Obsessive compulsive behavior!

[oldspark]

On top of my other concerns of the new stove I now seem to have another problem, it seems to be forming more cresote that the other stove did in 30 years, that is with running the stove temp in the "yellow" zone on the temp sensor and even higher than I ever did with the old stove, all my wood is below 20%. This I really dont understand so it does look like the Nashua might go back in over the holidays because I dont know what else to do and do not want to run the risk of a chimney fire.
It is icy on the roof now but going up there as soon as possible.

 

[soupy1957]

Ah the "Yellow Zone." My favorite settling point. Just left of the "Red Zone."

-Soupy1957

 

[Troutchaser]

Oldspark, define, "forming creosote".

 

[madison]

From woodheat.org
1. On average, advanced, EPA certified stoves are about one-third more efficient than the old box, pot belly, or step stoves, and almost all of the currently available central wood heating furnaces and boilers. That’s one-third less cost if you buy firewood, or one-third less cutting, hauling and stacking if you cut your own. Although this higher efficiency is a by-product of mandatory emissions limits, it has made the EPA rules a winner for both the environment and stove users. The extra cost of advanced technology is about $200 per stove. Over just two seasons of wood burning the greater efficiency of the stove will more than compensate for the higher initial cost.
2. Advanced stoves produce about 90 percent less particulate matter - smoke - than older stoves. After a fire is ignited, you should see no visible smoke from the chimney, so neighbors won't complain and the foul smell, and thick smoke won't blanket your yard either.
3. Fires ignite more easily and burn more completely in these new stoves. The result is a far more convenient and pleasurable wood burning experience.
4. Virtually all the new stoves have a glass panel in their door and an air-wash system to keep it clear. This not only means being able to monitor the fire and adjust it periodically to get a perfect burn, but the fire itself is spectacular to watch. No fire in a conventional stove or fireplace can compare with the beauty of an efficient wood fire.
5. Ninety percent less smoke means 90 percent less creosote. This gives two important benefits. First, the chance of chimney fire is virtually eliminated, as long as the stove is operated correctly and reasonable maintenance is done. And second, the flue pipe and chimney will need cleaning much less frequently, which is another way the new technology stoves save time and money.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

Test your sensor. They are like X-Wives...Sometime you can believe them...Sometimes don't wastes your time.
Put it in the oven and test it.

 

[Jags]

Yellow, red, green - don't mean much. Post up some real numbers. If you have good fuel - good draft - good habits - there ain't no reason a new stove should be clogging up a stack.

 

[Jags]

Hey sparky - from another post of yours I think I may have isolated your problem:

My wife has to run the stove when I am gone for work, she runs it like the old one, not very efficient but so far she has stayed warm.

 

[oldspark]

Madison you expalin to me how you run your stove and see if it is than much different then me.

 

[madison]

Sure, most of the below was learned by reading, trial/error and learning, from users willing to share their experience on this site. And I know you think i am razzing you, I am not. Monitors (ie temp probes) are tools, which, can be weapons when used without common sense or trusting them entirely-- ie trusting "the yellow zone". I think we all know folks who have all the woodworking gizmo's but couldn't cut or nail straight. And in regards to the previous sentence, I think which is why I am bothering to type all of this, you may be more likely to have a chimney fire, by trusting the gizmo's "yellow zone" as being "safe" -- ie your observation of creosote buildup during your operation in "the yellow zone".

Off the pedestal and to the hearth:

1. There is no temp probe in my flue, I considered it during the installation, but didn't want to drill a hole in the new expensive flue i had installed. flue is interior class a, cleaned once per yr. flue is at least 30+ feet - see pics in sig link. I do not own a IR gun, moisture reader or functioning stove top thermometer.
2. I open the air control ALL the way to the left whenever: starting a fire, opening the stove door to poke, reloading the stove, burning down coals. when my a$$ gets cold -- i will open the air control to produce more heat.
3. After closing the stove door when reloading/starting a fire, I leave the air control completely open until the wood is engulfed in flames and charred - I resist all temptations to close the primary air until the fire is established. The first months I owned the stove, I did NOT do this as I was obsessed with maximizing burn time and the psychedelic light show. I snuffed many fires, and cleaned my glass every other day with this practice, as well as reducing the stove top temp which I was obsessed with as well.
4. After the fire is established with the air control completely open, I will reduce the air control in multiple stages, 3/4 open, 1/2 open, 1/4 open "gnats eyelash open" and then RARELY completely closed. Rarely will I load wood, and immediately close the air control. Sometimes the stages are few and shorter in duration. I will load the stove ~ 1/2 hr prior to bed, leaving for work etc to allow the above.

