Repair or Replace?

[suberix]

Hello all,

What a relief to find this forum! I've been reading several very useful threads to prepare for my upcoming fireplace renovation, but I'm still a little torn as to what to do, so I've decided to be the thousandeth guy to start a thread seeking advice, and I thank you in advance for your time and answers.
The breakdown: I bought my first house last year, definitely a fixer-upper, and was partially sold on it due to the fireplace occupying a central place in the living room. I've lived in Florida for a long time, so my main concern was staying cool; as a result I know almost nothing about fireplaces and associated systems.
The current setup is a traditional fireplace. The chimney is in the house and exits through the middle of the roof. On the floor of the fireplace is an opening - a hole, really - which leads to a small "tunnel", which exits through a small steel trapdoor in the garage. Last winter I had the chimney cleaned and started building fires - it became sort of a tradition. I'd come home from work, kiss the wife and the newborn baby, and build a fire. Right away I noticed a few problems:

- Hot ashes were falling in the "tunnel" and heating the trapdoor in the garage, to the point where I couldn't touch it. I also noticed a rather alarming smell of smoke in the garage several times. The wall above the trapdoor got extremely hot. I bought a big metal tray that I put under the iron bars that hold the wood up, and the problem stopped.
- The fiberglass lining on the inside of the glass doors started falling out (I initiallly thought it was asbestos, but it's not)
- Towards the end of the season, I started noticing the masonry wasn't in great shape.
- The flue wasn't operating properly: I could not close it completely, and it wouldn't stay completely open.
- I live in the Midwest now, and it's cold here. I would typically build a fire at six PM and watch it burn until about ten or eleven (quite literally watch it - we chose not to have televison and look at the flames instead). I would always make sure it was completely out before I went to bed. The only problem is that I went through a lot of wood... a lot. Like twenty logs a night. Granted, I built some big fires, but the wood (which I had delivered to my garage) probably cost me about 1300 dollars over the winter.
Also, it wasn't doing a great job heating the room. Fifteen feet away from the fireplace and you couldn't feel its warmth.

So - I saved up all summer, thinking this winter (with another baby on the way) I'd get a nicer setup.
Started calling around, and was first advised to get a gas insert. Quoted at about 6500 (including labor) the salesman, from a very reputable company, told me it was the way to go. Cleaner, safer, easier, more efficient, etc.
I thought, that's not a bad idea, even though the charm of building a fire is gone.
Quote number two was for a Regency ci2600. Installed (without blower) was 6500. I read up about it on this forum, and decided it almost sounded like too big of a headache. I was concerned about reports on the glass getting dark, the limited warranty, the need to change the cat every six years, etc.
Then I got a quote to rebuild the masonry in the fireplace, fix the flue, and replace the lining and front windows. It was about 5000. I have to say I'm tempted to go that route, even though the savings will be negated by another year of burning a lot of wood.
Please let me know what you think - should I definitely get a wood insert? Rebuild the fireplace? Or just go with gas?
Thanks in advance for all your help!

 

[webby3650]

You aren’t going to be able to heat your home with an open fireplace. It’s not possible. Since you like the open fire feel, I’d look into a large non-cat insert. The glass stays really clean with dry wood, most have an optional screen so you can burn with the door open when you want to. You can actually put that wood to use, heat your bone rather than the atmosphere...

Travis Industries and Hearthstone both have some inserts with huge glass, look into those for a start.

 

[bholler]

Hello all,

What a relief to find this forum! I've been reading several very useful threads to prepare for my upcoming fireplace renovation, but I'm still a little torn as to what to do, so I've decided to be the thousandeth guy to start a thread seeking advice, and I thank you in advance for your time and answers.
The breakdown: I bought my first house last year, definitely a fixer-upper, and was partially sold on it due to the fireplace occupying a central place in the living room. I've lived in Florida for a long time, so my main concern was staying cool; as a result I know almost nothing about fireplaces and associated systems.
The current setup is a traditional fireplace. The chimney is in the house and exits through the middle of the roof. On the floor of the fireplace is an opening - a hole, really - which leads to a small "tunnel", which exits through a small steel trapdoor in the garage. Last winter I had the chimney cleaned and started building fires - it became sort of a tradition. I'd come home from work, kiss the wife and the newborn baby, and build a fire. Right away I noticed a few problems:

