Oil/Wood Boiler upgrade options

[Newfiestang]

Folks, we currently have a New Yorker Oil fired boiler accompanied by the New Yorker WF 100 wood boiler providing heat to fin style high temp baseboard rads on 5 zones. This system was installed by myself in my newly build home about 14 years ago. The home is 1650 sq ft x 2, split between main level and basement. The home was built to normal standards for that period and insulated accordingly. Home is Located on east coast of Canada with temps hovering between 5deg C to -10 on most days but can be windy.

For the most part we heat the home in the winter months with birch wood I get delivered from local suppliers, usually 16 cord at a time and then dried for about a year. This quantity usually last about 3 winters.

While we are satisfied with the heating system we do see an increased number of our friends switching to other systems such as mini split heat pumps as a secondary source but we are not quite ready to make that move yet. What we are interested in though is maybe an upgrade to our current system. I have done some research and read alot on wood gasifier boilers but to be honest the storage and cost just seems like an un-achievable venture at this point.

With that said I am looking for any ideas on how we could improve our current system to make the system a more efficient heating source (if possible). That may be a better wood boiler, oil boiler, more efficient radiators, some storage, etc. If there is not much that can be done than I guess we will move on and continue to use what we have or consider something completely different such as a multi zone mini split. I've attached a picture below of the piping of both boilers to give you guys an idea of what we currently use, this was taken from the wood boiler manual.

Thanks in advance.
Attached Images

 

[Newfiestang]

49 views and not one suggestion......someone must have something to say.

 

[velvetfoot]

I looked at it yesterday and couldn't figure out the diagram, but I'm no genius. Looks like the flow is from the top to the bottom in the wood boiler?

How about adding storage? It would help your boiler run cleaner, and if you got another wood boiler in the future, you could use it.

 

[maple1]

I don't think you can improve on much with that boiler, they're not very efficient. And you kind of ruled out gasification and storage. So that left me with not much to say.

Something you might consider is looking for a non-gasser with tubes. And adding storage to that.

 

[JohnDolz]

I don't think you can improve on much with that boiler, they're not very efficient. And you kind of ruled out gasification and storage. So that left me with not much to say.

Something you might consider is looking for a non-gasser with tubes. And adding storage to that.

Folks, we currently have a New Yorker Oil fired boiler accompanied by the New Yorker WF 100 wood boiler providing heat to fin style high temp baseboard rads on 5 zones. This system was installed by myself in my newly build home about 14 years ago. The home is 1650 sq ft x 2, split between main level and basement. The home was built to normal standards for that period and insulated accordingly. Home is Located on east coast of Canada with temps hovering between 5deg C to -10 on most days but can be windy.

For the most part we heat the home in the winter months with birch wood I get delivered from local suppliers, usually 16 cord at a time and then dried for about a year. This quantity usually last about 3 winters.

While we are satisfied with the heating system we do see an increased number of our friends switching to other systems such as mini split heat pumps as a secondary source but we are not quite ready to make that move yet. What we are interested in though is maybe an upgrade to our current system. I have done some research and read alot on wood gasifier boilers but to be honest the storage and cost just seems like an un-achievable venture at this point.

With that said I am looking for any ideas on how we could improve our current system to make the system a more efficient heating source (if possible). That may be a better wood boiler, oil boiler, more efficient radiators, some storage, etc. If there is not much that can be done than I guess we will move on and continue to use what we have or consider something completely different such as a multi zone mini split. I've attached a picture below of the piping of both boilers to give you guys an idea of what we currently use, this was taken from the wood boiler manual.

Thanks in advance.
View attachment 192220 Attached Images

Maybe another way to look at this is what are you trying to achieve on what ROI are you willing to take on to achieve your goal or waht are you willing to spend and someone might be able to help you understand what return you might get for that investment? For example there are many things you can do, install better emitters, insulate, replace everything, etc. but if you end up saving 2 cord a year what are you willing to spend to save that?

 

[maple1]

You're actually doing pretty darn good heating that much space with that much wood with that boiler.

 

[Newfiestang]

I looked at it yesterday and couldn't figure out the diagram, but I'm no genius. Looks like the flow is from the top to the bottom in the wood boiler?