Note, this stove is in the kitchen/family room, NOT in a basement, so it is easily accessible for multiple steps in #4, if your stove is inconveniently located, good luck and have the fire department on speed dial.

5. when i think the chimney needs a cleaning, i fill the stove with wood, and leave the air control open for longer than normal - when the stove top spring loaded thermometer was functioning, stove top temp would approach 700-800. I did put the thing on my pizza stone - and it was fairly close to the oven temps up to the oven limits. see step 6 - "blowing the carbon out"

I've examined my chimney during professional cleanings - spouse requirement - and both at the top and bottom there was fine grey "dust" - no buildup of tar etc.

Stove runs 24/7 from whenever required - not yet this yr. - and with the blower added after the first season, heats our 3300 sq ft "glass house" when air temps are above 20 degrees, less then 20 the boiler will kick on in the early morning. When 24/7 burning , stove gets loaded ~ 5 am, 2 pm, dinner time, ~ 10-11 pm.

6. During the "shoulder season" 1/4 Super Cedar only- no newspaper used when intermittent burning - I leave the air control open a bit more than during the 24/7 burn times - just to "blow the carbon out" like I used to do with my Dad's '63 Pontiac Lemans - which by the way, he taught and approved.

7. A fire department captain friend of mine used to tell me, that cardboard, paper etc where the main culprit for ignition of chimney fires in creosote lined chimneys and plugging of screened chimney caps. With super cedars, i do not need paper.

All typed out.

 

[oldspark]

Thank you your reply and I am running it EXACTLY like you typed. The way I run my new stove for the most part is from people on this site which except for a few I trust.
It was icy on the roof this morning so I should have waited before I posted and this post would not have happened, some condensation (I guess) mixed with some fine creosot on the new chimney cap and ran down the side of the chimney, once I got on the roof I could see it was mostly frozen water with a little black mixed in, there is some black dusting of creosote which I am going to sweep after work today.
I never had any creosote with my old stove what so ever so am surprised by the dusting this early. Once again thanks for taking the time to reply.
Edit-By the way I have NEVER had a darkened glass door.

 

[fjord]

Thank you your reply and I am running it EXACTLY like you typed. The way I run my new stove for the most part is from people on this site which except for a few I trust.
It was icy on the roof this morning so I should have waited before I posted and this post would not have happened, some condensation (I guess) mixed with some fine creosot on the new chimney cap and ran down the side of the chimney, once I got on the roof I could see it was mostly frozen water with a little black mixed in, there is some black dusting of creosote which I am going to sweep after work today.
I never had any creosote with my old stove what so ever so am surprised by the dusting this early. Once again thanks for taking the time to reply.
Edit-By the way I have NEVER had a darkened glass door.

Dear Fellow Rule Bender:
From the trenches of wood burning in one of the more Northern regions, done for many, many years, with more steel and cast and stone fireboxes than one can count, here's the scoop on wood burning.
Relax, enjoy the appliance. You'll get the hang of your particular box in time. Hey, it's an art. Using a wood stove is not like programming in C+, or setting up a web site in HTML for a client, doing a colonoscopy, or even using Semtex; it's learned behavior to tame whatever beast you've chosen to use as heat.
This is a tough time of the year to learn---it is the shoulder season (not the NFL kind Sparky ). The fires need to be small, short, and hot; too often damped down when there's too much heat. It's a good time to use that "junque" wood such as softwoods you usually throw to the side. Spruce, fir, pines, cottonwood, popple all have less density that the hardwood species we like in northern N.America.
Ah yes, the "glass" issue: leave it be. I'd rather be enjoying my favorite beverage than cleaning . The rule that you read here is frankly B.S. You heat with wood, any wood, in any EPA stove with a CLEAR CERAMIC door (ain't "glass" BTW), for any amount of time for heat, you will damp the air, ergo blackened clear ceramic. It will go away with the next hot or normal fire. Of course, if you enjoy cleaning, scraping, fussing, fiddling with the stove, by all means clean. It will keep you out of your significant other's hair.
Some unburnt debris will collect on the coolest part of your fleu: the top. It's normal. You don't ever want that thick, shiny, gummy junque collecting however. Be careful up there.
Now, you may read the more "trusted", appointed experts here who religiously (it is a religion of OCD) monitor their appliances with IR meters, M² devices, probes here and probes there, digital video tools stuck up the flue,
and they will tell you the 'correct' way to burn with Excel spreads, but all that is secondary (as in secondary burn) to what you want: HEAT.
Enjoy the ride.