- Hot ashes were falling in the "tunnel" and heating the trapdoor in the garage, to the point where I couldn't touch it. I also noticed a rather alarming smell of smoke in the garage several times. The wall above the trapdoor got extremely hot. I bought a big metal tray that I put under the iron bars that hold the wood up, and the problem stopped.
- The fiberglass lining on the inside of the glass doors started falling out (I initiallly thought it was asbestos, but it's not)
- Towards the end of the season, I started noticing the masonry wasn't in great shape.
- The flue wasn't operating properly: I could not close it completely, and it wouldn't stay completely open.
- I live in the Midwest now, and it's cold here. I would typically build a fire at six PM and watch it burn until about ten or eleven (quite literally watch it - we chose not to have televison and look at the flames instead). I would always make sure it was completely out before I went to bed. The only problem is that I went through a lot of wood... a lot. Like twenty logs a night. Granted, I built some big fires, but the wood (which I had delivered to my garage) probably cost me about 1300 dollars over the winter.
Also, it wasn't doing a great job heating the room. Fifteen feet away from the fireplace and you couldn't feel its warmth.

So - I saved up all summer, thinking this winter (with another baby on the way) I'd get a nicer setup.
Started calling around, and was first advised to get a gas insert. Quoted at about 6500 (including labor) the salesman, from a very reputable company, told me it was the way to go. Cleaner, safer, easier, more efficient, etc.
I thought, that's not a bad idea, even though the charm of building a fire is gone.
Quote number two was for a Regency ci2600. Installed (without blower) was 6500. I read up about it on this forum, and decided it almost sounded like too big of a headache. I was concerned about reports on the glass getting dark, the limited warranty, the need to change the cat every six years, etc.
Then I got a quote to rebuild the masonry in the fireplace, fix the flue, and replace the lining and front windows. It was about 5000. I have to say I'm tempted to go that route, even though the savings will be negated by another year of burning a lot of wood.
Please let me know what you think - should I definitely get a wood insert? Rebuild the fireplace? Or just go with gas?
Thanks in advance for all your help!

As said above you arent going to heat with an open fireplace and it will go through a ton of wood. A gas insert will work fine if that is the route you want to go. But that price seems high. The 2600 is a good insert that had some issues to start but they were addressed. But you are right being a cat (actually hybrid) stove it will tend to have dirtier glass than non cats. There are many other inserts out there to choose from shop around a bit if the glass is an issue.

 

[kennyp2339]

Beautiful fireplace, a nice insert with a liner, top cap and block off plate will do the job, especially being that the fireplace in centrally located within the building envelope.
Just a couple things, if your masonry isn't up to par please consider installing a insulated liner, this will keep the flue gases warmer improving draft, also provide additional protection should you have a chimney fire, A good heavy wall liner that is wrapped is the way to go, it may require some cutting around the damper if you have one, not a big deal to do. A top cap will automatically come with the liner kit, a block off plate which gets mounted just above the lintel area will need to be fabricated (26g sheet metal is fine) this keeps the heat that the insert generated from also going up the chimney and being absorbed into the clay / brick work (more efficiency)
There are many great inserts out there, the ones that offer a cat do burn longer and offer a steadier / more gentle heat output, the ones that have the secondary reburn tubes are also awesome, they are known for there simplicity but they also have a large heat curve (aka chasing the dragon) generally speaking a reburn stove that 2.5cu will give you 6-8hrs burn time, a cat insert will give you 10-16hr burn times (depending on air setting)
Either way you can go wrong. Don't be so quick to cover the ash tray that leads into the garage, depending on code you can use that air as make up air (oak) and not take conditioned air from the living space to essentially burn.
Dry wood is key to everything, moisture content on a freshly split piece of wood should measure <20% using a moisture meter.

 

[bholler]

Beautiful fireplace, a nice insert with a liner, top cap and block off plate will do the job, especially being that the fireplace in centrally located within the building envelope.
Just a couple things, if your masonry isn't up to par please consider installing a insulated liner, this will keep the flue gases warmer improving draft, also provide additional protection should you have a chimney fire, A good heavy wall liner that is wrapped is the way to go, it may require some cutting around the damper if you have one, not a big deal to do. A top cap will automatically come with the liner kit, a block off plate which gets mounted just above the lintel area will need to be fabricated (26g sheet metal is fine) this keeps the heat that the insert generated from also going up the chimney and being absorbed into the clay / brick work (more efficiency)
There are many great inserts out there, the ones that offer a cat do burn longer and offer a steadier / more gentle heat output, the ones that have the secondary reburn tubes are also awesome, they are known for there simplicity but they also have a large heat curve (aka chasing the dragon) generally speaking a reburn stove that 2.5cu will give you 6-8hrs burn time, a cat insert will give you 10-16hr burn times (depending on air setting)
Either way you can go wrong. Don't be so quick to cover the ash tray that leads into the garage, depending on code you can use that air as make up air (oak) and not take conditioned air from the living space to essentially burn.
Dry wood is key to everything, moisture content on a freshly split piece of wood should measure <20% using a moisture meter.

