Please help critique my wood burning process/struggles

[emt1581]

I've had my stove for 3-4 years now. It was essentially the only option for our home that cost the less and required minimal adapting of our structure in order to give us heat. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fact that I don't need fossil fuel and can harvest the fuel for it myself.

However, I've had continual problems ranging from multiple chimney (stainless) fires to 2 cat combusters being destroyed. And along with the endless labor, tracking dirt/bark pieces all over the house, etc...I'm tired of all the problems. I just want a safer and more efficient experience. So what I'm going to do is explain my process of burning/cleaning as well as some of the problems I've had. What I'd appreciate is any suggestions you can offer to help me out. And thanks in advance!

What I typically do is...

I'll order 2 cords of wood from my wood guy over the summer. He is a rare wood guy for this area in that he ALWAYS delivers <20% moisture content hardwood. That's just a foreign concept around here and most wood guys won't even deal with me because they know they are selling green as seasoned and once they find out I have a moisture meter I'll either get ignored or a snide comment about wasting their time. But I digress...

Now I order 2 cords because I usually have close to a cord left from the last season plus I can only afford to buy 2 cords at a time which will usually last me 2-3 months. Oddest thing was, even though last winter was the coldest we'd experienced, we used the least amount of wood since we bought the stove. Still trying to figure that one out. But this season was no different. Wood tested at <20% when I accepted it.

So the wood guy dumps his wood in my backyard and I let it sit there. I'll pull from the pile, fill my two wood rings on the lower rear porch and that'll last me about a week. This winter since we got seriously dumped on, I was using a motorcycle cover to cover the wood we were immediately burning so that I could keep it dry. Then what I'd do is bring the wood in and either stand it up on the hearth to let the stove dry it out even more (after peeling any bark off) or I'd just toss it in the wood cradle next to the hearth.

I fill the stove about 3-4 times a day. During the day when we're at work I keep it at about 300-400deg. When we're home, 350-450 unless it's super cold and then it's at 500-ish, and overnight I turn it back to the 300-350 again. Usually that lower temp is just coals/embers at the bottom. Not much flames through the charred windows. Also, the pipe leading to the thimble usually reads right at 100 and sometimes up to 150-200. Now it's double-walled so obviously the interior is hotter.

I also typically burn continuously throughout the season. And this winter I was forced to. The one time I was forced to stop is when I had a blockage and the smoke started backing up into the house. This happened in early Feb. and is was my fault. I was unable to get to the chimney cap up top or on the bottom because of the 3+ feet of snow on the ground. But again, my fault. I should have dug myself a path like my dept. did when they responded to the call.

But what I'll do is let the fire burn down to just coals and then use the shovel to sift the ash out. Then I'll open the ash pan and scoop that out so I can continue burning. I really don't take anything in the combuster area out to clean it or do much more than empty the ash pan during the burning season.

Then I'll go out and sweep the chimney twice a season from the bottom and clean the cap off once. After the fire dept was called, I swept every 3-4 weeks. And I noticed I had a LOT of creosote this winter even though the wood was pretty dry moisture content-wise. I did leave the big pile uncovered though. I'm thinking maybe a big tarp over it would be something to do next year.

In the off-season I'll rip/chisel out the top loading/griddle gasket and replace that, dismantle the section of pipe leading to the thimble, take that outside and clean it out real good. Something I noticed this winter was that this section of pipe was SERIOUSLY caked with creosote. I'm talking 3/4" thick and in 8x8 (approx) shingles of it peeling off inside the pipe. Never saw that before this season either.

Now from what I've talked about, where are the flaws in my system?

I'd really like to know how I've burned through TWO combusters in such a short time. I burned most of the season without one (which my stove is rated for)...but I noticed it burned about 25% faster without it, so I'll probably spring the $200 and buy another one.

Thanks again!

-Emt1581

 

[webbie]

Some of it could be the stove. Others have reported some problems over the years:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vermont-castings-encore-two-in-one-reviews-for-2011.74882/

Vermont Castings went through some very tough times - a couple bankruptcies and finally it was basically given to the new owners because it was worth nothing (actually less than nothing). Stove made between about 2006-2012 (and maybe some others) were not highly regarded....in some cases (not all).

At this point, your best bet may be to search around for other threads on that stove or PM some of the members who have the exact same model. No way you should go through a cat that often...and chimney fires are not usually a big problem with modern stoves.