JMNSFHO

 

[oldspark]

Just checked the chimney, false alarm pure dust up top, water and black stuff ran off of the new chimney cap making it look bad from the ground. Note to self-engage typing mode after all information is known and understood. Have a warm holiday! :roll:

 

[madison]

M² devices

Well put fjord.

M²'s ? If it is one of those army tanks, Sparky may want one to run over and flatten his creosote producing summit.


Spark, get off the icy roof

 

[northwinds]

Just checked the chimney, false alarm pure dust up top, water and black stuff ran off of the new chimney cap making it look bad from the ground. Note to self-engage typing mode after all information is known and understood. Have a warm holiday! :roll:

Better a false alarm than a real one. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[fjord]

Just checked the chimney, false alarm pure dust up top, water and black stuff ran off of the new chimney cap making it look bad from the ground. Note to self-engage typing mode after all information is known and understood. Have a warm holiday! :roll:

....and "Bob's your uncle". You're in Sparky.
Happy Thanksgiving to all......it is a great place to live, love, work, play, burn. In spite of the obvious faults.

(Sorry, I get caught up in all this technicality here. " M² " ain't the tank, it's the exaulted Moisture Meter. Pardon moi. )

 

[Battenkiller]

" M² " ain't the tank, it's the exaulted Moisture Meter.

Forget the meter, it's the exalted MC (moisture content) that's the problem. The meter just gives them something to verify their fears with:

"Just like I thought... I cut and stacked my wood in the spring, and now my meter tells me it's only down to 20.15% MC. Looks like no burning in that new EPA stove this year or I'll cause a chimney fire for sure."

Wood burns when it's ready to burn, nothing like the stove itself to tell you if it's ready or not.

That said, I rather enjoy all the tweaking I started since joining this place. Never used a moisture meter or even a flue thermometer until last year, and their inclusion into my practices has hardly caused any loss of sleep on my part. 99% of folks just put wood in the stove and forget about it. The other 1% of burners are right here on this forum. We don't just want to burn, we seek a better burn, and we enjoy helping out new burners and old burners with new stoves in whatever way works for them. Otherwise, what's the point? To post endless pics of wood stacks so folks can chime in with, "Lookin' good"?

If devices and gizmos and gadgets all lead to superior results for some, what do you care? Don't use them. I'm sure no one here will take umbrage.

 

[fjord]

" M² " ain't the tank, it's the exaulted Moisture Meter.

Forget the meter, it's the exalted MC (moisture content) that's the problem. The meter just gives them something to verify their fears with:

"Just like I thought... I cut and stacked my wood in the spring, and now my meter tells me it's only down to 20.15% MC. Looks like no burning in that new EPA stove this year or I'll cause a chimney fire for sure."

Wood burns when it's ready to burn, nothing like the stove itself to tell you if it's ready or not.

That said, I rather enjoy all the tweaking I started since joining this place. Never used a moisture meter or even a flue thermometer until last year, and their inclusion into my practices has hardly caused any loss of sleep on my part. 99% of folks just put wood in the stove and forget about it. The other 1% of burners are right here on this forum. We don't just want to burn, we seek a better burn, and we enjoy helping out new burners and old burners with new stoves in whatever way works for them. Otherwise, what's the point? To post endless pics of wood stacks so folks can chime in with, "Lookin' good"?

If devices and gizmos and gadgets all lead to superior results for some, what do you care? Don't use them. I'm sure no one here will take umbrage.

Now that's one stove I haven't tried yet: The Umbrage.

As for the "other 1% of burners ...right here..." : "...do you want tuna with good taste, or tuna that tastes good? "

Yes, lookin good. Tweak away.

 

[DanCorcoran]

And just for the record, to ensure that we all have a Happy Thanksgiving, a clarification:

"Obsessive compulsive behavior!"

