Pellets not burning completely, LACK OF AIR?

[hotdawg]

I need help troubleshooting my new Jamestown J2000 pellet stove. I've tried everything I know of short of installing an OAK, which I don't even know if that will help my problem. It's gotten really cold in MA and I don't think my stove is burning as efficiently as everyone else's stove just based on reading discussion threads. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

It's a very basic install about 4 feet rise straight out the wall (I'll attach pics when I can figure it out) but no OAK. Dealer was really against it and insisted I didn't need it. Stove is new with preburn with the dealer installed end of November. It's a very basic stove which was what I wanted so none of the fancy settings like in the Harmans or Quadra Fire or Enviro. Starts up very quickly every time and burns very well or at least that's what I used to think. The flame is always a nice healthy white to yellow flame with bluish tinge in the center but can get very high when I move to higher heat setting. I've been experimenting with the draft control based on pellets. It is a new toy so excuse me with all the touching and exploring. I'm trying to find her, Betsy (yes I named my stove! Don't judge!) sweet spot and hope she'll produce the most heat for me! Haven't quite achieve that yet but with this forum and all your advice, I better be able to figure her out before the really cold weather gets here!

House:

2800+ sq ft colonial built in 2002, has good insulation and windows, fairly tight. Stove is in the livingroom on the first floor directly facing out to the front foyer and stairs. I'm not expecting to heat up my entire hourse but more as supplemental heat for the downstairs so my expectations for heating the upstairs bedrooms are pretty low.

Here's my observations about the stove/burning:

-Flame is healthy about half way up the stove on heat settings 1 and 2 with draft at 2 and auger feed at 1 (slowest I can make it). Seems to run best on setting 2 but 2 is not going to cut it when temps get down to the teens in MA. Once I push the stove to heat setting 3+, the flame gets really big, as high as the heat exchanger tubes. I don't think the flame should be that big, right?
-I've been using only "Premium" pellets. The brand used the most so far Spruce Pointes and tried out Barefoots this weekend and Okies this week due to low overnight temps. Having more difficulty burning hardwood pellets. They just do not burn very well/completely but does produce a ton of heat even when not burning completely. Pellets start to build up in burnpot within 12 hours of starting the stove on heat setting 2 to 3 and fan blowing high, auger feed rate 1.
-I've also noticed that when I push the heat setting to a 4 or 5, even with auger feed at a 1, the pellets are coming out a little faster compared to when I have the heat setting down in the 1/2 range. I'm assuming its trying to keep up with producing the higher heat so more pellets are required but I've noticed the pellets in the burnpot are not completely burned and new pellets would fall on top which starts to block up the air holes in the burnpot.
-Depending on the pellets, I have to play around with the draft setting ( A LOT!) to get the pellets to burn completely in the burnpot. I have yet to achieve complete burns with hardwood pellets. Majority of the time, I have to shut the stove down to empty out the burnpot all withing 24 hours of using the stove. Even my "completely" is no where near the burns of the Fire Gods on this forum which leads me to believe I'm not achieving maximum heat output. I would also like to burn more then 2 bags of pellets before shutting down and cleaning.
-Damper/Draft control options are 1-6. At low heat setting of 1-2, the draft is at about a 1-2 and maintains a very healthy flame. I watch the flame to make sure I'm feeding it enough air for a good burn. I usually open up the draft by increments based on the amount of buildup I see in the burnpot, usually open wide if I notice pellets starting to buildup or flame gets lazy. This strategy works with the softwoods but not so good with the hardwoods. Last night with Barefoots, had to open draft to a 6 and still pellet buildup and slow/incomplete burn which causes more pellets to build up and block the holes in the burnpot and its all downhill from there.
-ash is not ashy grey like everyone talks about, it's thicker and chunkier but I guess that happens with Softwood but doesn't explain why I don't have any grey fly ash in the stove especially when burning hardwood pellets.
-pretty much every time I stop the stove to clean/scrape the burnpot, I've vacuumed the inside,clean the glass and empty out the ash pan. This has been averaging almost once a day. The longest time I went without cleaning/vacumming was 2.5 days using Spruce Pointes with a lot of manual draft adjustment even using the same pellet. All the other times its been about 12-24 hours of usage before shutdown to clean. I'm ready and willing to clean my stove but just thought it could burn a little longer then 12-24 hours before each cleaning.