Rain or snow water in your wood is the same, sometimes worse, than being less than fully seasoned.

 

[Grisu]

That sounds like a pretty horrible experience. I hope we can figure out what is going on.

When you get the wood: Do you split some pieces in half and press the pins into the center of the freshly exposed surface along the grain? I would also suggest storing it in a dry place, especially if it is already seasoned. No need to have it rained and snowed on. Did you check the door gaskets with the dollar-bill test? Could be the reason for the failed combustors and dirty window. Where do you read the temps? They sound a bit low. The pipe temp is also not reliable. You would need an internal probe for a doublewall pipe. Did you ever go outside to see if smoke is coming out of your chimney during your burns? How tall is the chimney? How is your draft?

 

[emt1581]

Some of it could be the stove. Others have reported some problems over the years:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vermont-castings-encore-two-in-one-reviews-for-2011.74882/

Vermont Castings went through some very tough times - a couple bankruptcies and finally it was basically given to the new owners because it was worth nothing (actually less than nothing). Stove made between about 2006-2012 (and maybe some others) were not highly regarded....in some cases (not all).

At this point, your best bet may be to search around for other threads on that stove or PM some of the members who have the exact same model. No way you should go through a cat that often...and chimney fires are not usually a big problem with modern stoves.

Rain or snow water in your wood is the same, sometimes worse, than being less than fully seasoned.

So the stove itself might be the issue? That's not good to hear especially since we paid a few grand for the fancy cream white one (Biscuit) because my wife insisted on that color. Plus we don't have the ability to afford another stove so this one has to be made to work.

Thanks for the info.

-Emt1581

 

[emt1581]

That sounds like a pretty horrible experience. I hope we can figure out what is going on.

When you get the wood: Do you split some pieces in half and press the pins into the center of the freshly exposed surface along the grain? I would also suggest storing it in a dry place, especially if it is already seasoned. No need to have it rained and snowed on. Did you check the door gaskets with the dollar-bill test? Could be the reason for the failed combustors and dirty window. Where do you read the temps? They sound a bit low. The pipe temp is also not reliable. You would need an internal probe for a doublewall pipe. Did you ever go outside to see if smoke is coming out of your chimney during your burns? How tall is the chimney? How is your draft?

Yes, I test 3-4 pieces in the manner you describe. Storing the entire 2-3 cords in a dry place...I just don't have the kind of space in my garage/covered porch etc. Will the tarp idea be something to try?

What is the dollar-bill test? I've used that to test free-float rifle barrels...not door gakets.

The temps are read on the cast iron (NOT the griddle) of the stove and the elbow of the pipe near the thimble.

Sometimes smoke is coming out but usually that's when I toss in a fresh load. Normally it's just the heat signature.

Draft seems kinda crappy to be honest. Rarely is it audible unless I have it running really hot (500deg).

Thanks

-Emt1581

 

[Chimney Smoke]

If your wood is truly dry, your temps are way too low. Even on double wall pipe, 100 on the pipe at the thimble is barely warm. The stovetop temps are also very low. My stovetop regularly read 500-700 on a continuos basis. You should have basically no creosote on the stovepipe between the stove and chimney.

 

[Nick Mystic]

I don't have any first hand experience with your model stove, so I can't comment on your stove itself. However, with all the creosote you described it certainly sounds like you are burning wood with a higher moisture content than you describe. I've never gotten any significant creosote in any of my stoves when I've burned dry wood at the temperatures you've described. And, I've always gotten build up when I've burned wet wood. So, based on that I would look at your wood and wood storage set up. Yes, covering with a tarp is preferable to letting it get wet in the elements. Is there a place on your property where you could build a covered wood storage area? I have all my wood up against a retainer wall with a shed roof overhanging my wood, three stacks deep, that works great and was of minimal cost to build. Good luck finding a fix.

 

[KD0AXS]

You need to get your wood stacked and off the ground, not just left in a pile.

 

[jatoxico]

Another vote for some type of a wood shed. Can be made at least partially with pallets. I probably have $80-100 of material into my little lean to off one of my sheds.

You didn't mention (I don't think) what type of pipe you have. Pass that info along if you can (insulated, double wall etc). Sounds like it's either exposed to a lot of cold or you need to run hotter more consistently. Considering you used less wood this year maybe you need to let more heat up the pipe to keep the temps up.

