Replacing a hearth - a few questions

[JimWalshin845]

Hello group, first time poster here but not new to woodstoves. We are replacing the hearth around an older VC Defiant stove. The stove was here when we moved in and the home was built circa 1976 so not up to code. The tiles under the stove are delaminating from the underlayment and the grout almost nonexistent.

We’re going to use ¼” concrete backer board set in mortar and tile/slate over it. And YES... extending the hearth area to code.

Question #1:

For the grouting process, is there a specific grout or grout additive that I should be looking for?

Question 2:

Will the suggested tile adhesive stand up to heat or should I lay the tile in a bed of mortar?

Question 3:

For those that have upgraded or revamped their hearth, did you go to the building inspector or have a BOCA inspection and what were the approximate costs for the inspections?

Thank you,
Jim & Kathy

(broken link removed)

 

[DriftWood]

From one old wood burner to another, No way would I keep using that stove the way its set up. Shut it down.

That hearth is unbelievable,is that carpet? Id bet the stove pipe just is shoved into the fire place box. That set up is a widow maker. Shut it down.

A 1976 stove??? If it is Id ship a 1976 smoke dragon to china and get a clean burning new EPA stove. Fixing the hearth is false economy. Time to start shopping for a newer EPA stove if its a pre epa stove. Then install the new stove on a new hearth, with a UL listed liner. Less wood to burn,less emissions, more heat and a safe install.

Any label on the back of your stove? How is it hooked to the chimney?

Oh Ya Welcome aboard!!

 

[JimWalshin845]

From one old wood burner to another, No way would I keep using that stove the way its set up. Shut it down.

That hearth is unbelievable,is that carpet? Id bet the stove pipe just is shoved into the fire place box. That set up is a widow maker. Shut it down.

A 1976 stove??? If it is Id ship a 1976 smoke dragon to china and get a clean burning new EPA stove. Fixing the hearth is false economy. Time to start shopping for a newer EPA stove if its a pre epa stove. Then install the new stove on a new hearth, with a UL listed liner. Less wood to burn,less emissions, more heat and a safe install.

Any label on the back of your stove? How is it hooked to the chimney?

Oh Ya Welcome aboard!!

Yep.... white carpet at that! Didn't really start using the stove heavily until 2 years ago and the stove is in great shape. :cheese:

As per the hookup to the flue, the inside of the fireplace is capped with heavy duty metal and the metal flue pipe is welded to it. As you can see in the photo the front of the fireplace is closed off too. The previous owner was a contractor who did a lot of metal fabrication.

We live on the edge of a State forest and get a slash permit for ZIPPO. Last year scrounged about 4 cords of real easy pickins. We can drive down almost any fire road and find deadfalls, usually OAK, right next to the road.... cut it up, load up the van, unload the van, split it, stack it and be back for lunch time.

Florida is nice and cozy from mid-January to May and that is where we winter.... so the stove sits silently waiting for our return. :coolsmile:

Fixing the hearth is a priority and certainly not "false economy" as you state. Whether we get a new stove or keep our "1976 smoke dragon" we still want the safety that the new hearth will bring. We clean the flue twice a year and no visible creosote, burn all seasoned wood and the "1976 smoke dragon" heats almost the whole downstairs of the house (living space is 4200sq).

Anytime you want to drop off that EPA Cat stove on our doostep will be fine with us.... and be sure to tell us when so I can leave a six-pack for your kindness.

Thanks,
Jim & Kathy

 

[webbie]

To answer your questions.....

If I were simply improving this installation with a better hearth, I would not get inspection. If you do decide to get a permit and inspection, you may have to do a lot of additional work on the chimney connection, etc.

Hearth should be 18" in front of front doors and side loading door.

