Question About Do It Yourself Sweeping Methods

[David Elliot]

Hi, All-

Hope I've put this in the right forum. I figure I would get ridiculed and
booed out of the room If I stuck this in the main wood stoves forum.
Please forgive me...

I've actually been on Hearth.com since 2007, when I got my first stove.
The new 2-step verification has locked me out because the site sends
the 'secret code' to an email address and domain I no longer own or
have access to. I did email the site owners about this problem. Asked
for them to please change my email address of record. So far, no reply...

My question is about what is is available for a flexible rod and
flexible brush type that fits the stainless flue liners seen used inside
12" square masonry tiles in brick chimneys. It will take a bit of explaining
as to why I want to do this. But let me start by saying that I have become
pretty familiar with all that goes along with wood burning. I don't fell
many trees, but I do personally process, transport, stack, and season
my own wood. I like the exercise.

I might add that this is a new stove installation, top exhaust, going
into a well built, infrequently used wood fireplace cavity. We knew
well the importance of using well seasoned wood in fireplace mode.
The chimney always drew well. Probably around 14-16ft of stack.
Two story house. Fireplace on 1st floor. So I have every reason to
believe the stainless liner is clean. But the chimney has not had any
sweeper attention for some years now.

I've kind of painted myself into a corner by neglecting to first have
the chimney swept last fall. But this project was a last minute thing.
Unexpected. Bottom line is I suspect I could possibly have some sort
of partial blockage. If so, this should relate strictly to insects. I can rule
out birds or other critters because the chimney cap is definitely intact.
I can also rule out creosote buildup, or even soot buildup. Flue liner
looks good, viewed from the bottom. But there is a catch. The
geometry of this chimney has the stainless liner taking a gentle bend
and coming in to the fireplace cavity at the top from one side, at a gentle
angle. So I can't get a boresight view up the full length of the liner.
Virtually no soot visible on the short stretch of exposed bricks. Not
a hint of creosote anywhere. Stove set up to discharge through a well
fitted and sealed steel blockoff plate. Uh, yes, I know- not to code.
OTOH I use just such a setup at a nearby location, and have done so
successfully for 17 years now. That other chimney doesn't even soot
very badly. Not a hint of creosote. I burn only well seasoned wood.
And I do have the brush and rods for that chimney... But it's stiff
handle sections, stiff steel bristles.

This would not be a very good time for sweeping from the outside.
We had some snow in our area. Still a bit on the hip roof over the
garage, which hasn't yet fully melted. Obviously could be dangerous.
Chimney extends up from that hip roof slightly higher than the main
roof. So it's maybe about 10ft of chimney sticking out. Gently sloping surface.
Not good... So I propose trying to sweep this thing from the bottom up.
Would need just the right combination of stiffness and flexibility in
the rod, due to that 1-2 ft offset bend. And to brush past the now
permanently jammed open fireplace damper door above. If there is
an insect nest, I figure most any brush might work to knock it down,
but I'm thinking soft bristles rather than stiff metal bristles. Is such a
combo available?

BTW this episode has been quite confusing, Chimney seemed to have
a fairly strong and cold downdraft, the entire time I had it open and
was working on it, Took the new stove out on the concrete porch
for a couple of successful seasoning fires, to burn off the paint and
oil stink. Drew well using only 3ft of 6in exhaust pipe and an elbow.
Exhaust became smokeless once a high enough temperature was hit.
So the stove burns and exhausts pretty well.

This is a US Stove 1269E. Non-cat EPA type. Tiny. Yeah, it's a cheapie.
Some owners have reported getting good, reliable use out of theirs.
This one will likely end up in cabin heater status. As I said, it was a
quick reaction scenario, an expediency... These stoves can puff out
smoke during reloads if not done in a particular way. Heated gasses
travel forward at the top, reburn, and then do an 180 degree turn,
flipping over and traveling back along the top of the heat baffle to exit
the top exhaust collar in back. This turn happens at the very front top
of the stove, near the door opening. Yikes!

Key point- the chimney seemed to draft normally. Cold downdraft.
I could feel a definite cold downdraft from the two places I might
expect that from, after hooking the stove up. Fortunately I used pretty
small amounts of fuel. No evidence it was going to draft in the least.
It just wanted to belch smoke from the two air inlets, or the open door.
Had I tried a 'properly sized' amount of fuel for first burn, I'd likely
have filled the entire house with smoke. My first thought was maybe I
would need to blast heated air from a heat gun past the front top of
the baffle, to get the draft direction reversed. Using a custom built
cowling adapter from the heat gun, with a wide, skinny, rectangular
nozzle/90 degree elbow to fit up over the baffle... But wait, that ain't right.

