I have spoken with SOooo many government agencies, the unwritten, consensus is that I should still perform the rework thru cutting the 2" air space, (some sort of metal inserts to stop air path way inclusive). No one, I mean no one, business after topic related business, including our local state Fire Safety (sorry I forget the exact name of this organization), has been able to provide me with something in writing that clearly states that even though I install the SS liner that I STILL need to, (or that I do not need to), incorporate the 2" air space.

Does anyone of you know where I can obtain this in writing, a clearly documented statement?

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[cmonSTART]

Aside from codes you will not find this in a clearly documented statement. Bottom line is the authority having jurisdiction decides what a safe installation is. Usually this is whatever the code used in the area is, either NFPA211 or IRC. However, the AHJ has the final say and most of the time he/she will defer to the appropriate code however I suppose there's a slim chance somewhere that they will wake up one morning and decide to require the airspace in addition to the insulated liner and require you to have the work done. They can do that. I've never heard of it happening but maybe someone else has. If you want to be absolutely sure about your install, line the chimney AND put the airspace in. There's nothing wrong with being extra safe.

 

[slkvt]

Can someone, PLEASE tell me, If I add the SS insulated liner, and do NOT cut out the 2" air gap, does it or does it not pass code?

Thank you in advance,
Steve

 

[slkvt]

Thank you for the advice. Now for, what might seem like, a really dumb question. Can someone please direct me on the SPEC's for installing the metal air stop that goes around the exterior of the chimney? I was originally told by the Inspector that we hired to check out our chimney that if we do cut the 2" air gap we will need to install a 24 ga metal around the surrounding word surfaces, (e.g. the 1st floor, attic ceiling, and the roof), ...needs to have this metal. Do I need to cut a thin groove into the concrete block and cement the metal into it, and attach the other ends to the wood surface or? ANY help/guidance that you can provide me would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[cmonSTART]

If applicable in your area, 2006 IRC 1003.19, to which you are referred from the above code cited regarding your clearance issues simply states that the it "must be securely fastened in place". So, whatever your AHJ considers to be so. If it were me doing the work, this is the point where I would call them and ask exactly what they were looking for just to be safe.

NFPA211 seems a bit more vague which to my best reading says to call the AHJ.

Ouch my brain hurts.

 

[daryl]

Can someone, PLEASE tell me, If I add the SS insulated liner, and do NOT cut out the 2" air gap, does it or does it not pass code?

Thank you in advance,
Steve

In my area it always passes inspection.But some inspectors may have a different interpretation of a code by the way it is written.You can always appeal a decision by a inspector for the ones that have different view's then the majority.

 

[slkvt]

Maybe your brain hurts, however, can I borrow if for the next several days ;-)

One last question, can you 'please' tell me what 'AJH' stands for?

Thanks again!
Steve

 

[cmonSTART]

Sorry Authority Having Jurisdiction - the guy who has the authority in your area to condemn or approve an installation. Either a building inspector, fire marshall, depends on where you are.

 

[slkvt]

Thanks again! According to two different (I believe their titles were fire marshals?), our 'DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY - DIVISION OF FIRE SAFETY' they do not have ANY AHJ over residential properties - only over commercial properties. They added that they are not allowed to even take a look-see at my situation. When I say frustrated, you have no concept of just how frustrated I am with this entire issue. If I did not know better, no one single person, no one from our government can tell me for absolute fact what needs to be done.

FYI, I got a quote, just yesterday, from a roofing company that said they were going to cut a small/thin/not very deep, groove into my chimney blocks to allow inserting the metal that will need to be added between the 2" air gap and the wood surfaces (such as my floor, ceiling). Unless I am mistaken, the original guy (a state licensed) Inspector, stated that if I hire him to do the work, he was going to cut the 2" air gap, add in 24 ga metal and, damn if I can remember, spray in some fire resistant form or (whatever he called it) between the metal and the chimney's concrete block. Two different people with two completely different methods. Question is, are either of them to code?

Any other suggestions on how to obtain accurate information on exactly how and what to do for the 2" air gap? E.g. what metal to use, what ga, does it really need to be cemented into the concrete chimney blocks, or ????

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[cmonSTART]

If I did not know better, no one single person, no one from our government can tell me for absolute fact what needs to be done.

That's probably in fact the case. If calling your AHJ doesn't get you anywhere, defer to the person you hire to do the work. Code here is pretty vague as I've said. Maybe someone else can come up with something different. My brain is tired. I'm off to bed. Good luck with your chimney. Check your private message inbox up top.

 

[daryl]

Good afternoon,

My wife recently registered/opened up a daycare in our home, state of VT. One of the many requirements was to hire a State (licensed) Inspector to inspect the integrity of our chimney that is used exclusively for our wood stove.