That stove radiates heavily downward, so I would suggest more than one layer of cement board (the more, the merrier!)....or, find some Micore, which has a vastly higher R-value and use that, and then 2 layers of cement board. Another option might be to make (or find from someone) the bottom heat shield for that unit. This is essentially a sheet of metal which hangs 1 1/2" or so off the bottom of the stove and is somewhat sized to the stove. That will do an amazing job of retarding downward radiation...and then you would prob be Ok with your suggested hearth construction.

Use thin set to put the tile on and regular grout.

As others are getting at, the release of smoke from a relatively small pipe into your large fireplace opening (if that is what is being done) is not up to code for even 20 years ago, let alone now. If nothing else, hopefully it has pipe inside the fireplace which carries the smoke in and turns upward toward the damper.

If you do get flush with some cash, and want to bring it closer up to modern codes, come back and see us!

 

[JimWalshin845]

To answer your questions.....

If I were simply improving this installation with a better hearth, I would not get inspection. If you do decide to get a permit and inspection, you may have to do a lot of additional work on the chimney connection, etc.

Hearth should be 18" in front of front doors and side loading door.!

Yes, that is what I have heard on some groups, that they can get real picky when doing anything with a stove. We have researched the NFP and local codes and will be sure to abide by them.

That stove radiates heavily downward, so I would suggest more than one layer of cement board (the more, the merrier!)....or, find some Micore, which has a vastly higher R-value and use that, and then 2 layers of cement board. Another option might be to make (or find from someone) the bottom heat shield for that unit. This is essentially a sheet of metal which hangs 1 1/2" or so off the bottom of the stove and is somewhat sized to the stove. That will do an amazing job of retarding downward radiation...and then you would prob be Ok with your suggested hearth construction.

Good advice and already considered fabricating a heat shield when we move the stove for the new hearth. You are very correct as per downward radiation, with no firebrick on the bottom of the stove it has dried out the grout and tile adhesive.

The only concern I have is that it will promote more heat at the bottom of the stove. I was thinking about splitting the difference (3 1/2") since the bottom of the stove is about 7" from the floor. Do you think that may be a better solution?

Use thin set to put the tile on and regular grout.

Well I guess the latex additives that are used in most grouts these days will add or keep better flexibility. I probably won't be around in 30 years but I hate to leave bad legacies or redo a job because of nickle and dimes... been there ... done that!

As others are getting at, the release of smoke from a relatively small pipe into your large fireplace opening (if that is what is being done) is not up to code for even 20 years ago, let alone now. If nothing else, hopefully it has pipe inside the fireplace which carries the smoke in and turns upward toward the damper. !

I guess I didn't make it clear. The upper part inside the fireplace, where the fireplace damper is suppose to be, is sealed off with a heavy metal plate, bolted and glued and the elbow to the stove pipe is welded to that plate. I believe that meets code since gases do not emit into the the fireplace firebox.

If you do get flush with some cash, and want to bring it closer up to modern codes, come back and see us!

Heck... if I got that flush with cash I'd burn oil all year. But seriously, this group has oodles of advice and we enjoy getting the exercise in and keeping the oil bills down to a minimum.

Thanks for the great advice. The only thing left to do before a Home Depot/Lowes run is to calculate the R-values for the floor install to be sure it meets code.

-Jim & Kathy-

 

[DriftWood]

author="Jim Walsh" date="1194391948 Anytime you want to drop off that EPA Cat stove on our doostep will be fine with us....

Last spring Lowe's had nice new ones on sale for $350.00 on clearance, but you were in the Sunshine State. You cruise you loose.

 

[JimWalshin845]

Last spring Lowe's had nice new ones on sale for $350.00 on clearance, but you were in the Sunshine State. You cruise you loose.

Well I guess I lost out on this one too? But do you want to buy a discontinued model and is it EPA II? Will it last over 30 years like our's has and still look and work G R E A T?

If I was about to open up my purse strings I would look towards a top end stove, not a bottom of the line stove put out by a reputable company.