I read on this forum that people are burning 7-10 bags before they even consider cleaning, and in some cases even longer! I'm doing something very wrong if I'm cleaning almost every day and still have pellet build up due to slow burn! Is not having an OAK the issue? I'm thinking I might have an air flow issue if my pellets are not burning completely. I've opened up the draft completely and that's helped some but I have no where to go from a 6! What else should I be doing? I'm burning the best pellets I can find and still not having half the results. What do you guys think? Air flow? Crappy stove? Crappy install? Bad pellets? It's NOT dirty! I'm nuts over keeping a clean stove! All ideas/suggestions are welcomed! Just don't be too harsh! I'm trying to learn! THANKS!

 

[PJPellet]

2800+ sq ft colonial built in 2002, has good insulation and windows, fairly tight


I really think an OAK would help in your situation.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

hotdawg,

It can be a fairly large number of things.

Please do the dollar bill gasket test on two separated spots on each side of the door and report back what you get.

If the firebox is open to the ash pan you likely have a gasket on the ash pan drawer or door, do the same test there and report back what you get.

If the fire box is not open to the ash pan and there are covers that block access to the ash pan make certain those are properly positioned and closed.

If you had any ash trap covers open make certain those are properly positioned and closed.

If you want to try OAK vs no OAK open a window close to the stove.

About damper settings if the stove has trim controls that are not accessible to the user, the stove must be setup and adjusted using a mag by someone with access to the recommended settings, after this is done you really shouldn't need to monkey with the damper to any large degree. Fully closed to fully open is a large degree unless the stoves combustion blower always runs full speed. Breckwells were noted for this as are USSC stoves in manual mode.

If the stove has user adjustable trim controls, the damper is set by mag at installation and not moved, the trim controls are used based on the fuel being burned to make fine adjustments.

Too much air is as bad as not enough, it can also cause pileups (it is not the usual cause but it still can cause them).

When experimenting with the damper it is critical to make small slow changes and allow the stove to reach steady state at each adjustment. This takes at least 30 minutes between change and checking the flame , etc ... before making the next change. Do not rush the adjustment. Likewise never start playing after the stove is turned on until it has exited start up and has reach steady state.

Venting plays a very large role in how well a stove will burn, too many folks do not pay it the attention they should.

 

[hotdawg]

Hi SmokeyTheBear, what does the dollar bill test suppose to do? If I can pull the dollar out, then all my gasket is bad? Or I just need to tighten the door somehow? I just spent an hour cleaning the stove again so everything looks great, all doors closed nice and tight but apparently not tight enough since I was able to pull the dollar out with some resistance in three different locations. The gasket is new so maybe tightening the door will help?

I've been playing around with the damper settings trying to get the perfect balance. Usually when I see pellets burning slow or flame getting lazy, I give it a little more air. Should I not be doing that? The adjustment usually works with the softwood pellets I burn but no matter what I do with the hardwood pellets, I expect to get major pellet pile up within 12 hours. Even before the pile up, I notice the hardwoods are burning very slowly and black but flame looks okay, just lazier.

You mentioned too much air can be bad too, how can I tell if I opened the damper to wide? I was just hoping to give the pellets more air to help it burn faster to avoid build up in the burnpot. I have access to both the damper setting and auger trim. The auger trim I have set on the lowest level and still have some issues with pile up of pellet with the hardwoods. I can't imagine if I increase the speed of feed much more then a one, how long the stove will burn before having to shut it down to clean the burnpot.

My installation was pretty straight forward. Up about 4 feet and straight out the wall. Nothing fancy. I'll try to post some pics so everyone can see and give me advice. Maybe it was a bad install but I can't imagine. The dealer was in and out with my install. I probably could have done it but decided to leave it to the experts.