Further confounding matters is that there seems to be less of that cold
downdraft coming down through the stove now. Whaaa? So obviously
my thinking is now mainly focused on a possible liner blockage?
Possibly an insect nest up in that liner? That can shift? I've done nothing
in the least that should have jostled that liner in any way... And I am
certain I engineered a very strong and reliable damper stay out of 3/4"
thick wall copper pipe. Replaces the ratcheting fireplace damper handle
assembly. Photo below...

If you have read this far, thank you so much. You may have laughed-
or winced- at some of this. Open to suggestions, even those types
'you may not want to hear'. Hope someone can help me here. It's
probably nothing that can't be overcome. I don't particularly seek
criticism or ridicule, however. Perhaps in that case, you might just
shake your head and scroll on... As it is, I have done enough beating
on myself, so please don't pile on...

Thanks,

David
Hearth.com member since 2007

 

[bholler]

Hi, All-

Hope I've put this in the right forum. I figure I would get ridiculed and
booed out of the room If I stuck this in the main wood stoves forum.
Please forgive me...

I've actually been on Hearth.com since 2007, when I got my first stove.
The new 2-step verification has locked me out because the site sends
the 'secret code' to an email address and domain I no longer own or
have access to. I did email the site owners about this problem. Asked
for them to please change my email address of record. So far, no reply...

My question is about what is is available for a flexible rod and
flexible brush type that fits the stainless flue liners seen used inside
12" square masonry tiles in brick chimneys. It will take a bit of explaining
as to why I want to do this. But let me start by saying that I have become
pretty familiar with all that goes along with wood burning. I don't fell
many trees, but I do personally process, transport, stack, and season
my own wood. I like the exercise.

I might add that this is a new stove installation, top exhaust, going
into a well built, infrequently used wood fireplace cavity. We knew
well the importance of using well seasoned wood in fireplace mode.
The chimney always drew well. Probably around 14-16ft of stack.
Two story house. Fireplace on 1st floor. So I have every reason to
believe the stainless liner is clean. But the chimney has not had any
sweeper attention for some years now.

I've kind of painted myself into a corner by neglecting to first have
the chimney swept last fall. But this project was a last minute thing.
Unexpected. Bottom line is I suspect I could possibly have some sort
of partial blockage. If so, this should relate strictly to insects. I can rule
out birds or other critters because the chimney cap is definitely intact.
I can also rule out creosote buildup, or even soot buildup. Flue liner
looks good, viewed from the bottom. But there is a catch. The
geometry of this chimney has the stainless liner taking a gentle bend
and coming in to the fireplace cavity at the top from one side, at a gentle
angle. So I can't get a boresight view up the full length of the liner.
Virtually no soot visible on the short stretch of exposed bricks. Not
a hint of creosote anywhere. Stove set up to discharge through a well
fitted and sealed steel blockoff plate. Uh, yes, I know- not to code.
OTOH I use just such a setup at a nearby location, and have done so
successfully for 17 years now. That other chimney doesn't even soot
very badly. Not a hint of creosote. I burn only well seasoned wood.
And I do have the brush and rods for that chimney... But it's stiff
handle sections, stiff steel bristles.

This would not be a very good time for sweeping from the outside.
We had some snow in our area. Still a bit on the hip roof over the
garage, which hasn't yet fully melted. Obviously could be dangerous.
Chimney extends up from that hip roof slightly higher than the main
roof. So it's maybe about 10ft of chimney sticking out. Gently sloping surface.
Not good... So I propose trying to sweep this thing from the bottom up.
Would need just the right combination of stiffness and flexibility in
the rod, due to that 1-2 ft offset bend. And to brush past the now
permanently jammed open fireplace damper door above. If there is
an insect nest, I figure most any brush might work to knock it down,
but I'm thinking soft bristles rather than stiff metal bristles. Is such a
combo available?

BTW this episode has been quite confusing, Chimney seemed to have
a fairly strong and cold downdraft, the entire time I had it open and
was working on it, Took the new stove out on the concrete porch
for a couple of successful seasoning fires, to burn off the paint and
oil stink. Drew well using only 3ft of 6in exhaust pipe and an elbow.
Exhaust became smokeless once a high enough temperature was hit.
So the stove burns and exhausts pretty well.