No such animal..."compulsive" refers to behavior, "obsessive" refers to thoughts. Thus, you are compelled to do something repeatedly, for no good reason, and you think of something obsessively, for no good reason.

P.S. This post is in service of my obsession with the accurate use of the English language.

 

[oldspark]

And just for the record, to ensure that we all have a Happy Thanksgiving, a clarification:

"Obsessive compulsive behavior!"

No such animal..."compulsive" refers to behavior, "obsessive" refers to thoughts. Thus, you are compelled to do something repeatedly, for no good reason, and you think of something obsessively, for no good reason.

P.S. This post is in service of my obsession with the accurate use of the English language.

OK how about OCD, make you feel better? :cheese:

 

[fjord]

And just for the record, to ensure that we all have a Happy Thanksgiving, a clarification:
"Obsessive compulsive behavior!"
No such animal..."compulsive" refers to behavior, "obsessive" refers to thoughts. Thus, you are compelled to do something repeatedly, for no good reason, and you think of something obsessively, for no good reason.
P.S. This post is in service of my obsession with the accurate use of the English language.

Dear Dan:
You have failed according to our former neighbor E.B.White, in your service of English language accuracy.
O.C.D. is a long utilized disorder in the toolkit of Psychiatry in many many varieties. e.g the compulsion to always be right.
The concept "OCD" is the sum of its parts and never the parts.
Be warned.

 

[LLigetfa]

Test your sensor. They are like X-Wives...Sometime you can believe them...Sometimes don't wastes your time.
Put it in the oven and test it.

What if you don't trust your oven?

I don't trust stove thermometers. Never owned one, probably never will. Wouldn't know where to put it.

I can generally tell by the colour of the metal whether or not to panic. Cherry red is time to take notice and yeller can scare a feller.

 

[gibson]

I have found that there are times when the chimney cap needs a little bit of attention, not necessarily the flue. Most of the time, when the weather gets bad, it'll get cleaned out on it's own.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

Test your sensor. They are like X-Wives...Sometime you can believe them...Sometimes don't wastes your time.
Put it in the oven and test it.

What if you don't trust your oven?

I don't trust stove thermometers. Never owned one, probably never will. Wouldn't know where to put it.

I can generally tell by the colour of the metal whether or not to panic. Cherry red is time to take notice and yeller can scare a feller.

If you think you might be at the top limit of her stove.

Throw another log on.... Sit back and enjoy the show.

Or go home to your wife?

We only go around once!

 

[soupy1957]

"Dear Fellow Rule Bender:
From the trenches of wood burning in one of the more Northern regions, done for many, many years, with more steel and cast and stone fireboxes than one can count, here’s the scoop on wood burning.
Relax, enjoy the appliance. You’ll get the hang of your particular box in time. Hey, it’s an art. Using a wood stove is not like programming in C+, or setting up a web site in HTML for a client, doing a colonoscopy, or even using Semtex; it’s learned behavior to tame whatever beast you’ve chosen to use as heat.
This is a tough time of the year to learn—-it is the shoulder season (not the NFL kind Sparky ). The fires need to be small, short, and hot; too often damped down when there’s too much heat. It’s a good time to use that “junque” wood such as softwoods you usually throw to the side. Spruce, fir, pines, cottonwood, popple all have less density that the hardwood species we like in northern N.America.
Ah yes, the “glass” issue: leave it be. I’d rather be enjoying my favorite beverage than cleaning . The rule that you read here is frankly B.S. You heat with wood, any wood, in any EPA stove with a CLEAR CERAMIC door (ain’t “glass” BTW), for any amount of time for heat, you will damp the air, ergo blackened clear ceramic. It will go away with the next hot or normal fire. Of course, if you enjoy cleaning, scraping, fussing, fiddling with the stove, by all means clean. It will keep you out of your significant other’s hair.
Some unburnt debris will collect on the coolest part of your fleu: the top. It’s normal. You don’t ever want that thick, shiny, gummy junque collecting however. Be careful up there.
Now, you may read the more “trusted”, appointed experts here who religiously (it is a religion of OCD) monitor their appliances with IR meters, M² devices, probes here and probes there, digital video tools stuck up the flue,
and they will tell you the ‘correct’ way to burn with Excel spreads, but all that is secondary (as in secondary burn) to what you want: HEAT."

+1

-Soupy1957

 

[fjord]

"Thank you.......thank you very much." Elvis (Presley)

Happy Thanksgiving