 

[superchips]

Unless you are heating an open barn, you are wasting your $ trying to heat a house with a pellet stove not using an OAK. Not surprised that you are having the issues you are having.
Shoot the lazy installer!
Your stove needs a steady supply of combustion air. That air now is being supplied by the hot air the stove is heating and is being replaced by sucking cold out side air into your house.
The idea of running a pellet stove is to convert chilled air into hot air raising the temp in your living area. Not chilling down the drafty areas of your house.
Judging by your symptoms I have to guess that you have a fairly tight house and the combustion fan has to fight to draw the cold air from out side.
Try this: open a nearby outside door and watch the flame for a few minutes.

Yes, It is possible that you have other problems, but this is the first correctable must.

Rule #1: Never install a stove in a house without a sufficient sized OAK and Exhaust.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Hi SmokeyTheBear, what does the dollar bill test suppose to do? If I can pull the dollar out, then all my gasket is bad? Or I just need to tighten the door somehow? I just spent an hour cleaning the stove again so everything looks great, all doors closed nice and tight but apparently not tight enough since I was able to pull the dollar out with some resistance in three different locations. The gasket is new so maybe tightening the door will help?

I've been playing around with the damper settings trying to get the perfect balance. Usually when I see pellets burning slow or flame getting lazy, I give it a little more air. Should I not be doing that? The adjustment usually works with the softwood pellets I burn but no matter what I do with the hardwood pellets, I expect to get major pellet pile up within 12 hours. Even before the pile up, I notice the hardwoods are burning very slowly and black but flame looks okay, just lazier.

You mentioned too much air can be bad too, how can I tell if I opened the damper to wide? I was just hoping to give the pellets more air to help it burn faster to avoid build up in the burnpot. I have access to both the damper setting and auger trim. The auger trim I have set on the lowest level and still have some issues with pile up of pellet with the hardwoods. I can't imagine if I increase the speed of feed much more then a one, how long the stove will burn before having to shut it down to clean the burnpot.

My installation was pretty straight forward. Up about 4 feet and straight out the wall. Nothing fancy. I'll try to post some pics so everyone can see and give me advice. Maybe it was a bad install but I can't imagine. The dealer was in and out with my install. I probably could have done it but decided to leave it to the experts.

The paper should come out but there should be resistance to pulling out and it should be that way at every spot on the door.

Gaskets are not verified by sight or how the door appears to close. Doors can usually be adjusted to get an even tight gasket seal.

There are other things that need checking such as air wash gaps.

 

[hotdawg]

Okay, so the stove did pass the dollar bill test. I can pull the bill out but definitely with some resistance. I'll open the windows in the livingroom to give it more air to see if that helps. I really do think its an air flow issue. I cleaned the stove again this morning and fired her up using Barefoot pellets. She usually burns great for a couple of airs but as time goes by I see the flame getting lazier and lazier. It's still a strong flame but definitely not as robust as when it first started. I've adjusted the damper by one level at a time and let her burn. Seems to help a little but it starts slowing again until I open the damper a little more. Pretty soon I'll be completely open and by tomorrow am, the pot will be pretty full with overflow.

As for the "lazy installer", he was a really nice older gentleman with an assistant. They were both adamantly against the OAK. Actually two other dealers I went to see were not very keen on installing an oak with pretty much all the same reasoning. They also said that if I really felt like I needed one, then its easy enough to install it versus installing one and finding out I didn't need it. I still don't know for sure if I need it but there's definitely a problem with my stove, lazy flame and incomplete burning of pellets. I don't know why all these installers are so against an OAK but all the ones I've come across do not recommend it unless it's required by the stove.

So, in order to get more combustion air in the stove I would have to introduce another air source? I can't just get a fan to blow more air at it? I assume that wouldn't work since it's the same air circulating around the house?

Sorry for all the stupid questions or sounding ignorant. I'm just trying to achieve a good burn but somehow completely missing the mark. I'm realizing now that pellet stoving is like a fine art! There's really no half-assing this! Thanks everyone for sharing all your wisdom with a newbie! I really appreciate it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Give us a detailed description of the venting.