I assembled this chimney approx. >20 years ago. It consist of a nearly square, (approx. 16"), concrete block and an 8" round tile flue --- all purchased from a local reputable mason company. It is positioned within the interior of our home; from our basement concrete floor, up thru one level, (two layers of plywood flooring), then up thru the ceiling, into our attic, and thru the peak of, (or very near) of our roof; we live in a raised ranch.

A first glance, the Inspector pointed out that our chimney failed, due to having zero clearance around its outer parameter - he stated that it needs to have a 2" air space. He stated that our options were to either cut the 2" clearance around the chimney, (followed by adding some 24 ga. metal), OR to add a round 6" stainless steel insulated liner within our existing 8" tile flue. He added that by installing the 'insulted' stainless steel liner that we would not need to spend the time nor the $ to cut the 2" clearance around the outer parameter of the concrete block chimney.

I obtained a couple of quotes for the job of cutting the 2" clearance around the chimney, and adding in some metal to close off the air gap; both quotes >$1,200.00
Note, this includes making the cut/clearance throughout the entire pathway of the concrete (tile lined) chimney.

I also obtained two quotes for the task of adding in the stainless steel, 6", insulated, liner; both around >$1,400.00

After pondering over my options, I decided to ask around, including reputable chimney sweep business, VT Dept of Public Safety, trust me, the list goes on and on... No one can provide me with a documented answer to my 'key' question: 'If I have the stainless steel insulated 6" liner installed, and NOT cut the 2" air gap (installation of metal fire stop inclusive), will it, for fact, pass fire safety residential state code?

Again, you would not believe how many people, places of business that I have put forth this question to.

Obviously I want to be safe, both for my wife's daycare and of course, my families safety.

Does anyone out there no what the code is for such a potential configuration? Or, can anyone point me in the right direction to possibly obtain an accurate answer?

Thank you in advance,
Steve

Didn't the first inspector says that is all that you needed was Insulated SS liner and then you didn't have to cut out the 2" around the chimney.

 

[fbelec]

so everybody is on the same page, have the inspector that gave you the requirements give you his answer quoting the specific codes he is talking about (code numbers) (code book) when all is said and done if the local fire dept. says it's not code compliant there is nothing anyone can say that can change it. if you had something happen and you did what made the inspector happy but not the fire dept. the insurance company will not pay because the fire dept thinks that it is a hazard.

 

[berlin]

simple solution: forget everything else, simply cut a 2" space around the masonry chimney, fill with sheet metal as instructed and you're done. If you built this chimney yourself, i don't understand why you would be trying to pay someone $1400 or so to do a simple task- creating a 2" space.

 

[slkvt]

Good morning Gentlemen,

Re the simple solution, do the work myself, cut the 2" air space: I did build the chimney, with some aid from a brother-n-law, approx. 25 yrs ago. The area that I had the most difficulty with was the flashing atop my roof/chimney.
Approx. (6) yrs ago, I hired a roofing company to redo my entire roof - at the same time, I hired a highly experienced mason to completely redo my hack-job with the flashing. This is the specific area that I am most uncomfortable with. I highly suspect that I'll need to, somehow, someway dissemble: a) the flashing from the roof shingles, b) most likely remove several shingles, (which I have no spares), then proceed to use a sawsall to cut the 2" air gap, followed by adding in some metal around the parameter of the chimney. Oh, and there's roof trusses that are also in the way --- I am guessing that these will need to be cut out and somehow reinforced structurally? I'll bet that you can sense that I am far from being warm and fuzzy with this endeavor.

Of course, I then need to do the point of entries; floor and ceiling. These later two I am much more comfortable with.

Did I mention that I got (2) quotes to do the aforementioned task? The odd thing here is that both procedures are night and day; one stated that he would add in 24 ga metal, followed by adding in some spray fire resistance foam to close out the air gaps, the other person stated that he would cut a thin gap into the concrete blocks, insert the metal and cement it in place - thus taking care of any air space/flow. I had a 3rd place of business tell me that I would need to have metal inserts fabricated at a local metal fab shop, (believe he called them "fire stops"), that would be inserted around the 2" air gap; total of (3) locations; floor, ceiling, and roof. Question is, which, or better yet, are either of these acceptable per fire code xyz?

This is only one of the reasons why I am holding off doing this myself. I need to find out exactly what is the proper method, procedures to add in the metal; what type of metal, what ga.? It's been my experience with life, (57 years of it), that nothing is ever easy.

Any additional thoughts/comments?

Steve

 

[slkvt]

Does anyone know where I can find a procedure detailing what exactly I need to use for metal (type and ga.), what is acceptable for assembly around the parameter of my chimney?

Thank you in advance,
Steve