How about adding storage? It would help your boiler run cleaner, and if you got another wood boiler in the future, you could use it.

The flow is from wood boiler to the oil boiler and back to the wood boiler if the water temp in the wood boiler is above what the thermostat 'K' in the wood boiler is set to, currently at 165 deg F. Basically just a flow loop via pump 'D'. Thermostat 'K' once satisfied also disables the oil boiler from firing. At this point if a room thermostat calls for heat pump 'C' then starts once the zone valve end switch is closed in the valve. The water for heat demand than leaves the oil boiler and returns through the return manifild back to the oil boiler. Pump 'D' never stops if wood boiler temp is above what thermostat 'K' is set to.

Hope this helps in understanding the current operation. Basically the way I see it is that the oil boiler is sort of a small buffer tank so I figured that if I add a bigger tank say in between pump 'D' and the oil boiler then I would effectively add more thermal storage but maybe this wont work.

Another reason I thought on doing this is that this system has a dump zone which is my basement zone. This zone does fire on a regular basis most days so that leads me to believe that the boiler should be able to charge a buffer tank of some sort.

 

[Newfiestang]

I don't think you can improve on much with that boiler, they're not very efficient. And you kind of ruled out gasification and storage. So that left me with not much to say.

Something you might consider is looking for a non-gasser with tubes. And adding storage to that.

Well I never ruled out storage, I just limited to what I can fit through a 30" door. I'm all for storage actually but from my research most say that non gasifer boilers are not efficient enough to take advantage of storage.

 

[Newfiestang]

Maybe another way to look at this is what are you trying to achieve on what ROI are you willing to take on to achieve your goal or waht are you willing to spend and someone might be able to help you understand what return you might get for that investment? For example there are many things you can do, install better emitters, insulate, replace everything, etc. but if you end up saving 2 cord a year what are you willing to spend to save that?

Well I guess it comes down to cost. Today I called several suppliers in my area about storage tanks and so far the least expensive is $1500 CDN for 120 gal, that seems pricey to me.

I would definitely look at emitters as well as I hate the current fin type baseboard. What do you suggest?

I think the house is already insulated well so I dont think i can improve much on that.

 

[Newfiestang]

You're actually doing pretty darn good heating that much space with that much wood with that boiler.

Ya i think it does ok, these Newyorker boilers are as basic as they get but they are long lasting units, very common where I live. My father still uses his, its well over 30 years old now, they just last forever. I would just like to get a few more hours out of it after we turn in for the night. Since there is only about 40 gal of water between the wood and oil boiler, once the the fire goes out and the temp drops in the wood boiler then uts back over to oil for the remainder of the night. I figure this happens around 3AM if i fill the wood boiler around 11 PM.

 

[Dutchie84]

So you are burning approx. 5 cord a year but how much oil are you burning?

 

[Newfiestang]

So you are burning approx. 5 cord a year but how much oil are you burning?

We are burning approx $1300 per year but thats where our DHW comes from when we are not burning wood. That being said, a good portion of that $1300 probably comes from the oil used for heat in the winter when the wood burner runs out of wood at 3 AM......which is part of the reason I started this thread and why I would like to know if thermal storage will work with my current boilers and setup.

 

[Dutchie84]

We are burning approx $1300 per year but thats where our DHW comes from when we are not burning wood. That being said, a good portion of that $1300 probably comes from the oil used for heat in the winter when the wood burner runs out of wood at 3 AM......which is part of the reason I started this thread and why I would like to know if thermal storage will work with my current boilers and setup.

I'm no expert, I don't even own a boiler(yet anyways lol) but it sounds like you need just enough storage to get you through the night until you can fire again in the morning. Probably wont increase you efficiencies much but will save you on oil.

 

[velvetfoot]

Well I never ruled out storage, I just limited to what I can fit through a 30" door.

This outfit sells unpressurized tanks that fit through that door. You'd need a heat exchanger in the tank.
(broken link removed to http://www.americansolartechnics.com/products/heat-bank-storage-tanks/)

 

[Newfiestang]

I'm no expert, I don't even own a boiler(yet anyways lol) but it sounds like you need just enough storage to get you through the night until you can fire again in the morning. Probably wont increase you efficiencies much but will save you on oil.