This is a US Stove 1269E. Non-cat EPA type. Tiny. Yeah, it's a cheapie.
Some owners have reported getting good, reliable use out of theirs.
This one will likely end up in cabin heater status. As I said, it was a
quick reaction scenario, an expediency... These stoves can puff out
smoke during reloads if not done in a particular way. Heated gasses
travel forward at the top, reburn, and then do an 180 degree turn,
flipping over and traveling back along the top of the heat baffle to exit
the top exhaust collar in back. This turn happens at the very front top
of the stove, near the door opening. Yikes!

Key point- the chimney seemed to draft normally. Cold downdraft.
I could feel a definite cold downdraft from the two places I might
expect that from, after hooking the stove up. Fortunately I used pretty
small amounts of fuel. No evidence it was going to draft in the least.
It just wanted to belch smoke from the two air inlets, or the open door.
Had I tried a 'properly sized' amount of fuel for first burn, I'd likely
have filled the entire house with smoke. My first thought was maybe I
would need to blast heated air from a heat gun past the front top of
the baffle, to get the draft direction reversed. Using a custom built
cowling adapter from the heat gun, with a wide, skinny, rectangular
nozzle/90 degree elbow to fit up over the baffle... But wait, that ain't right.

Further confounding matters is that there seems to be less of that cold
downdraft coming down through the stove now. Whaaa? So obviously
my thinking is now mainly focused on a possible liner blockage?
Possibly an insect nest up in that liner? That can shift? I've done nothing
in the least that should have jostled that liner in any way... And I am
certain I engineered a very strong and reliable damper stay out of 3/4"
thick wall copper pipe. Replaces the ratcheting fireplace damper handle
assembly. Photo below...

View attachment 335117

If you have read this far, thank you so much. You may have laughed-
or winced- at some of this. Open to suggestions, even those types
'you may not want to hear'. Hope someone can help me here. It's
probably nothing that can't be overcome. I don't particularly seek
criticism or ridicule, however. Perhaps in that case, you might just
shake your head and scroll on... As it is, I have done enough beating
on myself, so please don't pile on...

Thanks,

David
Hearth.com member since 2007

I am very confused. Are you saying you have a direct connect into a 12x12 fireplace liner and want to know how to clean it?

 

[David Elliot]

I am very confused. Are you saying you have a direct connect into a 12x12 fireplace liner and want to know how to clean it?

I'm thinking I may have a blockage in a stainless steel flue liner that lives inside of a column
of 12 x 12 inch flue tiles inside a brick chimney. So it would be a round brush, maybe 10 inch diameter.
What ever the inside dimension of the stainless liner is.

 

[David Elliot]

I am very confused. Are you saying you have a direct connect into a 12x12 fireplace liner and want to know how to clean it?

*Direct* connection to that stainless liner? Uh, no. Going through a blockoff plate with 6in pipe,
emptying into the brick top part of the fireplace above, which contains the *fireplace damper.* Then
into the stainless liner. Which makes a bend as it comes down into the fireplace. There is no stove
damper. It's designed to be a fixed burn rate appliance.

Sorry, I know- I gave a ton of information, sort of scattered. It isn't too easy to understand the
situation I'm trying to describe. Or why I would try to do it that way.

Bottom line is I have a newly installed stove that won't draft and belches smoke. And I think the
problem is probably about the chimney. So for now it sits useless.

 

[bholler]

*Direct* connection to that stainless liner? Uh, no. Going through a blockoff plate with 6in pipe,
emptying into the brick top part of the fireplace above, which contains the *fireplace damper.* Then
into the stainless liner. Which makes a bend as it comes down into the fireplace. There is no stove
damper. It's designed to be a fixed burn rate appliance.

Sorry, I know- I gave a ton of information, sort of scattered. It isn't too easy to understand the
situation I'm trying to describe. Or why I would try to do it that way.

Bottom line is I have a newly installed stove that won't draft and belches smoke. And I think the
problem is probably about the chimney. So for now it sits useless.

Your type of install is called a direct connect. And they are absolutely horrible for down drafts and establishing draft which is why they are not recommended at all. The only way to properly clean one is pull out the connector pipe and the blockoff plate and clean the fireplace then reinstall it.

 

[David Elliot]

Your type of install is called a direct connect. And they are absolutely horrible for down drafts and establishing draft which is why they are not recommended at all. The only way to properly clean one is pull out the connector pipe and the blockoff plate and clean the fireplace then reinstall it.

