Problem with Lock-Top damper

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mrjesserobinson

New Member
Hearth Supporter
Dec 30, 2010
4
Wisconsin
This is my first time posting. My hot water heater keeps turning off, and I suspect a recently installed Lock-Top damper to be the culprit. I can't get a chimney sweep to come till Monday to look at it, so I thought maybe someone could help me figure out what's going on. My wife is not happy with cold showers!

I have a house built in 1956 with a 3-sided fireplace, with a firebox opening that measures 30-inches high and 4-feet wide on two of the sides and 3-feet, 8-inches on the front. We have the original wire-mesh curtain around the opening; no glass. The hot water heater is located in the basement below and has a separate flue right next to the chimney flue with the recently installed Lock-Top damper. The hot water heater flue gets a great draw. However, recently during a fire in the fireplace I was getting a reverse direction; it blew out a match. The fire was almost over, just a few embers, and I closed the Lock-Top damper. I went back down in the basement to check the hot water heater flue and sure enough the draw was back. The next day, I had no fires and never opened the Lock-Top and the hot water heater pilot blew out again. Now, I was really confused. I called the plumber who installed the A.O. Smith unit a few years ago. He checked it all out and everything looked fine. We where getting a really good draw from the flue. He took out a metal liner which extended to the top of the hot water heater to an opening in the concrete block wall surrounding the fireplace in the basement (I presume this connects to a typical flue liner). There was a lot of soot in the liner, not fireplace ash as much as the kind of black particles you find in the water heater; rust from the element.

Anybody have any idea what is going on? Also, I smell an ash smell in the house around the fireplace with the fireplace cleaned of ash and the Lock-Top closed. I thought the Lock-Top was suppose to get rid of this? Any help would be appreciated.
 
Your getting a reversal of make up air down your water heater flue because the fireplace consumes a large volume of combustion air and the house makes it up by drawing make up air down your water heater flue. Are those two flues the same height? One should be extended about 12 inches taller than the other. This may help some but your house is still going to want to make up lost air. If the water heater is gas maybe you can vent it straight out the nearby wall? Another fix may be to crack a window near the fireplace during use.
 
Yes, the top of the flues are roughly the same height (the Lock-Top being higher now, which brings them closer together). But if make-up air is the problem, why would it be happening now? I've burned about 2 chords of wood over the past 4 years and only now have a problem.
 
Unless your Lock-Top is somehow obstructing your water heater flue I can't see how that could be the immediate cause of the issue. It will be interesting to see what the sweep finds.
 
I went up on the roof and both flues are completely clear from any kind of blockage. Then yesterday, the pilot light on my hot water heater went out twice. I have not had a fire since this post, and the Lock-Top has been shut the whole time. Plus, the ash smell around the fireplace has been really bad. I have a theory. I was thinking about what Todd said in his response. Maybe the Lock-Top is having the reverse effect. Maybe the air that came into the house through the old leaky damper was enough to supply the furnace. Now that I've installed a Lock-Top, maybe the furnace is pulling from the hot water heater vent instead. To test, late last night I slightly opened the Lock-Top. This morning the smell was completely gone around the fireplace! Hot water heater was working too. Could this be the cause?
 
mrjesserobinson said:
I went up on the roof and both flues are completely clear from any kind of blockage. Then yesterday, the pilot light on my hot water heater went out twice. I have not had a fire since this post, and the Lock-Top has been shut the whole time. Plus, the ash smell around the fireplace has been really bad. I have a theory. I was thinking about what Todd said in his response. Maybe the Lock-Top is having the reverse effect. Maybe the air that came into the house through the old leaky damper was enough to supply the furnace. Now that I've installed a Lock-Top, maybe the furnace is pulling from the hot water heater vent instead. To test, late last night I slightly opened the Lock-Top. This morning the smell was completely gone around the fireplace! Hot water heater was working too. Could this be the cause?

Hi MJR,

As I read through the thread, I came up with your theory too, though it does not explain why your water heater didn't/doesn't blow out while the fireplace is running, and sucking air out of your house.

I haven't seen your furnace mentioned in all this, and it could be contributing. What's it like?

Actually, I think your Lock-top is a nice upgrade, and will probably save you money by not losing air up the chimney when it's off. So how about just making your water heater happy, regardless? Perhaps giving it it's own outside air supply--run a pipe through your wall and near your water heater air inlet, minding clearances to combustibles--would fix it.

Your fireplace might still draw hard enough when in operation to reverse the draft on your WH, but that could be fixed by cracking a window when running your fireplace.

HTH, and good luck!
 
UPDATE:
I think I fix the problem! After many hours of research and time spent on this issue, I ended up returning the Lock-Top damper and replacing the gas valve on the hot water heater. Below is the out come for anyone searching with a similar problem.

The hot water heater is an A.O. Smith ProMax model: GCV 50 100. I found hundreds of complaints on-line with the same problem: pilot light going out randomly. It seemed to be a design flaw with the new sealed hot water heaters called FVIR or Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant. I called the manufacturer, who despite their reputation on-line, was quite helpful. After troubleshooting the unit with my multi-meter we determined it was either the gas valve or an intake problem. I cleaned the intake filter as per Smith's video on-line, so the gas regulator seemed most likely as the culprit. Since I was under warranty, they sent me a new one, only charging me $10 for shipping. To install the gas valve I had to drain the tank and disconnect the gas line, but after 3 hours I got it all back together. It has been 6 days now and the pilot light has not gone out once! Knock on wood, but I think I solved the problem.

I never knew for sure if the Lock-Top was part of the problem or not. We returned it because of the smell around the fireplace when it was closed. The chimney sweep attributed this smell to gaps in the mortar joints of the chimney tile that was letting in cold and smelly air into the house. Since the Lock-Top was above this it didn't block that air coming into the house. The sweeps solution was to resurface the chimney liner with a cerfractory flue sealant called Heat Shield. We didn't want to pay $1,600 for the Heat Shield, so we returned the Lock-Top. Prior to removing the Lock-Top I re-created the pre-Lock-Top condition by opening the Lock-Top damper completely and unhooking the damper handle from it's bracket. Then I tossed the handle and wire on top of my old damper and shut it as usual. So, I was using the old damper with the Lock-Top damper completely open. As I suspected the smell went away completely. But what also happened was the pilot light on my hot water heater didn't go for two days, where before it was going out 5 times a day. It did still go out, so definitely the gas valve was to blame, but I still think the Lock-Top had something to do with it. I'll never know for sure.

As for the smell in the summer (my main reason for purchasing the Lock-Top) I'm going to buy a chimney balloon and be done with it.
 
I hope you don't have plans to use the fireplace with a bad lining system.
 
mrjesserobinson said:
UPDATE:
I think I fix the problem! After many hours of research and time spent on this issue, I ended up returning the Lock-Top damper and replacing the gas valve on the hot water heater. Below is the out come for anyone searching with a similar problem.

Thanks for reporting back. That is very helpful for other folks, and a very thoughtful way of giving back.

Good luck!
 
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