Yes exactly, thats what i was hoping for. Now I just need advice on how much and where in the system this needs to get installed with minimum impact to my piping. I dont have the space for alot of storage plus whatever I choose as the tank must fit though a 30" door. I can probably fit one and maybe even two 240 gal units such as those in link below.

(broken link removed to http://www.biothermic.ca/thermal-storage)

 

[Newfiestang]

This outfit sells unpressurized tanks that fit through that door. You'd need a heat exchanger in the tank.
(broken link removed to http://www.americansolartechnics.com/products/heat-bank-storage-tanks/)

Seen ones similar to that but would rather stay with pressurized.

 

[velvetfoot]

Looking at your link, I have a Froling Energy 120 gal. buffer tank. It has a stainless coil in it for making hot water. It works great down to 120. Too small for you. You're probably looking at 500 gal.

 

[velvetfoot]

Hey, if you're looking for a cheap improvement, how about an automatic vent damper for your oil boiler? I put one on my oil boiler several years ago and it's still working great. It blocks off the chimney when the boiler isn't running, has several safety interlocks, etc.

As long as the wood boiler isn't vented into the same chimney, lol.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Field-Controls-OVD-6-6-Oil-Vent-Damper-11822000-p

 

[Newfiestang]

Looking at your link, I have a Froling Energy 120 gal. buffer tank. It has a stainless coil in it for making hot water. It works great down to 120. Too small for you. You're probably looking at 500 gal.

Well, yes maybe, but even one of their 240 gal would help an it can fit. If not enough then 2 x 240 gal should do it. Once again just need advise on how to incorporate this in my existing system. I've attached the dwg in the first post of my existing setup. I was thinking that I could just the storage between pump 'D' and the oil boiler.

 

[Newfiestang]

Hey, if you're looking for a cheap improvement, how about an automatic vent damper for your oil boiler? I put one on my oil boiler several years ago and it's still working great. It blocks off the chimney when the boiler isn't running, has several safety interlocks, etc.

As long as the wood boiler isn't vented into the same chimney, lol.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Field-Controls-OVD-6-6-Oil-Vent-Damper-11822000-p

Interesting. My wood and oil share the same outside chimney but each boiler has its own internal piping so I could indeed install this device. Now, just have to find a supplier in Canada. THanks

 

[maple1]

I'm not so sure storage would help with this boiler. In one place you said the boiler can make more heat than you use, but it will only last 4 hours overnight? Those are kind of conflicting messages. I know with my old boiler, storage would have been useless, since it could barley keep up with keeping the house warm. And it had similar design as yours - just an ordinary water jacket, with a more or less straight path from the firebox to the chimney - lots of wasted heat up the chimney.

If you think the boiler can make extra heat you can put to storage & want a better idea if it can or not, try this - rather than doing a setback on your thermostat, do a set forward. Set the heat up a couple degrees more than you usually would, a few hours before you hit the hay. Then on the way to bed, set it down to normal temp. See what that does. You would in a way be using the house for storage. It should get you further through the night.

Something else that can hurt efficiency is too much chimney draft, and air leakage past the draft control. You mentioned dumping a lot - that shouldn't really happen with proper draft & draft control. Do you have a stove pipe thermometer?

 

[Newfiestang]

I'm not so sure storage would help with this boiler. In one place you said the boiler can make more heat than you use, but it will only last 4 hours overnight? Those are kind of conflicting messages. I know with my old boiler, storage would have been useless, since it could barley keep up with keeping the house warm. And it had similar design as yours - just an ordinary water jacket, with a more or less straight path from the firebox to the chimney - lots of wasted heat up the chimney.

If you think the boiler can make extra heat you can put to storage & want a better idea if it can or not, try this - rather than doing a setback on your thermostat, do a set forward. Set the heat up a couple degrees more than you usually would, a few hours before you hit the hay. Then on the way to bed, set it down to normal temp. See what that does. You would in a way be using the house for storage. It should get you further through the night.

Something else that can hurt efficiency is too much chimney draft, and air leakage past the draft control. You mentioned dumping a lot - that shouldn't really happen with proper draft & draft control. Do you have a stove pipe thermometer?