 

[HotCoals]

Put a cat back in and don't do that again . You're not using much wood at all so either your house is way small or super insulated or both..or you are freezing most of the time.
Sounds to me like you are smoldering wood way to much and the wood still sounds suspect to me.

 

[firefighterjake]

Usually when there is a significant build up of creosote it's one of two things: too much moisture in the wood or the burning temp is too low (which can be caused by not enough oxygen, wet wood, etc.)

 

[Kosmik]

Not much flames through the charred windows.

Does that stove have airwash?
If you have airwash and get bad buildup on windows, I'd vote not enough oxygen (or fire too cold) for proper combustion given the level of moisture in your wood.
What other things do you see when burning that tell you your wood is dry? Meters can be wrong/inaccurate.

Any air leaks into the chimney?

Uncovered pile will absorb moisture. Did you check any splits before going in the stove, after sitting uncovered?

 

[Woody Stover]

Uncovered pile will absorb moisture. Did you check any splits before going in the stove, after sitting uncovered?

With the wood in a pile on the wet ground, everything but the surface of the pile will be in a permanently humid environment and a week or two stacked on the porch, or a day next to the stove, isn't going to help a lot. Getting the wood stacked on pallets (elevated on concrete blocks, logs, whatever) with a top cover would be a vast improvement.
As far as the cat, throwing wet wood into the stove on a reload three or four times a day and immediately closing the bypass will roast the cat in a hurry...that's one possibility but I don't know exactly how you reload...

 

[Charles1981]

I have this stove. I burn 1 year c\s\s (cut split and stacked) ash. In no way do I think the griddle top temperature matches with anything going on in the catalyst chamber. The griddle can read 400 and the catalyst chamber is blaring red hot and the amount of heat from the rear of the stove is unbearable. The stove top can read 500-600 sometimes and I have trouble firing the cat off (until it disintegrated).

After 2 years with the stove and destroying the cat this season I am going to order a catalyst probe because it is really the only way to know what is going on in the chamber back there.

I just burned up my first cat this winter...basically cracked in multiple spots and then huge chunks just fell down into the burn chamber.

I THINK the cat chamber is getting WAY to hot and it is destroying the cat, or wet wood steam is mixing with ignited flames in the chamber causing temperature fluctuations and thus cracking and failure of the cat. (I don't really know for sure and have no research to back this statement up). But I do know I need to install a catalyst probe this summer.

After the cat failed and broke to pieces I was running it without the cat for about 2 months. The stove really didn't seem to work much differently, still glowing from the cat chamber from 2nd burn. I am wondering if there is Non-Cat secondary burn occurring in the catalyst chamber in combination with catalyst burning when the cat is installed resulting in too high a temperature and damage to the cat?

I just got my replacement cat this week. It is a different design but the same size. The material looks slightly different as well (the original was a pearly white, and this one is a dirty white...but maybe this is normal variation?) but the steel structure surrounding it is not quite the same design as the original.


The bigger concern is the two chimney fires as well as the blockage with creosote.

1) How tall is the chimney?
2) Is the Chimney interior to the house or on an exterior wall?
3) Is the Chimney insulated?

You are getting severe creosote buildup because either 1) the wood is actually wet 2) the chimney temperature is too cool and the gases get very cold and collect on the pipe 3) you are burning the stove too low and cold.

And a catalyst probe is going to be a must.

Overall though I love my stove it heats my house very well, I ran through almost 4.5 cords of wood this winter. I clean it out every 3 months and get about a 1/2 gallon of creosote out (brown and flaky). The catalyst falling apart is a long term concern though. You may want to try the stove without the catalyst and see how you are with the process.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the good info. These 2n1s sound like tricky stoves to run right. 1/2 gallon of sote every 3 months sounds like a lot. Is that per cleaning or for the entire season? What is your flue setup like?

 

[Charles1981]

Well I fill up a 32oz coffee can almost twice but not quite with each cleaning to measure it so close to 64oz of brown flaky material every 3 months (My wood probably is not bone dry either but i don't have a moisture reader yet either...so many toys...so much flak from the wife)....

My chimney is centered smack dab in the middle of the house and is 26 feet of rigid stainless steel liner 6 inches. I know all the flak about chimney liners and insulation but mine was not insulated at installation at the recommendation of my installer. Knowing now I probably would have pressed the issue...