We need the diameter of the vent and the length and type of every single piece in the system.

We also need to know about all other air moving devices in the house.

 

[superchips]

If you question the need for an OAK, talk to your local code enforcement or make a call to the manufacturer and explain your issue....
I've said enough.
Merry Christmassss

 

[checkthisout]

Okay, so the stove did pass the dollar bill test. I can pull the bill out but definitely with some resistance. I'll open the windows in the livingroom to give it more air to see if that helps. I really do think its an air flow issue. I cleaned the stove again this morning and fired her up using Barefoot pellets. She usually burns great for a couple of airs but as time goes by I see the flame getting lazier and lazier. It's still a strong flame but definitely not as robust as when it first started. I've adjusted the damper by one level at a time and let her burn. Seems to help a little but it starts slowing again until I open the damper a little more. Pretty soon I'll be completely open and by tomorrow am, the pot will be pretty full with overflow.

As for the "lazy installer", he was a really nice older gentleman with an assistant. They were both adamantly against the OAK. Actually two other dealers I went to see were not very keen on installing an oak with pretty much all the same reasoning. They also said that if I really felt like I needed one, then its easy enough to install it versus installing one and finding out I didn't need it. I still don't know for sure if I need it but there's definitely a problem with my stove, lazy flame and incomplete burning of pellets. I don't know why all these installers are so against an OAK but all the ones I've come across do not recommend it unless it's required by the stove.

So, in order to get more combustion air in the stove I would have to introduce another air source? I can't just get a fan to blow more air at it? I assume that wouldn't work since it's the same air circulating around the house?

Sorry for all the stupid questions or sounding ignorant. I'm just trying to achieve a good burn but somehow completely missing the mark. I'm realizing now that pellet stoving is like a fine art! There's really no half-assing this! Thanks everyone for sharing all your wisdom with a newbie! I really appreciate it.

So it burns fine but the builds up and quits?

That's quite odd unless your stove is changing shape as it heats up and allowing air to leak in. (not likely)

Listen to the combustion blower when your stove first fires up and see if it's slowing down as your burn gets more crappy.

 

[hotdawg]

Dexterday and j-takeman just taught me how to post pics on this forum. Below are some images of the install and stove. I had the building inspector through and he said everything looks fine. No issues and no OAK needed. He said where I have the stove installed I shouldn't have too much trouble with air flow.

I opened the window nearest the stove last night for 15 minutes. I didn't see a noticeable difference with the flame. Maybe I should have it open longer? I did play with the damper adjustment per Smokey's suggestion and waiting much longer this time in between changes. I ran the stove since 12 pm yesterday and its still running now and so far not too much buildup using Barefoots, which I thought my stove couldn't handle but I guess I'm wrong again. The flame doesn't look lazy like it did last night. I have it set on heat level 2 out of 5, damper at 5 out of 6, and auger trim and blower set at lowest setting. The burnpot looks pretty clean so I don't know what the deal is with the stove. It's probably not the stove but more user issues!

We have the oil furnace in the basement set on tstat at 66 but the pellet stove kept the house at above 68 degrees last night so it didn't fire. There are 3 ceiling fans up in the bedrooms but usually only one is on in the master bedroom at night.
Below are some pictures:

The first pic is the stove burning this morning. I think the flame looks fine.
The second picture is the piping. It's shorter then I thought for some reason but is 3" piping.
The third is the outside portion of the pipe. It's making my siding dirty. Is that normal or indicative of more issues if its making the siding dirty like that?

I forgot to mention I'm on a hill and it gets windy up here. Not sure if I should take wind factor into account. Does it affect the performance of the stove if it's windy out? Okay, I'm done with stupid questions. Thanks for all the help!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Ok, a few things.

First from the vent cap it looks like you have done a lot of burning with a poor damper setting.

I would pull that termination cap and suck out all the ash from the venting and tee using a leaf blower. Be sure to snap a picture of the screen on that cap so you can share it with us.