TexasAgs Posted: 16 January 2007 02:32 AM
Brand new Century Hearth 2,000 Sq Ft Wood Stove: model FW300010 from Vermont Castings for $215.00 with the optional blower from Lowes (last one) Made in the USA (so they say)

I bought this stove today.
I have not yet decided to use it at my house, but at that price I did not want to pass it up. My brother told me he would buy it from me for his deer cabin if I decide to go in a different route.

Leaning towards using it, but first I wanted to see if anyone else has used this stove....

Looking for information , Good, Bad, Ugly, and any install tips before I get started… something I can change at this point BEFORE I get started

I did not see any reviews in the archives so don’t be shy…

I don't think Lowes carries PARLOR Sized stoves.... maybe sized to heat your size home... but certainly not ours. Are you comparing Caddilacs to Pintos?

-Jim & Kathy-

Ours (paid for and came with the home and works great): :coolgrin:
60,000 BTU/Hr
24" Logs
65# Fuel Caoacity
Caste Iron
Loads Top or Side
Rear or Top Flue
Weight 354#s
Domestic HW (optional)
Outside Airduct (optional)

Lowes:
Customer Rating 3.9 out of 5 :coolmad:
Century Hearth
2,000 Sq. Ft. Wood Stove
Solid pedestal design with ash drawer
Brick lined fire box
Cast iron sunburst door with ceramic glass
17" x 9" wide glass viewing area
Burns up to 20" logs
Air wash system for cleaner glass
Both polished brass and nickel hardware kit included
EPA approved
5-year warranty

 

[MrGriz]

I wouldn't be thumping my chest too hard about that set up. For starters it is certainly not in safe burning condition at this time. Granted you are taking steps to remedy that and are looking into doing it right; definitely a step in the right direction.

As far as the car analogy is concerned, the Century may not be a Cadillac, but you are definitely not running in the luxury class at this point. Call it more of an LTD station wagon; big, boxy and it'll get the job done. It'll suck a ton of fuel and throw a bunch of crap out the tail pipe but you and the family will get to Disney. That Century will burn much cleaner and more efficiently than your Defiant. That particular stove may not be sized to heat your place, but there are many good, inexpensive choices out there.

If my intention were to heat full time with that set up, I would be pulling it out yesterday to replace it with a modern EPA stove. Now, on the other hand, if it were already there and with a little work could be made relatively safe to use and I was just burning here and there for supplimental heat on the shoulder seasons, I'd probably let it stand.

Welcome to hearth.com

 

[JimWalshin845]

If my intention were to heat full time with that set up, I would be pulling it out yesterday to replace it with a modern EPA stove. Now, on the other hand, if it were already there and with a little work could be made relatively safe to use and I was just burning here and there for supplimental heat on the shoulder seasons, I'd probably let it stand.

Welcome to hearth.com

Thanks for the warm welcome. And we winter in Florida from about Mid January to May/June so eco/nomically(sic) it doesn't make sense for us to upgrade. We have a great wood source (live in the forest pineys of NJ) and have 5-6 cords seasoned/split oak in the yard already.

Our objective is just to bring the hearth up to code which is definitely needed and that is why we posted on any recommendations.

Spending a minimum $1,000 for a new stove equals a ton of margaritas in Florida. :bug:

Again, thank you for the warm welcome,
Jim & Kathy

 

[webbie]

The original VC bottom heat shield was always fairly close to the stove bottom, probably because of looks (and tested that way also), but in terms of heat reduction it would not make a big diff.

The R-value is in the AIR, not in the sheet metal. So just providing a break is the idea. The original hung on clips about one inch+ below the leg bottoms - it was a clip that attached to the leg mounting bolt (4).

As far as the latex additive, that should not be a problem. If you use a heat shield, it should make the hearth mostly for spark and log rolling protection anyway - in other words, it is not likely to hit over 200 degrees or so on top.....and probably not even that.

The installation you mention was certainly much more than required at the time the unit was installed - VC would have probably given you an award for that one! Current code would call for extending it through the smoke chamber to the first flue tile...