You cant pull combustion air from a garage

 

[webby3650]

It also sounds like your ash dump door is missing. The coals should only fall down into there once the door is opened.

 

[suberix]

You aren’t going to be able to heat your home with an open fireplace. It’s not possible. Since you like the open fire feel, I’d look into a large non-cat insert. The glass stays really clean with dry wood, most have an optional screen so you can burn with the door open when you want to. You can actually put that wood to use, heat your bone rather than the atmosphere...

Travis Industries and Hearthstone both have some inserts with huge glass, look into those for a start.

Thanks very much for the reply. I think that's a great idea.
It's not my intention to heat the whole house with the fire - I just had a new furnace installed - it's about gathering around something pretty that also emits heat!

 

[suberix]

As said above you arent going to heat with an open fireplace and it will go through a ton of wood. A gas insert will work fine if that is the route you want to go. But that price seems high. The 2600 is a good insert that had some issues to start but they were addressed. But you are right being a cat (actually hybrid) stove it will tend to have dirtier glass than non cats. There are many other inserts out there to choose from shop around a bit if the glass is an issue.

Thanks.
What is the biggest advantage of a cat? Seems like a lot of trouble for not that much return.

 

[suberix]

Beautiful fireplace, a nice insert with a liner, top cap and block off plate will do the job, especially being that the fireplace in centrally located within the building envelope.
Just a couple things, if your masonry isn't up to par please consider installing a insulated liner, this will keep the flue gases warmer improving draft, also provide additional protection should you have a chimney fire, A good heavy wall liner that is wrapped is the way to go, it may require some cutting around the damper if you have one, not a big deal to do. A top cap will automatically come with the liner kit, a block off plate which gets mounted just above the lintel area will need to be fabricated (26g sheet metal is fine) this keeps the heat that the insert generated from also going up the chimney and being absorbed into the clay / brick work (more efficiency)
There are many great inserts out there, the ones that offer a cat do burn longer and offer a steadier / more gentle heat output, the ones that have the secondary reburn tubes are also awesome, they are known for there simplicity but they also have a large heat curve (aka chasing the dragon) generally speaking a reburn stove that 2.5cu will give you 6-8hrs burn time, a cat insert will give you 10-16hr burn times (depending on air setting)
Either way you can go wrong. Don't be so quick to cover the ash tray that leads into the garage, depending on code you can use that air as make up air (oak) and not take conditioned air from the living space to essentially burn.
Dry wood is key to everything, moisture content on a freshly split piece of wood should measure <20% using a moisture meter.

Thanks.
The new liner is part of the labor quotes that I received.
At this point I've pretty much decided I don't want gas, the question is which type of insert best fits my needs.
Regarding the wood, I buy the best stuff (I think) - precut and delivered to my garage, always dry.

 

[suberix]

It also sounds like your ash dump door is missing. The coals should only fall down into there once the door is opened.

It's just a hole - and it looks like nothing other than a hole ever was there.
I can take a picture tonight when I get home.

 

[webby3650]

It's just a hole - and it looks like nothing other than a hole ever was there.
I can take a picture tonight when I get home.

Correct. When the Fireplace is built a brick is left out intentionally. Then a cover with a lid is purchased to take the place of the brick. Every Hearth store should have them in stock.

 

[bholler]

Thanks.
What is the biggest advantage of a cat? Seems like a lot of trouble for not that much return.

Longer burn times and more even heat output.

 

[MAD MARK]

I'm also revisiting this idea. Even though mine doesn't need repaired, I'm thinking of replacing.

Options.
1. Stick with it. No cost. Loss of heat. Total atmosphere. Burn only above 30°F or so.

2. Replace with insert. $$$. Better heat. Less atmosphere. Burn whenever.

3. Ponder it for hours on end sitting in front wood stove in garage. $$$ for beers. Its warm there. Total atmosphere. Burn whenever.

3 has won every time so far since last February.

 

[webby3650]

Well, it’s a no brained for me. Rather than waste all that expensive wood up the flue, I heat my home and enjoy an even more beautiful fire view.