Well if i said dumping alot maybe that was misleading, depends on what alot is i guess. It really depends on the day and demand on the system which I'm sure is the case with all heating systems of this nature.

There are a few really cold days every year where its blowing 100+ km/h that the boiler will have trouble keeping the house warm and needs the oil to fire sometimes as well to help, but most days I can hear the basement zone fire even though the thermostat is set lower than ambient temp. This is easy to detect as the pex is only ran in the basement zone and makes quite a bit of noise with 200 deg water hitting it. Also proven by the ambient temp in that space 2 or 3 degrees higher than setpoint.

I realize that I can probably be resolved some of the dumping by a slight adjustment on my draft door thermostat and have it shut at 190 deg instead of 195 or 200 it is currently set to. The dump is set at 205 so i recognize its close but with the low volume of water in both boilers if I have say two or three zones cut in the one time it will quickly pull down the water temp in both boilers......thus I find it better to run the boiler at close to 200 but dont like to let the temp get close to 210. Another reason why i feel storage will help.

Also, another reason why I feel storage will work. My father in law had the exact same setup as mine but last year decided to remove his oil boiler and install an in line electric furnace and it was notice very quickly that the thermal storage, as little as it was providing, was causing his wood boiler to draw down alot faster than when the oil boiler was in the system.

So for those reasons I feel that some (not sure how much) will help buffer the draw down on high demands as well as provide some storage after the wood boiler depletes. Heck even if i only get two hours out of 240 or 500 gallons it may pay off over 5 or 10 years.

With that said if everyone feels this is a wasted venture with this setup than I wont bother, thats the great thing about forums i guess, multiple views.

 

[maple1]

Not sure it's wasted - just don't know.

I would also likely lower my high temp setting some. Mine was at 180 I think.

The hotter you keep it, the more heat will go up the chimney.

I could get the night out of mine, by keeping the heat up until I went to bed, and stuffing to the gills when I did. I had to stay up later than I wanted to, and get up earlier than I wanted - at which time there would just be coals left. But the oil didn't usually cut in. That was usually 7 hours or so? But I was also at times dealing with a big pile of coals that didn't give of enough heat to send much to the house, and also wouldn't let me get a lot of wood in.

Sure don't miss those days - along with the chimney cleaning.

 

[Newfiestang]

Not sure it's wasted - just don't know.

I would also likely lower my high temp setting some. Mine was at 180 I think.

The hotter you keep it, the more heat will go up the chimney.

I could get the night out of mine, by keeping the heat up until I went to bed, and stuffing to the gills when I did. I had to stay up later than I wanted to, and get up earlier than I wanted - at which time there would just be coals left. But the oil didn't usually cut in. That was usually 7 hours or so? But I was also at times dealing with a big pile of coals that didn't give of enough heat to send much to the house, and also wouldn't let me get a lot of wood in.

Sure don't miss those days - along with the chimney cleaning.

Ya I hear ya on the coals, i see that as well sometimes but its better than having to relight that bugger.

I dont think running at 180 will cut it in my house, that will only give me 10 deg to play with before the oil takes over with my current settings on the switch-over thermostat plus likely only about 140 to 160 deg water hitting the rads furthest away.

Just curious, what are some manufacturers of other more efficient boilers. Never really thought of replacing my boiler but maybe I should start looking at it. Would love a gasifier but I think those things are well north of 10K CDN.

And yes I clean my chimney every six weeks during the burn season. Cant say that there is alot in them but just piece of mind....i did have one nasty fire when i first moved into the house.

 

[maple1]

I would also then reduce my oil cut-in. Maybe to the 150 range. If the diff is then set to 30 so cut out is 180, that should give lots of hot water to your baseboards. (Assuming baseboards?). Or 155 with 25 diff. 160 water vs. 180 water in the rads will just lead to the water circulating longer - should still heat your home. Might struggle recovering but should do the job. Unless your baseboard is undersized. Doing all that should cut your wood & oil consumption.

My father has an older Kerr that has tubes - I'm pretty sure it would benefit from storage. Biasi has decent heat exchange, I think. Not sure of others - but tubes or multi pass heat exchanging (while being easy to clean) are key, and should be able to utilize storage.