Just FYI, given your burning habits and lack of lots of creosote, I would guess you are burning at over 50% efficiency. Certainly a newer stove might beat that, but it certainly not like comparing a stove to an open fireplace. You are like the person with that old 59 Impala with the fins. Eats some gas, puts out some smoke, but all paid for.

Hey, where in the Pines? We are from Medford and owned the stove shop there for 20+ years!

 

[JimWalshin845]

Hey, where in the Pines? We are from Medford and owned the stove shop there for 20+ years!

Hello Craig,

We live in Green Bank between Egg Harbor City and Hammonton in Wharton State Forest.

And yes, read/perused your bio and photos of your shop in Medford and mfg' facility....small world.

Thanks and the best from the Piney Devils,
Jim & Kathy

 

[webbie]

Beautiful place! A well kept secret. I had thought of retiring near there also. But after 25 years in the area, a change of pace (to new england) is nice. Ice here on the pumpkin this evening (or at least on the hot tub).

 

[MrGriz]

[quote author="Jim Walsh" date="1194420702Thanks for the warm welcome. And we winter in Florida from about Mid January to May/June so eco/nomically(sic) it doesn't make sense for us to upgrade. We have a great wood source (live in the forest pineys of NJ) and have 5-6 cords seasoned/split oak in the yard already.

Our objective is just to bring the hearth up to code which is definitely needed and that is why we posted on any recommendations.

Spending a minimum $1,000 for a new stove equals a ton of margaritas in Florida. :bug:

Again, thank you for the warm welcome,
Jim & Kathy[/quote]

I'll take two, on the rocks with salt!

Like I said, in that situation, with that wood supply; make her safe and burn. Just be sure to extend the hearth a minumum of 18" from the loading door; I would go farther, especially with the carpet right there. Set your tile in a bed of mortar on Durock and use a standard, sanded grout for the joints. A laytex additive in grout shouldn't hurt anything. I would definitely seal the surface as well, especially if you are using a natural stone.

 

[Gooserider]

For the hearth, assuming you get the heat shield so that you only need to worry about having a non-combustible surface,

1. Use 1/2" Durock, not 1/4" - the half inch is rated for hearth protectors, the quarter isn't... Durock is also the only brand of cement board I've found that is actually reccomended by the manufacturer explicitly for use in making floor protectors.

2. Make sure your floor is stiff enough - if you have to much flex, the tile job WILL fail sooner or later - tile doesn't bend, if the floor does, something is going to give.

3. The Durock submittal sheet calls for use of latex fortified thinset - I used Flexbond, which worked well for me.

4. I think it is good practice to put a layer of sheet metal (aluminum roof flashing works, or sheet steel 26g or better) between the subfloor and the Durock. This acts as a heat spreader to dissipate any possible hot spots, but isn't code required.

5. Put a layer of thinset between the subfloor and the Durock, and then screw the Durock down using plenty of cement board screws, about every 8" is the spec.

6. Use thinset to put down your tiles or stone, a 1/4" notch trowel is reccomended.

7. A "sanded" grout is reccomended if your joint spacing is over 1/4", I believe you should use a latex fortified grout as well.

Far as I know, if you are just improving the hearth, and not changing out the stove, you don't need to pull permits or get inspected.

Hope this helps,

Gooserider

 

[JimWalshin845]

For the hearth, assuming you get the heat shield so that you only need to worry about having a non-combustible surface,

1. Use 1/2" Durock, not 1/4" .........
{Snip/}
Hope this helps,

Gooserider

Super advice Goose and thank you so much.

USG has a lot of info and the submitted data as a heat shield. Here are the two links for others.

(broken link removed to https://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/Installation_and_Appl_Guides/DrckCement_Board-Installation_Guide.pdf)

(broken link removed to https://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/Prod_Data_and_Submittal_Sheets/CB198_Durock_Cement_Bd.pdf)

Thanks to all who contributed,
Jim & Kathy