Second you should never vent into the prevailing wind, if you are and you've had a lot of wind with strong gusts heading straight at the termination cap it will act exactly like a poor damper setting would and would be random in its effect.

Third, if you are venting into the prevailing wind you have a few choices, they are:

1: Change the vent direction and size,
2: Move the stove to another side of the house.
3: Build a wind shield.
4: Install an OAK on the same side as the vent.

Personally if it were me I'd bite the bullet and do both 3 and 4.

 

[hotdawg]

I had a feeling you were going to say that about the wind. Do you have a "design plan" for a wind shield? That might be the easiest and quickest fix right now. The vent is in the direction of the wind and we don't have a lot of protection (trees or other buildings) around our house. I noticed it was very windy last night and the flame was a lot lazier. This morning no wind and the flame is nice and healthy and not floppy looking even at the lowest setting. I don't know if changing the vent direction will make a difference since that side of the house is completely open to the wind and we can't move the stove to the other side of the house. The location where it's at is the best to help heat the house and the heat goes out to the front foyer and straight up to the stairs to the bedroom so it's been keeping the upstairs warm as well. So a wind shield is a good bet for now, just need some directions on how to build one.

So, just trying to understand the biggest reason that I might have an air flow issue could be caused by the wind and the lack of an OAK? How does the wind act to deter the performance of the stove? The OAK (when its installed) will act as a consistent combustion air supply for the stove which will make it perform better or not be so starved for air? Is that how it works? I just shut the stove off for another cleaning and do the leaf blower on the outside vent. I haven't been burning for that long so the dirtiness of the siding is all caused by poor damper setting on the stove which could be caused by venting into the wind? Sorry, I guess the stupid questions keep flowing out. Thanks Smokey for all the help. Might have to send you some thank you pellets when this is done! By the way, Barefoot pellets are AWESOME I thought Spruce Pointes were great but these Barefoots are amazing!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The wind acts like a plug in your venting or having the damper shut down too much.

The OAK neutralizes the effect of wind to a large degree plus it removes the effects of any air movers inside the house plus it assists in setting up a natural draft in the venting system as well as stops any smoke from exiting the air intake when the power goes bye bye.

I don't know what the area around that vent is like but I'd be tempted to put a piece of solid fencing about 4' away from the vent that at least comes up above the vent. You could also attach a sheet metal shield to the house that goes around the cap just a bit above and below it.

Perhaps a jet cap would also work.

 

[heat seeker]

I had to vent out the windward side of my house, and we get a lot of strong winds here (which is why this is called Windy Knoll Farm). I insisted on an OAK at installation, and have had no problems with the wind. As Smokey says, the OAK neutralizes the wind pressure against the vent. (The dealer didn't want to install the OAK, I had to insist. It cost me extra, of course.)

 

[hotdawg]

So how much am I looking at to add an OAK to my stove? I did bring it up with my installer but everyone I spoke to, including two other dealers and another installer said no to OAK. I figured since they were the "experts" I should just rely on their advice in this case. I've noticed today without the wind the flame is healthier, not as lazy as yesterday so I would venture to say that air flow is the main cause for my lazy flame. I'll call the installer tomorrow and see what he has to say. Is installing an OAK difficult?

 

[heat seeker]

There are articles in this forum about OAKs, installing them, cleaning them, whatever you can think of. Try a search.

I've seen kits for $60, or you can corral the parts locally for a lot less. Metal piping is strongly suggested, as under certain conditions hot gasses can pass through the OAK, and plastic just wouldn't do. You may want to disconnect the OAK in the summer, so moisture doesn't get in the stove and rust it. I learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[superchips]

Realize that you are going to be heating your house with pellets for several years. You should run 4" pellet pipe up the side of the house to the proper height above the roof line. As it is now, you are going to destroy the siding. You also should install the OAK at your soonest. It is a huge waste of heat not to.
You can take my advice or deal with the issues until it costs enough problems, then take my advice. I don't care. It's your house, your time, and your wallet.
Good luck.