Draft isn't an issue it pulls extremely well.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I think your strong draft may be part of why your stove is working better than some other 2in1s. If you want to insulate the liner consider a block-off plate and pouring in insulation.

 

[emt1581]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies!

So many of them! I'll respond in general rather than reply by reply.

As for the treatment and storage of the wood. I actually forgot to mention it, but I was mad as hell at my wood guy last season and stopped just short of threatening to sue him. Turned out I was SERIOUSLY wrong so I'm glad I didn't fly completely off the handle. Here's what happened...He's delivered wood to me since I bought my stove and I ALWAYS tested the wood and it always tested <20% or just a percent or two over. However, the shipment last year I did not test because I was in a hurry. I just trusted him. After the chimney fire last year (I had several of them), I tested the wood and it was at 35%+. I called him up and complained and he insisted his wood was dry. So I gave him another chance this year. Sure enough it was dry so I accepted delivery. Then this winter when we got foot after foot of snow, I dug out the wood and tested it...yup...35%+! But I figured drying it out in front of the stove for a few days would dry it out. I know it sounds really ignorant but I never thought to re-test it before burning. Didn't really have a choice either. We would have had no heat in sub-zero temps if I didn't burn it unless I started busting up the floor boards and such.

So I'm guessing what happened was the seasoned wood became over-saturated and destroyed both cats with the steam someone mentioned in the burn chamber.

While I don't have the capability to build a burn shed space-wise, plus my township would probably crap a hairy worm with a bell on it over such a thing, I can and will keep the wood covered with a tarp from now on. So that's one thing I can do to change and improve things.

Others mentioned the fire not burning hot enough. But, other than being absolutely sure the wood is dry enough, what can I do to increase the efficiency, draft, temp?

With the probe that was mentioned...any links to one on google or ebay? I've never heard of such a thing. I actually thought about buying an IR thermometer in the past just to see how the heat was distributed throughout the system (stove, pipe, chimney, etc).

Thanks!

-Emt1581

 

[bobdog2o02]

A great start is to cover your wood but just as important is to get it off of the ground. It will wick moisture from the ground surface. I suggest following "The Wood Shed" room here and see what guys do with pallets. Cheap and effective. Best would be to stack above the ground instead of as a heap. It's a bit more time consuming but hearing about chimney fires makes me think it might be worth it.

 

[emt1581]

A great start is to cover your wood but just as important is to get it off of the ground. It will wick moisture from the ground surface. I suggest following "The Wood Shed" room here and see what guys do with pallets. Cheap and effective. Best would be to stack above the ground instead of as a heap. It's a bit more time consuming but hearing about chimney fires makes me think it might be worth it.

I actually do have about a cord stored with pallets. Here's what I do. The back of my yard boarders a treeline. So I took two pallets and laid them between two trees. Then I took another two pallet and leaned them up against the trunks of the two trees. So I essentially have a U-shaped 4'x4'x8' section of wood. That wood has always burned pretty well without issue. Not sure I could do the same for 3-4cords of wood.

Thanks

-Emt1581

 

[HotCoals]

Using tress to hold your stack up is handy ,but it also means your wood is in the shade.
I know...we are fussy around here..lol.

 

[kennyp2339]

Hey brother, after reading the whole thread it sounds like your right on target with needing dryer wood, I would take an order right now and stack it on pallets to keep it off the ground in an area that get ample sun and wind. As far as the creosote issue / cat issue, since the wood you have been burning is sub-par your not getting the high enough temps to efficiently have a "cat light off" you may at first get the temp hot enough for a "light off" but as you damper down then stove temps decrease taking the cat out of the active zone. The epa tube stoves are a little less finicky in that manner, but to truly run your stove the proper way you need to have the driest wood possible. Its all a learning curve for everyone, we have all been in your shoes, but once you get dry wood and realize the potential of good wood, you will always make sure you have dry wood.

 

[Kosmik]

Make sure when you tarp the wood to allow sufficient airflow, not making a humidity dome.

 

[emt1581]

Make sure when you tarp the wood to allow sufficient airflow, not making a humidity dome.

I was thinking about that but what's the technique there? How do you rip the tarp or angle it or whatever so that it ventilates but doesn't saturate the wood?

Thanks

-Emt1581

 

[begreen]

Just top cover the wood stacks. The sides should be open to allow the wind to blow through them.