I hear ya. But I really doubt there is much to clean. Unless there is an actual blockage somewhere in the liner. Bees nest? Hornet's nest? Big ones... This fireplace was *rarely used* (as a fireplace). Always burned well seasoned wood. And when we used to light a fire, we would first light a paper cone and hold it up in the top of the fireplace. Almost every single time, the smoke from the paper went up the chimney. And that was our signal that it would be OK to light a fireplace fire. So, in other words, this chimney always drew well, despite feeling quite a cool downdraft

 

[bholler]

I hear ya. But I really doubt there is much to clean. Unless there is an actual blockage somewhere in the liner. This fireplace was *rarely used*. Always burned well seasoned wood, And when we used to light a fire, we would first light a paper cone and hold it up in the top of the fireplace. Almost every single time, the smoke from the paper went up the chimney. And that was our signal that it would be OK to light a fireplace fire. So, in other words, this chimney always drew well, despite feeling quite a cool downdraft

Ok but you asked how to clean it. I told you how they need to be cleaned

 

[David Elliot]

I hear ya. But I really doubt there is much to clean. Unless there is an actual blockage somewhere in the liner. Bees nest? Hornet's nest? Big ones... This fireplace was *rarely used* (as a fireplace). Always burned well seasoned wood. And when we used to light a fire, we would first light a paper cone and hold it up in the top of the fireplace. Almost every single time, the smoke from the paper went up the chimney. And that was our signal that it would be OK to light a fireplace fire. So, in other words, this chimney always drew well, despite feeling quite a cool downdraft

BTW if I try to clean this from inside, from the bottom up, of course I am going to have to remove the blockoff plate
and the shorty connector 6" pipe to get a brush up into that liner.

 

[David Elliot]

Ok but you asked how to clean it. I told you how they need to be cleaned

Yes, thanks so much for the advice. Just wondering if you know- do they make a cleaning
set that includes a flexible handle and flexible brush? Stiff fiberglass rods ain't going to work here.
Same goes for a stiff brush with steel bristles. Will not be able to get round the bend in the bottom
end of the flue liner.

If you know what a bottle brush looks like. It is pretty stiff *but* can be made to flex and
go around corners. Failing that, the only option becomes to wait for the right weather and clean it
in the usual top down way.

I can't really say I know there is a blockage, not for sure. But it is sorta looking that way.

 

[bholler]

Yes, thanks so much for the advice. Just wondering if you know- do they make a cleaning
set that includes a flexible handle and flexible brush? Stiff fiberglass rods ain't going to work here.
Same goes for a stiff brush with steel bristles. Will not be able to get round the bend in the bottom
end of the flue liner.

If you know what a bottle brush looks like. It is pretty stiff *but* can be made to flex and
go around corners. Failing that, the only option becomes to wait for the right weather and clean it
in the usual top down way.

I can't really say I know there is a blockage, not for sure. But it is sorta looking that way.

Get a rotary cleaner. You should never use regular steel brushes in a stainless liner.

 

[David Elliot]

Get a rotary cleaner. You should never use regular steel brushes in a stainless liner.

Wow, great! Now that is a comment that may get me 'unstuck' I will look into
types of rotary cleaners. Good hint. I guess I would only use a steel bristle
brush anyway if I was cleaning masonry flue tiles. That's my situation with
my other stove location. 12 x 12 masonry flue tiles, and I have fiberglass
stiff handle sections and a steel bristle brush. Thing fits in those tiles
perfectly.

That is a slam dunk, BTW. Single story house with a shallow roof pitch.
This one is a bit steeper pitch. The chimney is offset from the roof peak.
Need one of those uneven leg ladders, I guess. I'll let a pro sweeper
handle this one, if it comes to that.

 

[bholler]

Wow, great! Now that is a comment that may get me 'unstuck' I will look into
types of rotary cleaners. Good hint. I guess I would only use a steel bristle
brush anyway if I was cleaning masonry flue tiles. That's my situation with
my other stove location. 12 x 12 masonry flue tiles, and I have fiberglass
stiff handle sections and a steel bristle brush. Thing fits in those tiles
perfectly.

That is a slam dunk, BTW. Single story house with a shallow roof pitch.
This one is a bit steeper pitch. The chimney is offset from the roof peak.
Need one of those uneven leg ladders, I guess. I'll let a pro sweeper
handle this one, if it comes to that.

A pro sweep very likely will not work on it. And if they do it will be expensive. Why dont you just install it properly

 

[David Elliot]

A proper sweep very likely will not work on it. And if they do it will be expensive. Why dont you just install it properly

It's a long story. Fair question though. I am going to set that aside for now. Quite a tricky
and uncomfortable area for me. Hope you will understand.

In my first post above, I did mention that I have a similar setup at a different location
nearby. It has worked very well for 17 years now. Minimal sooting, never forms creosote.

 

[stoveliker]

If you are able the find a piece connecting the steel liner to the stove exhaust, you could do it without removing the stove from inside there. Remove the baffle and go up with the soot eater.

 

[David Elliot]

If you are able the find a piece connecting the steel liner to the stove exhaust, you could do it without removing the stove from inside there. Remove the baffle and go up with the soot eater.

Good suggestion. Well, fortunately, this is a tiny stove. Only 1.1 cu ft capacity in the firebox. I can work
around it without removing it. Just as well, as I am not strong enough for this stuff any more.
A neighbor and his son were able to easily lift this for me (only 130 pounds, stripped down). The short exhaust
pipe just slips in and out, easily, both ends. The blockoff plate has to come out, of course. But then I think i can
get a brush up there and started into the liner.

I'm picturing what you are suggesting. Not possible or necessary to come up through the stove. This is
because of the heat resistant baffle in the top of the stove. Runs nearly the full length, front to back.
But I think I still have enough room to work around the stove with it still sitting in place. If necessary I'm
sure the guys would help me yet again. That baffle is extremely difficult to remove and replace. After
reading all the gripes online, I would not dare attempt that. The other thing is that any adapter would
have to be flattened where it passes the blocked open fireplace damper. Then a rotary brush couldn't
get through. I think I need about a 10in round nylon bristle brush, whatever fits that stainless flue. And I have
to get it squeezed past the damper plate and start it directly at the lowest end of the liner. And then get
it to go around a bend at the very start... It looks to be a gentle bend, though. Certainly not 90 degrees.
At the very bottom it is already angling up, maybe 30 to 45 degrees.

If I had access to a borescope, I bet I could see around that angle and straight up the liner. Then I would
*know* whether or not I really have an obstruction. If I do, it has to be an insect nest IMO. And a pretty fat
one, too. This is an ~10in dia. stainless liner here. Whatever fits 12 x 12. And there are other possible
explanations that do not involve an obstruction. But who knows, I could have 5-10 pounds of honey
up near the top of that tube- LOL!

 

[David Elliot]

Update: Today I took loose the exhaust pipe and removed the flue collar so I had access to the
bottom of the pipe. Rolled a paper torch and lit it, held it up just inside the bottom of the pipe.
Lo and behold, it drew the smoke up, and right smartly, at that. So this points strongly away
from my problem being liner blockage. I can feel a slight downdraft, BTW, but not a super
aggressive draft. Would seem to prove if there is any blockage, at least it is very unlikely it is
a complete blockage. At the moment, I am thinking "no blockage at all".

I do recall from previous posts in the forums that those end-of-house chimneys are notorious
for being colder than a central chimney (what I have at my other location). I heard it can take
days to really get them fully warmed up. So now things point more towards this being nothing
more than a starting problem, so far as draw...

I borrowed one of those dryer vent cleaner pipes from a neighbor today. Semi-flexible 10ft.
steel handle and 6" diameter nylon brush. But now I don't even see any real reason to try it out.
Looks like instead I should just work up the courage to risk smoking up the house. Advice has it
that the 1269E stove is best started with the fuel high in the firebox and all the way back.
In other words, a top down start. In the past I have always used bottom up starts. Even
knowing this, my first attempts were with very little wood, kindling size, pretty low, and most
of the way back.

I think I may enlist a helper to stand outside and watch for smoke exiting the chimney, when
I light it off. All I may have going on here is referred to in the aviation field as "cockpit troubles".
Meaning the pilot is the problem, not the airplane. 🙄 I do remember the smoke definitely
preferred to belch out the 2 air intakes. I don't think any of it was making it up around the baffle.
As a precaution, I may have two bottles of water on hand 'just in case'. One that sprays, one that
squirts. I don't see any risk here- the stove will be cold. But if the smoke seems to be getting out
of hand, these would allow me to knock that fire down quickly, doing no harm to the stove.

David